Live Sermon Jan 20th 23:00 UTC

[Creed is Recited as Follows:
I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
Where there is hatred I shall bring love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.
I am a Jedi.
I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love;
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.]

(15:16:36) Joe: (whispers) Beautiful sermon, loved it.
(15:17:33) Rosalyn_J: For many of you, this may be your first sermon, so this question is directed to the veterans among us
(15:17:53) Rosalyn_J: where any of you a bit discombobulated?
(15:18:47) Joe: Discowhatnow?
(15:18:52) Rosalyn_J: (whispers to Joe) haven't actually started the sermon Joe
(15:19:02) Rosalyn_J: confused
(15:19:02) Kamizu: For a moment
(15:19:12) Rosalyn_J: for a moment
(15:19:14) Joe: (whispers) I know. A bad attempt at humour. i apologize.
(15:19:22) Aqua: Not confused
(15:19:27) Lykeios: only because I just arrived in the middle of the creed
(15:19:36) Rosalyn_J: what were you thinking?
(15:19:39) Kamizu: "Well, I guess we're doing this first now, ok then! "
(15:20:12) Lykeios: Oh, good, I'm pleased now, I thought I'd missed the sermon
(15:20:22) Angwusi: me too lol
(15:20:26) Rosalyn_J: haha only beginning
(15:20:32) Joe: About what? To me everything is normal. Except there's more people in here. Other than that, no.
(15:20:49) Gwinn: I noticed the difference between this and what normally happens, but was happy to go with it
(15:20:56) Alexandre_Orion: I think I know where she's going with this ... so, I'll just sit here and listen
(15:21:09) Rosalyn_J: I think that it must have thrown off the latecomers
(15:21:25) Rosalyn_J: watching us do the creed and going "well damn"
(15:21:35) Alexandre_Orion:
(15:21:37) Joe agrees, and had the exact same thought.
(15:21:44) Angwusi: exactly
(15:21:53) Lykeios: I just thought "well, I guess I missed another one"
(15:22:15) Rosalyn_J: Right because "traditionally" the creed is done at the end
(15:22:26) Joe: Aah.
(15:22:35) Aqua: if you can go clockwise, you can go counter clockwise :favorite:
(15:22:44) Rosalyn_J: You know I thought of doing something really outlandish
(15:22:56) Angwusi: doing it in the middle?
(15:23:08) Joe: like having people talk during the ceremony?
(15:23:10) Rosalyn_J: I thought about jumbling the words of the cread
(15:23:18) Rosalyn_J: creed*
(15:23:32) Rosalyn_J: just changing a few words here or there
(15:23:34) hiddeninthesnow:
(15:23:46) Ryan_Campopiano: :O:O:O:O
(15:23:54) Lykeios: sounds like something I did in the past...
(15:23:55) Rosalyn_J: I am a Jedi, an instrument of passion;
(15:24:13) Alexandre_Orion: (don't worry anyone .. that is not blasphemy !)
(15:24:13) Rosalyn_J: Where there is hatred I shall bring joy;
(15:24:18) Angwusi: you'd have everyone stammering and confused
(15:24:19) Aqua: I am a Jedi, an instrument of passion;
(15:24:35) Rosalyn_J: and on and on
(15:24:35) Kamizu: I would have been confused lol
(15:24:42) Ryan_Campopiano: PEACE-PASSION LEADS TO THE DARK SIDE!!!
(15:24:50) Rosalyn_J: just mixing 'em up abit
(15:24:52) Joe: I would totally sight "where there is faith, doubt".
(15:24:57) Joe: sign*
(15:25:15) Konstan: yeah, exactly my thought!
(15:25:36) Rosalyn_J: Like Alex says, it isn't blasphemy
(15:25:41) Rosalyn_J: BUT...
(15:25:49) Rosalyn_J: I didn't do it
(15:26:20) Rosalyn_J: It didn't feel right
(15:26:48) Knvii: it would be hard to understand if it's changed..
