Does Jediism have a purpose, and if so, what is it?

27 Feb 2022 09:18 #366535 by Proteus
I predict many will want to take a purely subjective approach (and I appreciate this), but I would like to talk about this through an objective lens.

Does Jediism have a particular, objective purpose, and if so, what do you think it is?

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27 Feb 2022 09:30 #366536 by Diana W
In a way it would seem that Jediism all by itself is an ideal way to approach, and possibly change society from individual instances. What I mean is, one person at a time. If the creed and beliefs were upheld with every interaction, one would live by example and it has a chance of being a positive impact on those they come by. A positive enough impact that it is life changing for those who need a better way to be.


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27 Feb 2022 11:33 - 27 Feb 2022 11:34 #366537 by River
Compassionate connection for grassroots change, maybe

I'm not really sure how to be objective about a question like this if I'm honest - belief is such a personal idea to me - but this is my best stab at it :side:
Last edit: 27 Feb 2022 11:34 by River.
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01 Mar 2022 04:20 #366581 by Adder
Well the subjective understanding of it does reflect what my objective understanding would be so I might not be that good at delineating myself.

To me it refines oneself in a way which generates efficiencies and performance enhancement in the mental and 'spiritual' domain. Now those enhancements are not necessarily translated across into objective reality outside of ones own subjective experience of it, but the idea is that it could and hopefully would (translate across).
I usually like to then project that out and extrapolate its potentials and imagine it as almost a religion of spaceflight aka psychology of performance and health in Space! But to wind that back to Earth.... generates performance advantages that might be able to excel in arduous tasks such that the normal stuff becomes a walk in the park. Leaving more time to appreciative, healthy, engaged and creative as a function of whatever ones environment one finds themselves within.

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01 Mar 2022 06:35 #366585 by Zenith Felwood
First I want to thank you for this great question. I think at times we all tend to question this. I myself very much so. To answer this question to your benefit I would have to ask you a question . . . What is Jediism to you?

On a general scale Jediism could be many things such as but not limited to community, a sense of belonging, knowledge, truth, spiritual, and emotional wellbeing. For me it maybe different or the very same as you but only you can decide what purpose it has for you. I can speak for me alone. I can speculate based on information you provide. Jediism is subjective and is meant to be subjective as its universal for all perspectives and view points right or wrong its the path that one sets out for themselves. I believe Its through knowledge and self reflection that we will find our way. The truth could be that or something different. I do hope you find it. As I'm looking for my path too.
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01 Mar 2022 07:34 #366589 by Vincent Causse
So Many humans feel disconnected from nature and from the rest of the universe as well, this leads to where we re now, a ruined environment and very difficult relation between our self. So whatever name we call the force and whatever we all think it is , Jediism s purpose seems to be to open our eyes about the Forces connections, the relationship we actually have knowing or unknowingly with all things and all living beings from. Indra s net is for me a good metaphor to illustrate the effect of the Forces connection, now learning and being aware of those can help us contribute to our society more positively.
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02 Mar 2022 22:52 #366615 by Streen
It used to be about learning esoteric, spiritual ideals, back in the 90's.

Now it's more of a good way to bring people together, regardless of what we learn from it. It's something to believe in, and sometimes that's all we need.

There is a fine line between insight and insanity.
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03 Mar 2022 17:59 #366642 by Alethea Thompson
From 27 Feb. I know that you mentioned you'd like us to put this in our personal Journals, Proteus- but I think there is value in writing thoughts in here :)

Vincent Causse — so i m back, tea s made
purpose ! i was seing it from a human point of view i guess, some thing made for a reason
So the question sound like it means if Jediism was made for a reason or a particular purpose

Proteus — Do we mean its original purpose or if that purpose is refined over time, the new one?

Vincent Causse — lets say original purpose to start with !
I guess that Star wars it self was made with an idea in mind, create a myth
most art have a goal and message in mind !

Proteus — Do you want to go back that far or just to the original purpose of the Jediism movement? Or even to the purpose of TOTJO specifically even?

Vincent Causse — what do you think ?

Proteus — I don't know actually 
I guess each of them has their values in the topic 
But it might be easier to stick to one

Vincent Causse — when watching the videos of JC from the first IP it really seemed that the movie WAS made with creating a new myth in mind
i ve the habit to look at things from too far so original subjects get diluted in the context

Proteus — I guess when I made the topic, I was mostly thinking about the Jediism movement, after the fact of the films.

