Lucasfilm Sues ‘Lightsaber Academy’ and ‘Jedi Club’ Over Trademark Infringement

Tarran wrote: I mean, what you're saying seems to tell me that it is copyright infringement even for using "Jedi" in the name of a simple Facebook fan page

Trademark, but potentially. It depends on how that term is used. Trademarks are given for a specific purpose. For example, using the term "droid" in regards to electronic devices is a breach of trademark, since LucasFilm Ltd. has really only licensed Motorola to use that in any non-sci-fi electronic setting. Moto didn't buy the trademark, but they're leasing it with permission.

On the other hand, using the word "droid" as a brand name for a loaf of bread would probably not cause any trouble, because I doubt that LucasFilm Ltd. registered a trademark for droid under "general baked goods."

There are tons of opinions at this Temple about religious use and educational use, but those apply to copyright not trademark. A trademark is like a brand name or a logo; if you use it, you're telling people you're associated with a thing. We are not associated with that thing (though we are inspired by it), so that could get a little tricky down the road if they swing at us.
[hr]

P.S. ~ Lucasfilm Ltd. is still owned by George Lucas, yes? So it is HE who is doing the suing mentioned in this thread's title, not Disney, right?

Let us remember a few key things:

1. Disney owns Star Wars.
2. Disney is the reason intellectual property law is so complex and ridiculous today.

Also, I'm going to say this one more time because it's really, really, really f***all important:
This case is about Trademarks, not Copyrights.

Why do I keep bringing that up, you ask?
Because copyright is the one with Fair Use. There is no fair use with Trademark. Period. Ever. Because it's intended to keep brands identities separated and cut down on competition, there cannot be any kind of fair use in a trademark case. The only times you can get away with using a trademark if you don't own it is if you are discussing it, or if it is a general word that has or had other meanings in general speech.

Tarran wrote: But uhm... I'm trying to understand the *how*... (on "Jediism" as well as on "Jedi", though it may make no difference)... is it because... damnit, I thought I had a thought for a second (LOL)... no, seriously - I mean, what you're saying seems to tell me that it is copyright infringement even for using "Jedi" in the name of a simple Facebook fan page! Isn't that a correct assessment? I mean, what are we to do? Are we not then, even now, actually-factually infringing upon copyright law even as I type/we read this??

We MUST be law-abiding... so what are we to do??

I find this very unnerving, very unsettling, and very-very-very uncool

ok, Steamboat has pointed out the differences with copywrite and trademark...

But, I want to address this point of Tarran's...

Life "is"...

You say "we must be law-abiding"...

I am... I abide the 'spirit' of the law', I have to adhere to 'natures laws' (poetic license here you pedantic folks!!) and basically try to do what I feel is right... Hopefully, the law and I agree more than we disagree (says the elected official, lol)

I have no trouble running a red light to get to the emergency room for an emergency, yet, I stop like a law-abiding citizen when I am not in an emergency.. And, even when I break the law, I try to be as careful as possible, to only go as far as I need to, and I am prepared to face the consequences...

So, I am not making a statement as to whether we are 'legal' or not, I am simply saying, that I hope I am, Im comfortable if I am breaking the law, and will do as I need to should my actions be challenged...

That make sense?

We have had people quit being Jedi because of a stance, or action we have had/taken, and to point to the fiction (for some, this is old hat for me), QuiGon nudged those dice to win Anakin, ObiWon lied to the autorites about the droids they were looking for, as well as he Luke and Han damaged government property when they rescued Leia... Not to mention all the other times they did that... lol...

Ive condoned actions that might seem un-jedi to some, but, I did not do it for myself, but rather for the greater good...

This is always on my mind...

Disney purchased 100% of George Lucas's interest in LucasFilms. It is a separate corporation but it's 100% owned by Disney.

We are not using 'Jedi' or 'Jedi Order' under a theory of fair use. We're using it for a purposes not covered under LucasFilms trademarks. I cannot prove it. Nobody can prove that we're violating it either. The only way to do that is have it go to court and have a judgment. Then there's an appeal and that ruling would be the final say unless the Supreme Court took up the matter. Then they would have the final say. Until that day comes anything anyone says is an opinion and a guess. I do not believe we are in violation of any trademarks because what we are and what we do are not covered under any trademark. There are also First Amendment constitutional issues but that can never be tested unless it's brought to court.

