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Love vs Attachment
- Leah Starspectre
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Gisteron wrote: Anything and everything can - and indeed does - lead to suffering of one sort or another, all of the time, to somebody somewhere. Of course that doesn't mean that everything should be permitted unrestrictedly or prohibited pending specific circumstance, or if it does I wouldn't be willing to make that call myself. Morality is at any rate more complicated than that. It isn't and nor should we pretend like it is about binary states like that of joy as opposed to suffering or the do against the don't. There is nothing inherently wrong with reducing complex matters to simple patterns, but one can never do that without losing nuance that is often inexpendable and that is the single most devastating flaw of every moral framework, no matter how sophisticated the authors at times think theirs is - the pretence to answer genuinely complex issues with childishly simplistic solutions.
Of course it's simplistic in the way I presented it. Sometimes, it's useful to break down complex matters to simple denominations in order to absorb them more easily - complexity and nuance can be added with time, instruction and deeper understanding. You wouldn't expect a baby's first word to be "Floccinaucinihilipilification", would you?

Also, I didn't suggest that anything should be unrestrained or restricted. I'm wondering what place love and attachment have in the Jedi community, because surely there must be many different ways of looking at it, and that's where I think deeper understanding comes from: considering the shades of grey between the two extremes and from other people's wisdom and experience as well as from codified morals (which is often simply ancient wisdom).
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Attachment is a liar. It tells you something in your mind that is often quite different from what is happening.
The Jedi path is a very personal one. I cannot speak to what would be best for the community.
rugadd
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storge: loving attachement, deep friendship, or nonsexual affection. the emotion that binds friends and parents and children.
agape: generosity and charity. implying the wish to share one's bounty and is epitomized by anonymous donations. in relationships it is characterized by selfless giving.
philia: friendship. it is based on liking and respect rather than sexual desire and involves a desire to do and enjoy things with the other person and to see them when lonely or bored.
eros: passion. sudden passionate desire that can be so gripping that one can be convinced that their life has been changed forever. it can be earthy and sexy with sexual arousal and desire being the strongest components of romantic or passionate love. it begins with a powerful physical attraction or feelings of passion and is associated with strong physiological arousal...
per human sexuality in a world of diversity 5th edition
of the four loves, eros and storge are the most likely to lead to attachment...of the four i only have significant experience in 2...agape and philia...i have no attachment to my own family, likely because of my abusive childhood for my own emotional survival those sort of bonds had to be severed. if you live long enough without forming attachments letting go becomes second nature. it is not something everyone can nor should do...i will do anything in my power to aid and protect those i let into my circle of friendship (agape and philia), and when the time comes to part ways and move on there is no attachment to cause pain or suffering...
in modern times we use the word "love" to cover a wide array of emotional/psychological attachments and connections...it has become a "blanket term" rather than a specific one...perhaps we need to go back to using specific terms...
Through passion I gain strength and knowledge
Through strength and knowledge I gain victory
Through victory I gain peace and harmony
Through peace and harmony my chains are broken
There is no death, there is the force and it shall free me
Quotes:
Out of darkness, he brings light. Out of hatred, love. Out of dishonor, honor-james allen-
He who has conquered doubt and fear has conquered failure-james allen-
The sword is the key to heaven and hell-Mahomet-
The best won victory is that obtained without shedding blood-Count Katsu-
All men's souls are immortal, only the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine -Socrates-
I'm the best at what I do, what I do ain't pretty-wolverine
J.L.Lawson,Master Knight, M.div, Eastern Studies S.I.G. Advisor (Formerly Known as the Buddhist Rite)
Former Masters: GM Kana Seiko Haruki , Br.John
Current Apprentices: Baru
Former Apprentices:Adhara(knight), Zenchi (knight)
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RyuJin wrote: the 4 loves...
storge: loving attachement, deep friendship, or nonsexual affection. the emotion that binds friends and parents and children.