Vincent Causse — like i cant talk about human history without talking about prehistory as far as possible
did you ask the question thinking about the personal level ?
what purpose does Jediism has for each of us >?

Proteus — No
I mean

Dwagoonie — when I replied to the post I had no thought about Star Wars and the Jedi in the series. But how it can work in the real world without personal perspective on it

Proteus — Mostly it was to see what different people would say from their point of view what they think the objective purpose is.

Vincent Causse — So that would mean that we have some form of unity

Proteus — I took that approach because it has become so popular for the community to cling to "whatever you want it to be" -ism, that any topic its applied to loses its meaning.

Vincent Causse — with a commun goal

Vincent Causse — it does !?

Proteus — People begin to not be able to have a clear discussion in that vein.

Vincent Causse — i guess people have this tendency more and more

Proteus — Instead of seeking to understand a common ground, it becomes more about "what I want" over "what this really is".

Vincent Causse — humans have the need to find others who have the exact same idea of belief, so the need as well to write down and create base doctrines and sets of rules
I ve been wondering if religions like Christianity and Islam started with a purpose . I do think they did had a political purpose to start with
to regroup as much people under one umbrella, using and mixing already existing belief
and practices
Now Jediism is like you said a way of life, a bit like Buddhism, with out the practices

Proteus — Do you think Jediism simply shares its purpose from the purposes of religion, or do you think it is distinct by its own virtues?

Vincent Causse — I dont see Jediisme as a religion but the problem will always come from what some people want to make out of it !

Proteus — Well, if we are talking about an objective purpose, should we approach it from what we think or what is explicitly stated outside of our personal views?
For example, the TOTJO page describes Jediism as a religion and TOTJO, a church.

Vincent Causse — It does doesnt it, that is one of the thing that slightly bother me in some ways
what i do like is the main philosophy, it is my own only more developed in some ways
The idea of the Force is more commun than simply from star wars, when scientist talk about atoms they say that neutrons and electrons are held together by " force" if i m right. In general is a form of guide line to have a life as well balance as possible.

Proteus — So, would you say, then, that its purpose is to bring together people who have common beliefs about the concept of the Force as well as the want to develop healthy moral aptitude together for society?

Vincent Causse — the second part of your answer i guess
i mean humans commun moral value should be based on compassion

The idea of the Force really depend on people
what re ur views?

Proteus — If everyone in Jediism had a completely different view of the what the Force is, would it remain necessary for the concept to exist between them anymore, rather than just be referred to by something different to each person? 

Vincent Causse — 
Well the force is an old concept isnt it ! i call it mother nature

Proteus — I guess that's a good example of what my question gets at.
People here say The Force instead of The Universe, or The Force instead of "God", or The Force instead of mother nature.

Vincent Causse — yes they do or they dont ! maybe they accept that it s all the same !

Alethea — I think the acknowledgment in using “the Force” is to illustrate that we acknowledge and accept everyone interacts with this something larger differently.

Vincent Causse — many people like the fact that we all respect each other s views and do not judge

Proteus — Hm. Okay, so by The Force, we might mean "something ephemerally larger than us"?

Alethea — looks up ephemeral

Vincent Causse — well say for Pagans who believe in many godesses and gods they technically represent the many faces or power of nature
well we are the ephemera here
we re the dust of the univers our life does not matter

Dwagoonie — I think the use of "the force" in our community is to agree to a common term we can all relate to. For myself, it is "the universe" or "all energy"

Alethea — I don’t think that word quite picks it up? Some interact with it as a metaphor, while others perceive it as an eternal energy (the list carried on). What we all seem to believe is that whether it’s a metaphor or something we can interact with physically/supernaturally, is that it explains pieces of the world (in past, present and future) other things don’t. 

Proteus — So, the ineffable then? 
Is it spiritual, or physical, or both I guess?

Alethea — Spiritual, Physical, Both, and Niether.

