An Answer for Unification- please read I know it's redundant, but follow me :D

*dizzy eyes* That topic has come up so many times, and so many times the community has tried different ways of doing it. The problem with the way we've tried to get unification in the past is that everyone wanted it (everyone under one banner of some sort) but no one could agree on how it should be done. Some felt that because of the way things were going, they would no longer be considered Jedi- so they decided to not go along with the plan.

Similar to the Jedi Compass document, Opie was the first one to attempt creating a piece (the Jedi Circle) that gave a good idea of what the Jedi taught and were about. He took the document from order to order and asked if people agreed with it. There were three problems with the document: One, it changed a few times (actually it's newest version got rid of one of the issues (Five Misconceptions) people had with the document and replaced it with the Five Goals, I'm rather fond of the newer version ), and two many just didn't want to read it because they had a bad taste in their mouth of Opie, three was that the document was so watered down, it wasn't particularly "Jedi"- instead it was "EVERYTHING". As though Opie wanted to design a document that told what everything in common with every religion on the planet, rather than what made people Jedi as opposed to just plain Christian or Buddhist.

Before Jedi Compass, the various ways we tried to unite each other was to get standards across the board so that when a Knight from ToTJO walked into RJK or a Knight from IJRS walked into ToTJF was through standardizing some of the things we taught. The most recent method was my initiative circa 2012, where we attempted to see if we couldn't make it more like an academy type setting. This is the base for what a Jedi Knight should know, and when you go to another order you don't have to retake those classes. You'd just need to go through the courses that are not included at the order you were knighted at, take the trials and then go from there to knighthood. We just couldn't agree on what those standards were. Perhaps the most heated came about with physical requirements. Half the community wanted people to be capable of martial arts, the other half didn't see it as all that important (actually, that's why it's Defense Art and Physical Art rather than combining the two and saying "Martial Art", Martial Art fulfills both, but what some of us agreed that being a Lawyer was a method for a Jedi to defend others just as well as someone defending them on the street- use your talents, that's how we live the Hero's Journey to our fullest- not by dictating that one must do it by physically being able to defend people...at the end of the day, how often do many of us actually find ourselves in a hand-to-hand fight for our safety? Or someone elses? Really? Even as a deployed soldier, I NEVER had to use my judo- or my weapon beyond show of presence...kinda says something about the average person, no?).

So then there was a group that tried to organize projects (Unified Jedi or something like that) across various orders. RJK, FA and Tenebrae Surgunt were a part of that. We were wanting to test it before we went forward with it. That was a good few months but the problem we had was whether or not to include other Force Realists in the group (at the time, the term had not been created, I think I did Force Realists Magazine about a year after this initiative). And then before we could make any real headway with it, the founder of the group came in after he "died" and announced that he was surprised it was still going, he had in fact actually started the group to troll us. So he shut down the site, and it just fell to the wayside in the midst of another civil war at RJK (RJK's got a long history- I'm not going into it, lol). I -believe- that was the closest any of us had actually gotten to getting something working. All the other initiatives fell to the wayside because people either forgot about it, or didn't put in the effort they said they were willing to put in.

So then there was an online magazine that ended up with two issues. When I couldn't figure out how to get that one up and running again, I started my own, but it ended up being a three man show: Talon (not the same one at Jedi Church for those of you that know that one, this one dates to IJRS and RJK and is now at JAO with Opie), myself and JediKaren from ToTJF. On occasion I was able to pull in people to write articles from various areas- even got my mom to write a piece for it . But it became too hard to keep up with so few people willing to submit anything for it despite my efforts to get people on board with it at every order I advertised. Had a few other initiatives like that in recent history, but they didn't work out (actually I think Connor tried this too after me). Then there is Knights of Awakening, which is still barely surviving mostly because of Charles and Derek pulling their shows, and on occasion I'm able to post something. From this idea, came Hannigan's Jedi Realist Radio, which he is also trying to use to help the community build better communications with the world by opening a door for us to all communicate on.

The Jedi Gatherings have been going on for years, that is also an initiative to help bring unity in the community through better fellowship and communication.

Then...Then there was Church of Jediism under Daniel Jones JUST after the insanity with the hood. Single-handedly, CoJ managed to get all us angry enough that it started to finally be seen that maybe we all did have something in common. Back then I organized a group to talk with Jones in chat about what happened and see if we couldn't get to better understand what was up with that group. Had a couple from ToTJO there too. At that point, some of the initiatives started leaning more towards just open communication between the orders and building better relationships while letting orders hold their own identities.

I made the attempt to get a book together a few years ago too- I remember Br. John making a post in that thread saying "Hey, let's support this initiative!"- and it ultimately fell to the wayside, not because of the community, but because of me. Back then, the book wasn't organized. It was just a "hey give me some of your best works and let's smash it altogether!". That was part of the project I had going to help build a legitimacy in the Chaplain Corps so that someone could go to a chaplain and ask for them to sponsor a Jedi Chapter at the base if they were able to find enough people to pull one off (have the same rights as Pagans do), it also would help prevent abuse of the system by someone just claiming to be Jedi.