(15:26:49) Rosalyn_J: This Creed...as it is...right now
(15:26:56) Rosalyn_J: is tradition
(15:27:15) Rosalyn_J: So, today I want us to explore what tradition is
(15:27:22) Knvii: especially for someone just starting to learn all the stuff...
(15:27:29) Rosalyn_J: right
(15:27:44) Rosalyn_J: I'm going to pose a few questions to you all
(15:28:10) Rosalyn_J: and we are going to have a bit of a discussion
(15:28:16) Knvii: but.. passion does give a taste of the dark side???
(15:28:19) Angwusi: fun
(15:28:33) Rosalyn_J: There are some rules though:
1. I want nothing I can find on google. I want your opinions
2. The time limit for discussion of each question will be five minutes
(15:28:35) Kamizu: No it doesn't Knivii
(15:28:42) Lykeios: passion is passion
(15:28:48) Alexandre_Orion: we can talk about passion later
(15:28:53) Alexandre_Orion: passion is suffering
(15:28:54) Aqua: hehe
(15:29:02) Rosalyn_J: ok lol
(15:29:06) Rosalyn_J: focus focus
(15:29:14) Rosalyn_J: the ground rules are above you
(15:29:34) hiddeninthesnow nods

(15:29:53) Joe will try to type quickly, so he will nopt care for typos anymore.
(15:30:28) Aqua: Tradition, set of actions that symbolize metaphors.
(15:30:35) Gwinn: I think it's a type of ritual done for a certain occasion
(15:30:40) Kamizu: A song in "Fiddler on the Roof" or a repetitive, usually meaningful action
(15:30:50) Kyrin_Wyldstar: an agreed upon set of practices for a group
(15:30:53) Angwusi: tradition is an outside value that we give to something that is or is not concrete, it helps us feel consistency in an ever changing world
(15:30:55) Joe: Tradition... Actually every activity you do regularly. some of them have been done this or that way that their reason has been lost to the ages.
(15:30:57) Lykeios: tradition? routine activities done by a person or group of people that have meaning for those people
(15:30:58) Alexandre_Orion: ah ... there is a difference between tradition and ritual
(15:30:59) Konstan: a set of patterns of human behavior aiming to teach a person certain ways of interaction with the world and society
(15:31:27) Atticus509: Tradition is doing what's predictable and expected, doing things the way they have "always been done".
(15:31:33) Siothurn: I feel traditon is a means of human connection between groups of people through actions and stories.
(15:31:40) Rosalyn_J: Oh Maitre, that's intriguing
(15:31:54) Alexandre_Orion:
(15:32:11) Rosalyn_J: Ok so what is the difference between TRADITION, RITUAL and ROUTINE?
(15:32:25) hiddeninthesnow: tradition is things you do because you've always done them. like watching some certain movie on the eve of a holiday. it doesn't always make sense.
(15:32:45) hiddeninthesnow: but you do it anyway.
(15:32:57) Joe: Performing a ritual can be part of a tradition. But only if it is done routinely.
(15:33:16) hiddeninthesnow: tradition is the most formal revered one.
(15:33:24) Joe: they sort of link together that way.
(15:33:27) Kamizu: Routine's more short-term like a day-to-day thing. Traditions tend to be more yearly and event-based can be family or cultural. Ritual has spiritual connections to it.
(15:33:31) Rosalyn_J: well, thanks Joe, now I am even more confused
(15:33:33) Lykeios: traditions have ties to history. ritual often has some significance beyond the mundane. routines? I can give examples: brushing one's teeth, bathing, eating meals i.e. things that one does on a regular basis for some reason, often with a utilitarian purpose
(15:33:39) Aqua: tradition is set of actions to sybolize metaphors, ritual is not bound to rules except to honor something/someone, routine is only that it is done with rythm. Something a ritual does not have to, but a tradition must have
(15:34:00) Angwusi: tradition is a set or actions that is practiced on a very grande scale by many people, a ritual is something performed by a large group of people in faith, routine is habitual
(15:34:00) Atticus509: I think it's got something to do with the reason you do them.