Vincent Causse — too great or extreme to be expressed or described in words.
Science does help alot to explain the universe but there are things that get out of our grasp like time

Alethea — Take the metaphor approach I’ve witnessed some take on as a belief- it’s not exactly any of those until someone collapses a focus on it’s relevance. The metaphor being a way to relate to the intricate web of life. It helps explain the role of environment, the food chain and interpersonal relationships in the world around us. To one person that may be scientific common sense and considered physical, and another a spiritual revelation. While yet another simply places it in the category of Philosophy but relates philosophy as neither physical nor spiritual.

Vincent Causse — i guess you re making a point here, as we all have different way to learn we as well have different ways to understand things and different needs. Some people will feel happy with a Scientific understanding of life while others need to believe in something that will give them a sense of purpose

Proteus —@Alethea It sounds like something described by systems theory then.

Vincent Causse — In the end we re all the same species, the same psych like Joseph Campbell said, we could all agree to one thing and have our own idea in the details about it
Realising that we are all talking about the same Elephant

Proteus — Perhaps The Force may be a term to describe a commonly shared essence of all things within all realms of experience and description that we otherwise have no practical term for?

Vincent Causse — Dont we all call tomatoes tomatoes but in different languages
where ever it is, it s still a fruit and we re all eating it

J. K. Barger — I think the (semantic) field of nuance that surrounds “the Force” is what makes it the “spiritual common denominator” what it is. 

J. K. Barger — Lmfao

Proteus — "spiritual common denominator"

J. K. Barger — Take it if you like it. It’s just a “short hand” descriptor I use in my writings.
Or, dissect it if you think it’s erroneous

Proteus — So, where might this idea of the Force fit in to the purpose of Jediism?

Vincent Causse — so Jediism as a purpose ?!

Proteus — Sure

Vincent Causse — with plans and a goal

Proteus — A function, a use, a value 
(such a mechanical idea, I know, I'm sorry)

J. K. Barger — The purpose of Jediism in RL, or in the examples set by the fiction? 

Vincent Causse — oh man

Proteus — In real life

Vincent Causse — or is it like a fire (could be simply to burn some bits of wood and weed) that becomes a good place to come around to keep warm 

Proteus — What does a fire do?
What makes fire fire?

J. K. Barger — I’d have to say that our RL motivation is exactly the same as in the fiction: to provide/observe a *universally relevant” way of acknowledging, connecting to, and feeling the fundamental nature of reality. 

Vincent Causse — it has various uses ! fire does not have a purpose but it can keep people nice and warm

J. K. Barger — I don’t know if that answered the Q @Proteus

Vincent Causse — universal can be difficult, like we were talking about darkness or the Yin and Yang symbol, one side of the planet see the black as the dark side and the other side of the planet the opposite

Proteus — It even sounds like a pretty relevant description for a purpose for religion in general (or even spirituality in general)

Proteus — Perhaps by "universal" we may mean "beyond the perceptions of duality"
or even "preceding the perceptions of duality"
Existence before essence
Would we say the Force exists beyond our perceptions of duality?

Alethea — Not Jediism, but both Jedi Realists and Pragmatic Jedi unite under the purpose of improving the world around them because that’s what our fictional counterparts pursued.

Vincent Causse — I wouldnt even say that the main subject is the Force, but compassion

Alethea — Because the idea of the Jedi was to bring balance to the Force itself, not just within themselves.

J. K. Barger — I’m not sure I’m getting your point?

Alethea — Which is how the Force plays into the purpose

J. K. Barger — We do- so much so that the micro and macro cosmic world views were referred to as the “Universal” and “Living” Force.

Proteus — What do you mean by "not Jediism" in regards to improving the world?

Vincent Causse — well the west associate black and darkness, white with good and the light, it does not mean the same for others around the planet

Alethea — I mean I’m not speaking for Jediism because it seems we haven’t codified what the purpose of Jediism is.

J. K. Barger — This is what I mean. “One verse/song”. Perhaps a better word to distinguish the micro/macro aspects would be: “Fundamental (spiritual) common denominator”?

J. K. Barger — I understand now, but I don’t think that is quite the meaning I was getting at. (Sorry, I just woke up) Water is universal to life, but it has many different archetypal associations. I think this is what I mean.

J. K. Barger — Let’s stay on this for a minute.

Vincent Causse — The force to me ultimately represent connections

Proteus — The dialogue I'm seeing here is quite good I think. It's adding a lot of color and depth to the understanding I've been hoping to develop lately.