agape: generosity and charity. implying the wish to share one's bounty and is epitomized by anonymous donations. in relationships it is characterized by selfless giving.
philia: friendship. it is based on liking and respect rather than sexual desire and involves a desire to do and enjoy things with the other person and to see them when lonely or bored.
eros: passion. sudden passionate desire that can be so gripping that one can be convinced that their life has been changed forever. it can be earthy and sexy with sexual arousal and desire being the strongest components of romantic or passionate love. it begins with a powerful physical attraction or feelings of passion and is associated with strong physiological arousal...
per human sexuality in a world of diversity 5th edition
of the four loves, eros and storge are the most likely to lead to attachment...of the four i only have significant experience in 2...agape and philia...i have no attachment to my own family, likely because of my abusive childhood for my own emotional survival those sort of bonds had to be severed. if you live long enough without forming attachments letting go becomes second nature. it is not something everyone can nor should do...i will do anything in my power to aid and protect those i let into my circle of friendship (agape and philia), and when the time comes to part ways and move on there is no attachment to cause pain or suffering...
in modern times we use the word "love" to cover a wide array of emotional/psychological attachments and connections...it has become a "blanket term" rather than a specific one...perhaps we need to go back to using specific terms...
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- OB1Shinobi
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Miss_Leah wrote: a lot of the Jedi that I have encountered on this forum do subscribe to the idea of minimizing attachment to free the self from unnecessary physical and emotional burdens. It's a very Buddhist notion of attachment leading to suffering.
But then there's Love as Campbell describes it: your other self, a union or two parts that were once whole. Is that not the ultimate attachment? The ultimate suffering - both of yourself and the other?
What place do you think Love/Amor has in the Jedi community?
last semester one of my professors introduced the triangular theory of love, which i found interesting
i'll put it in a spoiler and you can check it out if youre interested
https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/the-triangular-theory-of-love/
According to Sternburg, any permutation of love contains at its root three components. They are:
Intimacy: Feelings of attachment, closeness, typified by sharing secrets, etc.
Passion: Feelings of sexual and romantic attraction.
Commitment: A willingness in the short-term to create and maintain a relationship and long-term plans to sustain the relationship.
Of course, a “perfect” relationship in Sternberg’s view contains all three components, but the various combinations of these psychological aspects of love create eight separate permutations that cover almost all relationships.
In the sake of completeness, each permutation has an accompanying description.
Nonlove “refers simply to the absence of all three components of love. Nonlove characterizes the large majority of our personal relationships, which are simply casual interactions.”
Liking/friendship is “used here in a nontrivial sense. Rather, it refers to the set of feelings one experiences in relationships that can truly be characterized as friendship. One feels closeness, bondedness, and warmth toward the other, without feelings of intense passion or long-term commitment.”
Infatuated love: “Infatuation results from the experiencing of passionate arousal in the absence of intimacy and decision/commitment…like Tennov’s limerance .” Romantic relationships often start out as infatuated love and become romantic love as intimacy develops over time. Without developing intimacy or commitment, infatuated love may disappear suddenly.
Empty love is characterized by commitment without intimacy or passion. A stronger love may deteriorate into empty love. In an arranged marriage, the spouses’ relationship may begin as empty love and develop into another form, indicating “how empty love need not be the terminal state of a long-term relationship…[but] the beginning rather than the end.”
Romantic love “derives from a combination of the intimate and passionate components of love…romantic lovers are not only drawn physically to each other but are also bonded emotionally”- bonded both intimately and passionately, but without sustaining commitment.
Companionate love is an intimate, non-passionate type of love that is stronger than friendship because of the element of long-term commitment. “This type of love is observed in long-term marriages where passion is no longer present” but where a deep affection and commitment remain. The love ideally shared between family members is a form of companionate love, as is the love between close friends who have a platonic but strong friendship.
