"Not Serious but Sincere" - or The Romanticisation of Jediism

Adder wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: I'd say a definition based on similarities and differences, depending on what the differences are. I agree - defining something by what it's not is silly. But if there is a fundamental difference of focus and experience it may be worth having a think about.

Which is why I am asking. Are you saying realists might choose to view a capability to serve as a measure of being a Jedi? And that then must mean they are no longer a Jedi when they cease meeting those standards? Who sets the standards, and who asserts those standards upon others, and how much effort is required to discover that before making a value judgement about it?

It really sounds like the distinction is a belief in the Force to me, eg a Jediist defines themselves as believing in the Force and uses that Force to act..... while a realists uses action to define themselves. This would align with the assertion that realists base their action from philosophy and jediists approach it as a spirituality or religion.

I ask because saying a person is 'reclining comfortably in there armchairs, high above in ivory towers, and see what cherrypicked facet of Zen or Christianity can be shoehorned into the Jedi framework' is not a Jedi, to me seems to ignore that they might be there because they'd done what you might define as hard work, or unable to do it, or taking a break from it. To me being a Jedi is about all thought, all feeling, and all action. So from that proposed realist perspective, for a realist it would not be the action of the Jedi, but from a jediist perspective it could be.

And if realists use philosophy to underpin action, but do not philosophize, then how is their philosophy error checked, refined and improved!? Trial and error only works so far, and the more pedestrian the easier it is to do... the complex and dangerous stuff needs to be thought out before hand.

I'm all for realists or anyone to use their paths to motivate, but as I was saying I do not think its required or useful to attack others in the process. I think the skill in motivation being attempted by doing that is actually instead talking to the concern of the recipient regarding failure and then holding up the ideals of the directed effort itself as the goal, rather then tear other ideals down for a perception of it being better.

I've always seen the distinction between Jediists and Jedi Realists as how they relate to the Force and belief. Jediists operate from a faith-based perspective, Jedi realists from a philosophy based perspective. The Force itself doesn't play a profound role in my practice, but I've never had a strong interest in the mystic paths. My apprenticeship was undertaken with a strong mystic element though, and the Force has played a role in my path, but where I'm at now requires some real effort into the Mind arts as compared to the Spirit arts. I still use some of the techniques I was taught though.

I'd even argue against the setting of hard and fast effort standards because that runs against what I'd say is one of the entire points of the path: diversity. Back when I was in construction, under encouragement to find some way of doing good, I ended up being part of the worksite safety team, and undertook legal training to be able to support the team's rights for safety. Working in a nightclub, I'm available as mental health support and suicide intervention. I've had to do the former, but thankfully not the latter. And now, engaged as a school counsellor I facilitate the peer support network for other counsellors managed by my agency.

Of course I'm not against philosophy. It's integral to the path - but it becomes problematic when we get tied up in pointless hypotheticals, or not doing anything else but philosophizing. I'm not talking about taking a break, because hell, we all need respite and self-care at some time or another. But doing nothing? Inaction? Negative. Spending more time engaged in forum drama than actually engaged as a Jedi? Pass.

Proteus wrote: I'm wondering what went through your head when reading the thread title.

Does romaticizing Jediism affect one's approach to it? Can romanticisation make one more serious than sincere?

I think we definitely see this in new arrivals to the community. Sometimes we have newcomers attempt to take the code to its literal extremes (there is no emotion), and try to live in that very strict way we see in the films. But as time goes by and they gain more wisdom and experience and are able to interpret the code in a more moderate way.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:
If someone actually believes in star wars Jedi as real individuals and that they are one of that number by some self imposed devine decree from an internet website and as a result commit action against their perceived version of a Sith then that is no different than real life radical extremists today that commit terrible acts in the name of their God.

Driving planes into buildings is horrendous no matter how you slice it but if you believe you are a noble jedi on a divine mission to balance the force by attacking the epitame of evil that occupy that building of sith them who can ever convince you otherwise?

Probably my deepest fear for the community if Jedi continues as a religion is that we see radicals like this. Hell - we already had one dude in the short-lived Australian order who assaulted a cop on his way to "dealing with" the Sith who have "entrenched themselves in Parliament".

Rosalyn J wrote: I have enjoyed all the responses.

Manu, you've touched on something that brought another idea to mind: thst of the "black belt". This whole idea that I'm done learning once I get.

For me it has been the opposite. I have done my greatest learning as a Knight

Likewise. Some orders define knighthood as a point where we can begin to pursue the path independently, without the direct guidance of the training relationship. And in that model, we can really pursue new frontiers in our own lives.

OB1Shinobi wrote:
The serious counterpart is real education and real training.

If you want to be a warrior, join the military- they really go to war.
If you want to be able to fight, join a fight gym- they really fight.
If you want to be a healer, try medical school, or an EMT/S program, or become a nurse- they really heal people.

That sort of thing.

As someone who has gone to university to become a psychotherapist as part of walking the Jedi Path, I agree with you on the one hand. But on the other hand we get people coming to this community from all walks, and stages, of life, and sometimes this just isn't feasible, especially in places with exorbitant costs of education. I shudder to look at how much university costs for Americans. And those loans? Damn. I also think, expecting people to get out of... well, everyday jobs, and go into specialty positions, detracts from the sense that a Jedi can come from anywhere or be anyone. If we had Jedi at the supermarket, Jedi at the nightclub, Jedi on the construction site, in the classroom, in the hospital, in the Forces, working with a trade, we'd be able to have a far better coverage of skills, and opportunities to do good. Some industries really need it. But if seeking that specialist training is within your means then by all means go for it. I've loved every step of the way so far and now I'm a school counsellor. Pretty happy with that.