Does anyone think LucasFilms attorneys and TPTB (The Powers That Be) don't know about us? It costs a few dollars to send a certified letter to me. My name and address are public record for anyone who want's to file a lawsuit against The Order or send an official letter.

Them not doing so is not permission at all. They could send a letter tomorrow or years from now. But as of the time I write this they have not.

We should also consider why these particular entities were targeted for infringing on trademarks and how it compares to our use. It could be argued that Disney would be likely to create a "Lightsaber Academy" as part of the new Star Wars attractions at Disneyland or create a "Jedi" themed cantina/night club at any one of their resorts. This would put them at odds with the existing groups who would be competing with them in a similar trade, so they have chosen to sue them. The question for the court becomes whether or not these uses would be protected under the current trademarks owned by Disney or not. If so, Disney will win.

The same situation could apply to our name someday. If Disney decides to include a "Jedi Temple" in the Star Wars attraction currently being built at Disneyland, they might become much more interested in our use of the trademark. If they never have a good use for "Jedi" Order or Temple, they may not ever care that we borrowed a trademarked term because our website won't be competing with them or hurt their ability to still effectively exploit and monetize the "Jedi" trademark in other ways.

Ultimately, the owner of the trademark gets to decide how strongly they wish to protect it and from whom.

An amusement park Jedi Temple and a real Jedi Temple are extremely different things. If we were talking about James Bond as compared to a real MI6 agent or House MD compared to a real doctor would anyone be confused?

Jestor wrote:

Tarran wrote: We MUST be law-abiding... so what are we to do??

I find this very unnerving, very unsettling, and very-very-very uncool

ok, Steamboat has pointed out the differences with copywrite and trademark...

Yes, I flubbed. It comes from typing, while exhausted both physically and mentally, late at night after work, and a bit stressed by this news - my bad lol

You say "we must be law-abiding"...

Yes, I understand and fully agree with your points, of course I'd wondered if I should have elaborated... I suppose I mean that we must refrain from infringing upon the rights of others - not so much in some hyper-technical sense which would harm utterly no-one in any way, shape, form, or fashion, but... I would include setting a bad example to others as harm.

Now, in precisely what we do and how, including what we are NOT doing with our derivative of a trademarked term ("Jediism"), I truthfully don't think we are setting any. That is, we are NOT; making a profit; harming/distorting an image; inserting apocryphal material; altering or influencing any course of business; etc. - so far, therefore I feel I'm morally violating no-one.

And now,...

steamboat28 wrote:

Tarran wrote: I mean, what you're saying seems to tell me that it is copyright infringement even for using "Jedi" in the name of a simple Facebook fan page

Trademark, but potentially. It depends on how that term is used. Trademarks are given for a specific purpose. For example, using the term "droid" in regards to electronic devices is a breach of trademark, since LucasFilm Ltd. has really only licensed Motorola to use that in any non-sci-fi electronic setting. Moto didn't buy the trademark, but they're leasing it with permission.

On the other hand, using the word "droid" as a brand name for a loaf of bread would probably not cause any trouble, because I doubt that LucasFilm Ltd. registered a trademark for droid under "general baked goods."

I see.

I can see how nauseating headaches can come from the type of lawyer language this can easily fling into... this is precisely why I dropped demonology decades ago lol

Okay, you raise two points which seem interesting...

There are tons of opinions at this Temple about religious use and educational use, but those apply to copyright not trademark. A trademark is like a brand name or a logo; if you use it, you're telling people you're associated with a thing. We are not associated with that thing (though we are inspired by it), so that could get a little tricky down the road if they swing at us.

And...

The only times you can get away with using a trademark if you don't own it is if you are discussing it, or if it is a general word that has or had other meanings in general speech.