So now, here we are- at my second attempt to see this book idea go forward. But this time I'm not going to make the same mistake. I'm going to see this one all the way through until I've exhausted my resources.

Thank you Alethea, I appreciate you taking the time to answer so comprehensively.

I may be taking this conversation round in circles, but bear with me please , if unification has proved to be elusive because people will not agree on a single defined concept of who the "jedi" are, why push the idea of a document or book that essentially tries to create unification in print?

And if people are resistant to unification, I can understand why the resistance to your project. People have an odd relationship with books, and for many there's a sense that if its important enough to be published then it must be the right way to do it. Those who don't agree with the concept of your project may be nervous that their own interpretations or voices might be lost if left out of the compass.

Have you considered simply publishing it as your own work? Not as a community wide en devour?



And yes, I remember when it was introduced here. I was intrigued by it then, and still am, I believe I even offered my thoughts on it privately, but regardless, I would probably still not want to take in on as a "unified" document.

Edit, and not because I disagree with its contents, because I don't.

Edan wrote: Is this book for us or for others?

My day would say yes.

I think getting it out there is a good thing and should be supported. What happens next, happens. I'm confident learning will take place. After that who knows. It's an adventure. Adventure is ............well.......um.......putting ourselves in exciting new situations. Go for it, :woohoo:

Brenna wrote: Thank you Alethea, I appreciate you taking the time to answer so comprehensively.

I may be taking this conversation round in circles, but bear with me please , if unification has proved to be elusive because people will not agree on a single defined concept of who the "jedi" are, why push the idea of a document or book that essentially tries to create unification in print?

And if people are resistant to unification, I can understand why the resistance to your project. People have an odd relationship with books, and for many there's a sense that if its important enough to be published then it must be the right way to do it. Those who don't agree with the concept of your project may be nervous that their own interpretations or voices might be lost if left out of the compass.

Have you considered simply publishing it as your own work? Not as a community wide en devour?



And yes, I remember when it was introduced here. I was intrigued by it then, and still am, I believe I even offered my thoughts on it privately, but regardless, I would probably still not want to take in on as a "unified" document.

Edit, and not because I disagree with its contents, because I don't.

Unified in the sense of- we are unified in communication. That we have the ability to see accept one another, because we are willing to stop with the "well that order is this" or "this order is this way" and (forgive the terminology, but it really is how the naysayers are putting it) FUCK THE REST OF YOU.

It's so few that say it, and yet they are the ones that the people whom believe that simple respect among the orders is not possible- for the select few that say exactly that last phrase in a much nicer way. I just want it to be know from one order to the next, that's not actually how the majority of us feel- and this book would help that. That's why I say "unification", unification through communication and recognized mutual respect.

Alethea Thompson wrote:
Unified in the sense of- we are unified in communication. That we have the ability to see accept one another, because we are willing to stop with the "well that order is this" or "this order is this way" and (forgive the terminology, but it really is how the naysayers are putting it) FUCK THE REST OF YOU.

It's so few that say it, and yet they are the ones that the people whom believe that simple respect among the orders is not possible- for the select few that say exactly that last phrase in a much nicer way. I just want it to be know from one order to the next, that's not actually how the majority of us feel- and this book would help that. That's why I say "unification", unification through communication and recognized mutual respect.

I believe respect is absolutely possible between orders (and sadly I feel that it has nothing to do with doctrine or beliefs). I wonder though (and again, I am not criticizing at all, just exploring) how a book will foster more respect between the groups?

how a book will foster more respect between the groups?

It's a beginning and worth a try.

Got a better idea? Go for it!

By showing we aren't so different after all.

Something that many of us whom travel around already know- but those that don't may not be well aware of.

Alethea Thompson wrote: By showing we aren't so different after all.

Something that many of us whom travel around already know- but those that don't may not be well aware of.

So the goal is not to get people to agree to definitions, but to highlight the ones we already have in common? And perhaps show commonalities between things that we all have but might use different terminology for?

Yes

Alethea Thompson wrote: Yes

May I ask why you dont just do that then?

Instead of getting peoples buy in and validation of concepts, write about the parallels and similarities you can see as you move through the groups?

You have a rather unique perspective because of the involvement you have on so many levels. I almost feel like trying to get people to agree with what you can see waters down the authenticity of your experiences. And as per my comment in another thread, getting consensus is like stuffing an octopus into a handbag.

At the end of the day, no matter how many people you get on board, someones going to disagree and if agreement is what you're looking for, we may be waiting a very long time to read your book. If I was doing something like this, I would write about my experience and what I could see throughout the community, hope that people read it and go "oh yeah, I can see that now"

In much the same way Campbell probably did when he started writing about the connecting pieces he saw in religions and philosophies around the world.