Fatuous love can be exemplified by a whirlwind courtship and marriage – “fatuous in the sense that a commitment is made on the basis of passion without the stabilizing influence of intimate involvement.”
Consummate love is the complete form of love, representing an ideal relationship toward which people strive. Of the seven varieties of love, consummate love is theorized to be that love associated with the “perfect couple.” According to Sternberg, these couples will continue to have great sex fifteen years or more into the relationship, they cannot imagine themselves happier over the long-term with anyone else, they overcome their few difficulties gracefully, and each delight in the relationship with one other. However, Sternberg cautions that maintaining a consummate love may be even harder than achieving it. He stresses the importance of translating the components of love into action. “Without expression,” he warns, “even the greatest of loves can die.” Thus, consummate love may not be permanent. If passion is lost over time, it may change into companionate love.
The diligent thing to do, as you are all budding psychologists I’m sure, is to create a list of all the people you know and categorize them on the basis of the type of love you have with them.
Do these conceptions of love fit your relationship? Do you agree with Sternberg? Maybe you will realize your love is more full (or sadly less full) than you expected.
Predicting Love
While we are on the subject, we might as well outline a bit more about the psychological study of love.
Contrary to many of our fantasies about how love begins (stranger’s eyes meet across a crowded room and it’s love at first sight), the main predictors of love are much more mundane than many of us think.
The largest predictors of who will be in a relationship are familiarity, similarity, and proximity. Psychologists have found that how familiar you are with a person predicts whether or not you will enter into a relationship with that person. That is to say, it is very unlikely that you will end up dating a complete stranger.
Similarity is also a major factor in predicting who will end up together. Interestingly, much of the psychological research on this factor has found that the old adage “opposites attract” is largely untrue. When you share similar values, interests, philosophies, etc., you are more likely to enter into a relationship with that person.
Lastly, and most surprisingly, proximity predicts who will end up together. For example, studies have been done on college campuses where you can predict who will end up in a relationship together by actually measuring the distance between dorm rooms. The closer you are to someone in distance (you are in class together, you go to the same laundry mat, you live on the same block, etc.), the more likely you are to enter into a relationship with them.
Perhaps this is why are fantasies are so appealing. Psychologically, little agrees with the hot and heavy “stranger across the room” story. But hey, I’d rather live in the reality of love than lament over an unlikely fantasy.
Getting Personal
I suppose that as my last relationship was dwindling, we moved out of consummate love and into companionate love. The passion faded. We seemed to stay together out of familiarity and convenience. It soon became empty love.
As I enter into a new relationship, I find myself in romantic love. Sharing and feeling connected and passionate yet not committing to any real relationship. It’s a scary roller coaster to ride, especially if you are more of a long-term relationship kind of guy like myself.
I am very familiar with the other in my new relationship, we share many of the same values, yet we are very far apart. Does this mean that psychologically my new relationship is predicted to fail? The predictors aren’t hard and fast rules, but I’d be a fool to hope against all the statistics to the contrary. Where does that leave me? Without the commitment component to my current relationship, perhaps proximity becomes less important. One can only speculate.
Love is one of those phenomena that is trotted out when science claims to explain most everything. Some say that science cannot explain love. While we don’t have a full theory (chemical, cognitive, physiological) of it yet, we can at least categorize it psychologically. Who knows, putting boundaries on the permutations of love may help you explore your own relationship, and clear a notoriously cloudy landscape which underlies so much of our lives.