Now it seems that we sort of cover not being associated per se (though inspired), by stating on the front page that we are not the Jedi from the movies, as they are fictional characters in a literary universe. And yet, while we are inspired by the film's, and the Jedi therein, a gi-hugic part of what we do here is discussing them. And hey, is it not within our rights as appreciators of such inspirational art? Even to the point of our living out our homage to the artist for the inspiration given? Perhaps we need to nail down just what *are* the rights of the inspired, the patron, the influenced learner, and all else that one might apply to anyone in our humble and sincere position.

I've discussed trademark issues with several attorneys and in their (off the record unpaid) opinions we are not infringing. Without a court judgment it's a guess and an opinion. Nothing more - nothing less.

Since we are a bona fide religious order there are First Amendment issues which are superior to any law or any regulation. Again the only way to know for sure is to have it decided in a court of law.

Br. John wrote: An amusement park Jedi Temple and a real Jedi Temple are extremely different things. If we were talking about James Bond as compared to a real MI6 agent or House MD compared to a real doctor would anyone be confused?

Very true, Br. John. You raise a fair point. We are not trying to benefit commercially or creating confusion among consumers about whether this Temple is associated with Disney or Star Wars in any way, so I would hope that Disney would see it this way as well.

She'll be right mate!!!! But if push comes to shove then perhaps 'Jediism' gets around it... the study/path/pursuit of something rather then pretending to be something would seem to step around it in another way perhaps.

I've read through several topics on the Temple with the same concerns as this one, and I will confess they worried me.

So I sat back and meditated on the situation, and this is what I came up with:

As Jedi, we live in the moment. There is no point fretting about if we have broken trademark or copyright laws in the past; nor is there any point in worrying about potential letters from Disney. We must be patient and diligent.

IF a letter is sent, then it is time to act, but we must act calmly, logically and again, with patience. At the end of the day, if Disney for whatever reason want us to change our name or stop using the term "Jedi", then that isn't the end of the world for us. Yes, it could have repercussions in the short term, but in the long term I am certain we will prevail.

I can 100% say however, that I am a Jedi; and no name changing or infringement can stop that or change my beliefs. I am a Jedi and I have the utmost faith in this Temple. May the Force be with it, and within all of us

one thing that gets me, is that they trademarked "lightsaber", a while back several sabersmiths received c&d letters because they either used "lightsaber" in their business name or in reference to their product...most have dropped any mention of the term "lightsaber" and simply use saber instead...now up until disney took over everything lucasfilms/lucasarts was more than happy to leave things be. however disney is a much different, greed inspired beast and seeks to "protect the brand"...it began by shutting down a lightsaber dueling show that was drawing crowds of 12000+ spectators...

it just seems to me that the house of mouse isn't so much interested in "protecting the brand" as it is in protecting their wallets...

on a sort of related note, i've been using uber to get to work, and one of the drivers i met only drives 1 or 2 days a week just to get out of his studio...so i asked him what he did and he said he was a digital artist for disney. then i noticed a starwars wristband, so i asked if he was a fan, turns out he works for disney's lucasarts division...he was one of the digital artists that worked on phasma's armor...he showed me tons of pics from inside skywalker sound and of the ranch.....

steamboat28 wrote: Also, I'm going to say this one more time because it's really, really, really f***all important:
This case is about Trademarks, not Copyrights.

Why do I keep bringing that up, you ask?
Because copyright is the one with Fair Use. There is no fair use with Trademark. Period. Ever. Because it's intended to keep brands identities separated and cut down on competition, there cannot be any kind of fair use in a trademark case. The only times you can get away with using a trademark if you don't own it is if you are discussing it, or if it is a general word that has or had other meanings in general speech.

This -- well, mostly. There actually is something called trademark fair use, as John says stemming from the First Amendment, though it's not the same as the fair use doctrine that everyone knows and that applies to copyrighted material, and likely would not apply in this case because "Jedi" is not a term that has another common use. Questions about our use of the term "the Force," however, may well fall within this type of First Amendment protection.

Your broader argument, though, actually brings up the point I came here to weigh in on. But first . . .