(15:34:11) Konstan: ok, a ritual is an algorithm of actions that mean something symbolically to a person or a group of people. Routine is a set of everyday actions without a symbolical meaning. Tradition is a larger thing - it includes both routine and rituals
(15:34:20) Joe: You are welcome. But remember, chaos, yet harmony. Somewhere in our confusing mess of more or less random thoughts, the answer is hidden! Maybe.
(15:34:32) Rosalyn_J:
(15:34:55) Rosalyn_J: ok. So we'll take a small break and try to wrap our head around a wall of text
(15:34:59) Joe chuckles.
(15:35:09) Lykeios grins
(15:36:27) Alexandre_Orion: I didn't get to explain
(15:36:31) Alexandre_Orion:
(15:36:33) Joe: none of the things written above is wrong, as far as i can see. How very productive. I hope someone's recording this! History, people, history.
(15:36:38) Konstan: hm, a ritual should have a symbolic meaning but sometimes we do it without being conscious about it and then it can turn into routine...
(15:36:42) Angwusi: we say the creed the same way every time as a tradition, all as one as a ritual, and we have gotten in a routine of doing it at the end of the sermon
(15:36:59) Aqua: O:-D Like to read yours Alexandre
(15:37:06) Lykeios: me too
(15:37:21) Rosalyn_J: Ok so let Alex explain the difference between routine and ritual
(15:37:58) Alexandre_Orion: let's start with the easiest : a routine is simply a repetitive pattern that emerges in the course of part of someone's life
(15:37:58) Rosalyn_J: I mean tradition and ritual
(15:39:20) Alexandre_Orion: a tradition is a a manner of doing 'something' carried out over successive generations in a particular culture that is perhaps meaning-bearing, though that meaning may have been lost,
(15:39:32) Alexandre_Orion: a tradition could have begun as a ritual
(15:40:16) Alexandre_Orion: a ritual, for it to be a true "ritual" -- the "meaning" (I'm using the term very loosely here) must be current
(15:40:27) Temple Bot: MartaLina has been logged out (Timeout).
(15:40:49) Alexandre_Orion: it is an act that resets our clocks : synchronising our lived 'profane' time to Eternity
(15:40:53) Alexandre_Orion: the timeless
(15:41:02) Alexandre_Orion: the "once upon a time" sort
(15:41:26) Alexandre_Orion: every act of a ritual is the way it was done "in the beginning"
(15:41:37) Alexandre_Orion: and in the symbolic presence of the divine
(15:41:57) Alexandre_Orion: thus
(15:42:26) Alexandre_Orion: after the "ritual" one returns to the mundane, everyday stuff, but with a sense of renewal
(15:42:39) Alexandre_Orion: the World has begun again, so to speak
(15:42:51) Alexandre_Orion:
(15:42:54) Lykeios: yes one certainly does
(15:43:18) Rosalyn_J: "The beginning" of course being defined by the "group"?
(15:43:24) Aqua: MM.. but besides the current thingy, they are the same?
(15:43:36) Aqua: ritual and tradition?
(15:43:41) Rosalyn_J: for whom the ritual is important
(15:43:48) Alexandre_Orion: yes
(15:44:01) Alexandre_Orion: and no, Aqua ... but we can talk about that later
(15:44:05) Konstan: could you explain more about 'in the beginning'?
(15:44:26) Konstan: does the ritual resemble the creation of the world in some way?
(15:44:43) Aqua: Thank you Alexandre, we will
(15:44:47) Konstan: 'in the beginning' of what?
(15:45:00) Alexandre_Orion: "in the beginning" of time
(15:45:09) Rosalyn_J: exactly
(15:45:11) Alexandre_Orion: when what we do all the time was done first
(15:45:34) Alexandre_Orion: when "living" began
(15:45:52) hiddeninthesnow: when the tradition was established
(15:46:00) Alexandre_Orion: but realise, this "beginning" is only symbolic
(15:46:02) Lykeios: I will bite my tongue and remain quiet. thank you, Alexandre
(15:46:20) Alexandre_Orion:
(15:46:20) Rosalyn_J: well the tradition would have not been established in the beginning
(15:46:35) Joe raises his eyebrows.