J. K. Barger — Hotel balcony after we did a full day/night at Magic Kingdom

Vincent Causse — it seems that humans lack the feeling of being connected with it all. Many religions create separations
not caring about our direct environment because one believe in an after life in a distant heaven is a sign of disconnection
So for me it s not so much about what the Force is but what are the effects

J. K. Barger — I’m getting something loose in my head about the purpose of “the Force” is to provide a (limited yet universally relatable) means of feeling/intuiting/knowing/embodying the unlimited. How’s that?

Proteus — The Force being a term to refer to the otherwise unknowable essence that all things and experiences share, seems to be a way of pointing out the bond we share with everything we experience, and so, Jediism sounds like a study, cultivation, and education toward the awareness of that bonding. 

J. K. Barger — Ahhh snap!!! We were riding the same wave !!!

Vincent Causse — hard to say that the Force has a purpose !
but i think i ve my own answer that i ll write on the website

Proteus — I might say the Force precedes any idea of "purpose".
But that is my own view
Others might well think that the Force is something entirely different than something preceding anything. Idk. haha
I do run into those people from time to time.

J. K. Barger — I think this is a heuristic division and second-tier application. This is exactly what created the First Schism, who’s adherents to the “let’s help the World” school ended up becoming the Classical Jedi, who in turn, botched the whole dang thang.

J. K. Barger — It does. Which drives another point: “the difference between WHAT and WHY.” Which I think we are focused on the WHAT atm, because the WHY is another bag. 

Proteus — I feel like we're talking like voices in Alex's head without Alex being here right now. 

J. K. Barger — Lmfao
I call the lowbrow French accent

Proteus — Though we're missing all the references to all of his favorite philosphers.
Hurry, someone say something about Bauldrillard!

J. K. Barger — Lmfao
 If we could actually hammer something out, WITHOUT referring to philosophers proper, I think we would have the foundation of a “native/indigenous/ original?” Force Philosohy. (Or Jedi Philosophy, which I think is relevant, but nonetheless, second-tier to what we are doing now with Force Philosophy.)

Vincent Causse — is that main to be Rex ???

J. K. Barger — Agreed. Can we find anywhere in the fiction that supports or contradicts this?

Vincent Causse — i do agree with this, the connections

Proteus — Honestly, I was thinking a lot about what Alex and others were talking about yesterday about how we use fiction to try to legitimize our real life rather than the other way around, so I don't know how to really approach this authentically.
I felt there was a lot of merit to what they were saying, so I'm keeping that in mind.

J. K. Barger — I get that. And I get grounding it in RL. But if anyone wants to use the words “Jedi” or “the Force”, understanding the impetus that Lucas’s work gave to it is absolutely necessary. Not only to legitimize our usage to the world, but to give coherence within ourselves as an organized body under said descriptors.
Personally, I think the it goes beyond both, but to move into that kind of spacious understanding, it’s helpful to move past both to something that holds both.
Which I don’t think would be hard, since we (loosely) agreed that the Force is beyond time or place (because it points to the fundamental nature of the universe.)

Proteus — So, are we saying the legitimization should lie beyond the fiction then, but just so happens to exist within it any way?

J. K. Barger — In true nondual fashion, yep

Proteus — Ok

J. K. Barger —Further, I think there might be a third aspect of this: pointing out how the RL inspired the Fiction and how a real expression of Force Realism/philosophy can be had without recourse to fiction or tradition.
Once that is identified, only then can we take “what we know” and apply it consciously/intent fully towards “what we do”, like @Alethea was pointing out.
Which, even by then, I admit might be a gamble, but perhaps one not worth missing?

Proteus — @J. K. Barger @Alethea @Vincent Causse @Dwagoonie I have a request. Would you guys each be down with writing about what we've explored in this discussion here in our respective journals? Like, what thoughts you guys have had during it (me as well of course)?

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Setanaoko Oceana

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03 Mar 2022 17:59 - 03 Mar 2022 18:00 #366643 by Alethea Thompson
Proteus wrote — I took that approach because it has become so popular for the community to cling to "whatever you want it to be" -ism, that any topic its applied to loses its meaning. Instead of seeking to understand a common ground, it becomes more about "what I want" over "what this really is".