Br. John wrote: We are not using 'Jedi' or 'Jedi Order' under a theory of fair use. We're using it for a purposes not covered under LucasFilms trademarks. I cannot prove it. Nobody can prove that we're violating it either. The only way to do that is have it go to court and have a judgment. Then there's an appeal and that ruling would be the final say unless the Supreme Court took up the matter. Then they would have the final say. Until that day comes anything anyone says is an opinion and a guess. I do not believe we are in violation of any trademarks because what we are and what we do are not covered under any trademark. There are also First Amendment constitutional issues but that can never be tested unless it's brought to court.

Does anyone think LucasFilms attorneys and TPTB (The Powers That Be) don't know about us? It costs a few dollars to send a certified letter to me. My name and address are public record for anyone who want's to file a lawsuit against The Order or send an official letter.

Them not doing so is not permission at all. They could send a letter tomorrow or years from now. But as of the time I write this they have not.

I'm no IP expert, but this is pretty solid. What I would add, though, is that arguably the term "Jedi" has become somewhat genericized by use outside of its original meaning. I'm sure most of us have done a broad Google search for "Jedi" and had all kinds of things come up that have little or nothing to do with Star Wars or its characters: a software language here; a crew of IT pros there; a specific mountain bike; a band or twelve; the Jellyfish Database Initiative; the Jobs and Economic Development Impact models at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory; etc. Forty years of this with only occasional action on Lucasfilm's part is a good thing from our perspective -- not that we're not potentially infringing, but that there ain't that much left to infringe.

What I mean by genericization is that the protections afforded to trademarks erode when the trademark becomes a common word for the thing the trademark describes. Escalator, aspirin, heroin all used to be trademarks but were found to be genericized when they became the customary nouns for the product. In the late 80s and early 90s, corporations used to be much more stringent about preventing this than they seem to be now. I recall a few corps used to take out ads in Writer's Digest warning people not to use their trademarks generically: you have to call it a "photocopy," not a Xerox. Call it a "tissue," not a Kleenex. Johnson & Johnson added a word to their recognizable jingle: "I am stuck on Band-Aid brand . . . " rather than "Band-Aids," because they were concerned that the song could lead a court somewhere, someday, to find that they had encouraged the genericization of their own trademark.

Ultimately, though, I think John has it right. I doubt we are infringing, and I'm not certain there's much left to infringe, and only a court of competent jurisdiction could make that call. So if and when we get the cease-and-desist letter is the time to be concerned about it.

Disclaimer: The above is for discussion and educational purposes only and is not meant to constitute legal advice.

I'm very sorry if it crosses some, but without any further apology from that, whatsoever, my heart and spirit does not fecking care one iota what any "societal organization" says... and being fully aware that to be a *real* Jedi is to understand that it is NOT all about the movies, but rather, that the movies are really, in a "universal-fable" sense, made to be all about us the world over, I AM STILL A JEDI no matter what anyone says, and HAVE BEEN, since *at least* the time I was nine years old, back in 1977, if not before then - and so shall I ever be. Courts may force us to alter our Temple's name, but it matters not, nor will it ever. Even if our reality's version of "the Empire" tries to squash me away, I SHALL REBEL - and the Force shall EVER be with me, and a powerful ally it is - and may the Force be with us all, forever - so mote it be!!

Tarran wrote: I'm very sorry if it crosses some, but without any further apology from that, whatsoever, my heart and spirit does not fecking care one iota what any "societal organization" says... and being fully aware that to be a *real* Jedi is to understand that it is NOT all about the movies, but rather, that the movies are really, in a "universal-fable" sense, made to be all about us the world over, I AM STILL A JEDI no matter what anyone says, and HAVE BEEN, since *at least* the time I was nine years old, back in 1977, if not before then - and so shall I ever be. Courts may force us to alter our Temple's name, but it matters not, nor will it ever. Even if our reality's version of "the Empire" tries to squash me away, I SHALL REBEL - and the Force shall EVER be with me, and a powerful ally it is - and may the Force be with us all, forever - so mote it be!!

I agree wholeheartedly! Copyrighting 'Jedi' won't change our personal opinions, preferences and choices. I concur! I am a Jedi, and nothing Disney says or puts in a letter can stop me! Well said Tarren!!!