this site lists several popular love theories
https://www.verywell.com/theories-of-love-2795341
from my experience i can say that without having a life of ones own, it is not possible to be a healthy partner
its easy for people to lose themselves in the relationship
and if the relationship itself is the most important thing in your life, youve set yourself up to fail, as a person and as a partner
about community: i dont want to be a part of a community that excludes LOVE from its premise
i wouldnt say that totjo does excludes love, even if some member or other might give that impression, because no community is really defined by only one or two people
love builds a community in a way that benefits everyone, and i say this aware of my own shortcomings
generally i think that you have to be a healthy person in order to love in a healthy way
but i also think that striving to love in a healthy way can help to make you a healthier person
attachment becomes unhealthy when it makes demands, which is different from having standards
i have the right to say "these are the standard by which i expect to be treated"
it is not anyone elses responsibility to live up to my standards
its my responsibility to pay attention to them, and see how they treat people, and see how they treat me, and decide if that is the kind of treatment that i want
if its not, then it is my responsibility to move along
having my own life helps me to be able to do that, and i recommend the same for everyone
you have to HAVE a life you can SHARE your life, and if youre holding on to someone who is damaging you, or someone who you are damaging, then its not healthy and its time to let go
but thats easier said than done
People are complicated.
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- OB1Shinobi
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i mean it was one of the best posts in the thread, was really great to read except for that one, imo very important detail
in another thread there are people discussing how wise and insightful chomsky is
well, chomsky is a linguist and his breakout work iirc and much of what he has said since, basically have to do with the way that language is used to direct thought
if we want to say that being in love is like having a cold, or cough, or in some way being ILL, then where does that line of thought direct us?
to perhaps saying that marriage is like chronic bronchitis?
then is having a family something like emphysema?
and a career to support that family something akin to long term hospitalization?
these are LITERALLY the foundations of society, and love is possibly the most important component of human relationships - its said that from love, every other worthy thing springs
the western world has declared love as probably the ultimate human virtue, and i dont say that this is correct but i cant really say its wrong either
and its an insidious idea to parcel out, because it is easy to view it as a casual and offhand remark, but its a remark that will stick to the mind, and come back at the worst possible time
when life is good and everything is roses then of course "love as an illness" seems quaint and clever and harmless, but when youre really heartbroken and suffering, "love as an illness" makes perfect sense, and becomes almost self evident
and if we accept that the ultimate virtue of our entire civilization is in fact a form of illness, where does THAT direct us?
not to any place that is good for any one of us
like i said, the rest of the post was fantastic, and i have been sitting on this for a while because i dont want to seem hostile, and i dont think the post was meant to be the way that i have described here
and im sure some are going to feel i am being too serious
but if nothing else it is a great opportunity to highlight how we might be conscious of the way we use language, and i think that is good for everyone
People are complicated.
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- Albali Cometlast
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Based on this the jedi shouldnt have attachment but i considered that this rule have its exceptions and give unconditional love to one person you should be really close and have a type of relationship with some "attachment" (live together, travel together, experience new things together) but the mistake is to consider that somehow because of love you own that person. That is how i understand the forbidden of attachment for a Jedi, a mistake a Jedi shouldnt make.
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- Wescli Wardest
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“Only choices made in love are compassionate. There are no exceptions. Do you have the courage to act with an empowered heart without attachment to the outcome? If not, you have no ability to give or experience compassion. That is the shocking truth.” ~Gary Zukav
Love is an emotion and attachment is an expectation that elicits an emotional response.
“He who is overly attached to his family members experiences fear and sorrow, for the root of all grief is attachment. Thus one should discard attachment to be happy.” ~Chanakya
Would have to disagree that attachment is the root of all suffering. I believe that fear is the greatest negative motivator which can lead to or cause our suffering. And attachment leads to fear. There are negative motivators that are a part of life and we would lose perspective of the fragile and special meaning of positive motivators without them.
“Pray to God that your attachment to such transitory things as wealth, name, and creature comforts may become less and less every day.” ~Ramakrishna
“Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be attained only by someone who is detached.” ~Simone Weil
The material world plays to our need for acceptance and our attachment to it. This is a condition which in part has led to our enslavement to the world of today. And so many have mistaken love for attachment and can no longer see the difference.
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- Carlos.Martinez3
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Has any one else made changes to their own life's as they have learned? Out of curiosity, how?
I got stories for days lol I like to hear others
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