To expand on what I said in the chat: Not Jediism, but both Jedi Realists and Pragmatic Jedi unite under the purpose of improving the world around them because that’s what our fictional counterparts pursued.

J.K. Barger pointed out that “I think this is a heuristic division and second-tier application. This is exactly what created the First Schism, who’s adherents to the “let’s help the World” school ended up becoming the Classical Jedi, who in turn, botched the whole dang thang.”

I think that J.K. makes a good point. Well, I can’t really say that his line of thought is the one I have, based on what I read in his words. So to give my own interpretation (and JK, feel free to clarify what you meant here, especially if I misread you) -

One of the problems with what has become the “Classical Jedi” is that in its pursuit of improving the world, there is a lack of discussion on the values which inform how that is intended to be done from the Jedi Perspective. Many who stick by the idea that Jedi improve the world, are looking for a purpose and latching onto whatever purpose the majority of their circle are speaking on.

For example, instead of approaching the problem with the 3 core tenets (Focus, Knowledge & Wisdom) and the Jedi Code (Emotion…Peace; Ignorance…Knowledge; Passion…Serenity; Chaos…Harmony; Death…the Force), they are looking towards what their peers are doing to advance change. One could say this is one method of following the “Will of the Force” by simply letting the stream carry you. But that’s not how the Jedi Philosophy teaches you to navigate the waters. Instead, it teaches you that amateur navigation can cause more problems (Knowledge), that in order to navigate you need to be observant (Focus) and that you need to use both of these together to read when to exit and walk the riverside or when to bank left or right (Wisdom). You use the Jedi Code to keep your pride from getting you sucked under because you thought you could do more than you actually could.

What I am considering as the current “Classical Jedi” model does need a great deal of improvement. The purpose needs refinement, it can’t just be encapsulated in a slogan. It’s not just misleading, it’s exactly what got us here in the first place.

In my most recent exploration in my B.Div journal (on the Banyan Deer), I mentioned the concept of a Personal Hero being there to remove themselves as stumbling blocks to their immediate sphere of influence, and the Epic Hero removing stumbling blocks that cause the community as a whole to continue suffering. I think this is more the realm of Jediism and should be how “Classical Jedi” is defined. If we seek the guidance of the values, virtues and other tenets held within our doctrine, we find the Jedi way forward to remove ourselves as stumbling blocks to those in our sphere of influence and find the way forward to remove stumbling blocks in society which inflict undue suffering. By doing this (changing the man in the mirror first, then seeing if we can do anything else for the community/world), we can slowly move the world outside of the Cycles that keep the world from growing, and into a more Harmonious existence. But it has to be grounded in the philosophy in order for it to truly be “Jedi”.

By doing this, we are honoring the fictional literary works which inspired us (Star Wars Jedi), as well as Joseph Campbell’s model of what it actually means to be a hero of your own story.

Gather at the River,
Setanaoko Oceana
Last edit: 03 Mar 2022 18:00 by Alethea Thompson.
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04 Mar 2022 13:31 - 04 Mar 2022 13:46 #366664 by Carlos.Martinez3

Proteus wrote: I predict many will want to take a purely subjective approach (and I appreciate this), but I would like to talk about this through an objective lens.

Does Jediism have a particular, objective purpose, and if so, what do you think it is?

For each person here, I say to answer the question out front- My own did. My own path has a general purpose. Every day and every time I experience it and do my own reflections- it creates this flow.

What type of things have you learned by reading???
As I reflect, I find things that were UNKNOWN to me, often. It is this finding of the unknown that is my own practice. It is the ability to find and hone my own path, that makes the path for me and for others as well. As a Pastor and in active ministry - I have seen some forms of Jediism help, and harm people. I know many Jedi who can and WILL drop anything for their fellow human. I frequent those type of humans. Those who try. This is one of the key ideas behind our Mentoring here. It helps find explanations in REAL TIME for ideas portrayed on screen. It can help in this, almost every time it is seeked, sought - looked for....

Reflection can take what is out of focus or disorganized and provide clarity and organization to our own needs. It did for me. The thing I DO like about my faith is anyone can take it and apply it to their path. Where-ever their reflection can lead. That is one of the neatest things of it all- the POSSIBILITIES and the POTENTIALS are the same for everyone.

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Last edit: 04 Mar 2022 13:46 by Carlos.Martinez3.
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