Tarran wrote: I'm very sorry if it crosses some, but without any further apology from that, whatsoever, my heart and spirit does not fecking care one iota what any "societal organization" says... and being fully aware that to be a *real* Jedi is to understand that it is NOT all about the movies, but rather, that the movies are really, in a "universal-fable" sense, made to be all about us the world over, I AM STILL A JEDI no matter what anyone says, and HAVE BEEN, since *at least* the time I was nine years old, back in 1977, if not before then - and so shall I ever be. Courts may force us to alter our Temple's name, but it matters not, nor will it ever. Even if our reality's version of "the Empire" tries to squash me away, I SHALL REBEL - and the Force shall EVER be with me, and a powerful ally it is - and may the Force be with us all, forever - so mote it be!!

Nobody here is questioning anybody's resolve as a Jedi. Even Disney would not be questioning your resolve to be Jedi. They would be protecting a trademark, not attacking what that mark has come to mean to you or anybody else. It is easy to get on a high horse about standing up to the evil corporate empire of Disney, but the reality is that nothing they would be doing by sending us a C&D letter or filing a lawsuit is evil. It is within their right as holders of the trademark to do so. The court would have to decide if it is a legitimate case or not. If they decide it is, we would have to stop using the term or face consequences. That wouldn't invalidate our faith or rewind the progress we have made along our paths.

To put it into perspective, we would likely become concerned if someone took our Temple logo and started using it to represent a group of white supremacists. We would take whatever action we could to stop them from using it that way. If we were to do something here that Disney believed would be damaging to the Jedi trademark, I would expect them to react just as we would to the white supremacists, and they would be right to do it.

Senan wrote:

Tarran wrote: I'm very sorry if it crosses some, but without any further apology from that, whatsoever, my heart and spirit does not fecking care one iota what any "societal organization" says... and being fully aware that to be a *real* Jedi is to understand that it is NOT all about the movies, but rather, that the movies are really, in a "universal-fable" sense, made to be all about us the world over, I AM STILL A JEDI no matter what anyone says, and HAVE BEEN, since *at least* the time I was nine years old, back in 1977, if not before then - and so shall I ever be. Courts may force us to alter our Temple's name, but it matters not, nor will it ever. Even if our reality's version of "the Empire" tries to squash me away, I SHALL REBEL - and the Force shall EVER be with me, and a powerful ally it is - and may the Force be with us all, forever - so mote it be!!

Nobody here is questioning anybody's resolve as a Jedi. Even Disney would not be questioning your resolve to be Jedi. They would be protecting a trademark, not attacking what that mark has come to mean to you or anybody else. It is easy to get on a high horse...

Actually, not a high horse, but I had gotten on a couple/few chu-hais after work LOL - think of them as a tall, fizzy, fruity, Japanese version of a screwdriver, with 9% al-ca-ma-hoooooool... *ehe* ^-^;

Oh, I still maintain the very same sentiment, of course... but at this moment, in a more calm, sober manner lol

Do we have any lawyers among the members? Someone who could really analyze the situation? I'm not suggesting to lawyer up (at all), but it might be useful to simply have a legal assessment that goes beyond guesswork and lay analysis.

If there are legal issues, it's probably better to go about them in a proactive manner (internally, again, not suggesting to give up our 'fly under the radar' approach)

This is way off topic, but I wanted to entertain it with Jestor...

but, I did not do it for myself, but rather for the greater good...

This always sounds good doesn't it?

I grew up on Pratchett, and one of my first fictional role models was "Samuel Vimes"

One of his lines that I remind myself almost daily when faced with decisions is

“And if you did it for a good reason, you’d do it for a bad one. You couldn’t say “we’re the good guys” and do bad-guy things.”

Similarly

“Once you had a good excuse, you opened the door to bad excuses.”

Anyway, return to your scheduled programming

She'll be right mate!!!!.

Tsst.

Can we get "No wuckers" put into the doctrine? :laugh:

JamesSand wrote: Can we get "No wuckers" put into the doctrine? :laugh:

Fhat the wuck's a "wucker"?? lol