But something I think was missing from this was one of the few lines from the Christian bible I have committed to memory. Because damn if it doesn't sum up why we do the training we do.

"To whom much is given, much is expected." - Luke 12:48. Consider that, Jedi. A good Jedi commits time and effort into training his or her skills so that they can do Good within their spheres of influence.

The realist (I won’t speak to what the Jediist believes) recognizes that the Force cannot be the defining characteristic of the Jedi, for the Sith do exactly this as well. Watch the films , read the fiction(, add Disney canon too!), several other groups believe in the Force and use it to act. Thus, the defining difference cannot be the Force. The belief in and use of it earns us a place simply under the title of “Force Realist”- of which Jediism is a sub-group (a fairly large one at that).

Why couldn't the defining difference be the Force? Different religions believe in the same god, yet interpret things differently. I don't see why jediism should be any different...

Besides while totjo never bothered with them much, jediism has different flavours. I have certainly never been one of the 'light' variety most people appear attracted to.


I find it funny you call jediism a subgenre of 'force realism'. 'Force realist' is what I used to call people who lacked conviction to commit to jediism, or even a name for themselves (more flavours than people) until it got picked by Alethea I think? Who made it a thing other than a cheap alternative to whatever it was one realist or another identified as. Additionally jediism was first, realism was created in protest. Some of the jediism-hating fossils who started and crippled realism may occasionnaly resurface to take potshots at jediism, and continue disagreeing with its existence for baffling reasons, as things are, in Jediism the Force is accepted as fact, in realism it isn't. Philosophy is at the center of religion, the suggestion it isn't the case for jediism is ridiculous.

The interpretation is what defines those people under the denomination they are. This is really simple if you consider the following type of logic:

All Roses are Flowers, not all Flowers are Roses.

All Baptists are Christians, not all Christians are Baptist.

All Mahayana Buddhists are Buddhists, not all Buddhists are Mahayaha Buddhists.

Big term, smaller identifiers. Sith cannot be Jedi, yet they hold a belief in the Force. Something else must identify the Jedi from the Sith.

Oh, and just so it's clear, I came up with the term completely separate from you based on Force Academy. You had no hand in my selection of the term. It wasn't until the first time you mentioned it here about twoish years ago that I even knew you ever used the term.

And while Jediism was created first, it was created long after the community came about. Realist may have been in protest, but only by virtue of the fact that Jediism was only created to turn it into a religion where a lot of people treated it as a philosophy instead. It doesn't mean the two didn't exist side by side. A term only comes about in order to distinguish the differences. So the origin is of very little importance. It instead is about the usage.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Oh, and just so it's clear, I came up with the term completely separate from you based on Force Academy. You had no hand in my selection of the term. It wasn't until the first time you mentioned it here about twoish years ago that I even knew you ever used the term.

And while Jediism was created first, it was created long after the community came about. Realist may have been in protest, but only by virtue of the fact that Jediism was only created to turn it into a religion where a lot of people treated it as a philosophy instead. It doesn't mean the two didn't exist side by side. A term only comes about in order to distinguish the differences. So the origin is of very little importance. It instead is about the usage.

But is it really fair, or honest, to say philosophy and religion are separate and distinct from each other?

You point out yourself That Jedi and Sith both profess a belief in the Force. The difference, than, IS philosophical, which further informs a religious practice; Jediism claims to place a focus on the community around them, through service, while (based on limited expressions here, for lack of my own research) Sithism focuses on the individual.

Religions have philosophy, but not all philosophy stems from religion. That's your own logic, but between your two posts, you seem to contradict yourself, and I'm afraid I don't understand your position for that.

It is possible to engage philosophy and practice it free of religious associations, but that doesn't necessarily separate the philosophical from the spiritual, in the context of this conversation.

This is a(nother) attempt by us (generally) to legitimize. Just do whatever you want. Find your tribe. Not all will agree. I personally find the difference between ist and realist to be splitting of an already split hair. As long as I don't come and crap on any one's carpet, I'm welcomed and can study anywhere

Williamkaede wrote: Consider that, Jedi. A good Jedi commits time and effort into training his or her skills so that they can do Good within their spheres of influence.

Yeah but to me (all) that is what Jediism is (as well)... so I struggle with the distinction. For me, I didn't make any real progress (a relative term to be sure) on my spiritual side until after being successful in work starting from the ground up. It's not uncommon for spiritual paths to have a 'work' requisite like karma yoga for example. So if anything it seems more like a part of Jediism then the other way around, to me. Perhaps realism is like the Jedi Service Corps :silly: :pinch:

I think we'd all agree people should practice what they preach, if not just because actions speak louder then words (not only to others, but to ones own progress).

Adder may I be so bold as to add this one statement to your above response. Many act because they wish not to speak at times?

The question becomes is their action in logic or emotion, neither is necessarily wrong but can change the consequences of said action significantly. Perhaps a difference in Realist and Jediist.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

Proteus wrote: I'm wondering what went through your head when reading the thread title.

What does that phrase and term mean to you?

Does romaticizing Jediism affect one's approach to it? Can romanticisation make one more serious than sincere?

What went through my mind is that when I began the path of the Jedi, it was highly romanticized. I was serious about the path, but I was also naive. Given much time and experience I am now sincere about studying the mysteries of the universe, and it is far more realistic and far less glamorous.