(15:46:42) Rosalyn_J: that would have been the first time
(15:47:00) Rosalyn_J: when does something become a tradition?
(15:47:02) hiddeninthesnow nods
(15:47:40) Rosalyn_J: ok so much for the five minute time limit
(15:47:43) Rosalyn_J:
(15:47:51) Joe: What if i establish a tradition on purpose? Like an annual gathering amongst friends?

(15:48:40) Joe nods at hiddeninsnow.
(15:48:53) Angwusi: holidays are traditional
(15:49:22) Alexandre_Orion: Birthdays ...
(15:49:26) Konstan: celebrating New Year, shaking hands when greeting each other
(15:49:30) Dechlain: Superbowl parties
(15:49:39) Alexandre_Orion: (whispers) cheers, Ros !
(15:49:54) Aqua: eating?
(15:50:07) Kyrin_Wyldstar: what about Christianity?
(15:50:09) Alexandre_Orion: eating ???
(15:50:10) Knvii: can tradition leads to cliche?
(15:50:17) Gwinn: Perhaps not eating in general, but perhaps eating a certain thing
(15:50:29) Angwusi: i think eating is a necessity
(15:50:29) Siothurn: memorial cermonies like veterans day?
(15:50:31) Temple Bot: Avalonslight has been logged out (Timeout).
(15:50:33) Aqua: it is repeatable, and some find it special to their culture
(15:50:34) Gwinn: In my area, it's tradition to eat pork and sauerkraut on New Years Day
(15:50:38) Joe: A lot of things that seem unthinkable to many people to live without... Monogamous marriage, eating together, watching tv in the evening, reading a newspaper in the morning, etc.
(15:50:39) Rosalyn_J: Good, Good, keep this going
(15:51:50) Lykeios: tradition can be a cliche, absolutely
(15:51:51) Aqua: Mm.. nice tradition.. story telling?
(15:51:51) Rosalyn_J: Going in line with Gwinn,when do we know that something is a tradition?
(15:51:54) Joe: Being offended by public nudity.
(15:51:58) Siothurn: family reunions
(15:52:44) Lykeios: probably when the government tries to ban it or a company buys the rights to it
(15:52:47) Angwusi: many people doing the same action over a certain set amount makes a thing a tradition, doesn't it?
(15:52:54) Dechlain: Once it has been done a second time with plans to repeat it again, and again.
(15:52:57) Alexandre_Orion: I feel that we know that something has become a tradition when we find ourselves respecting it but do not necessarily know why
(15:53:11) Temple Bot: MrBruno has joined the chat.
(15:53:15) Konstan: something is a tradition when a person learns it from the society, not develops himself from his own experience
(15:53:17) Angwusi: *of time
(15:53:20) Siothurn: it seems like it feels like a few years of doing something before it becomes tradition
(15:53:20) Alexandre_Orion: I do not think that doing something twice makes a tradtion
(15:53:27) Rosalyn_J: awesome
(15:53:33) Aqua: would almost say that everything that has human actions involved can become a tradition 8o
(15:53:36) hiddeninthesnow: when people sort of automatically have a fondness for something and want it back, you know?
(15:53:47) Alexandre_Orion: doing something in more or less the same way in particular intervals ... that perhaps
(15:53:47) Lykeios:
(15:53:49) hiddeninthesnow: we're creatures of memory
(15:54:00) Rosalyn_J: What would we say to an answer like "I know something is a tradition when someone tries to change it and I go STOP that
(15:54:02) Alexandre_Orion: actually, Snowy
(15:54:05) Rosalyn_J: "
(15:54:09) Alexandre_Orion: traditions serve the contrary
(15:54:23) Alexandre_Orion: that we are creatures of very faulty memory
(15:54:25) hiddeninthesnow: to... break the memories?
(15:54:38) Lykeios: my thoughts precisely, Alexandre
(15:54:39) Alexandre_Orion: and temporal "bookmarks" come in very handy
(15:54:51) hiddeninthesnow: ah! that's a good point... we kind of fluff them up and make them better than they were
(15:54:56) Joe: to help remember something? the beginning you spoke of?
(15:54:59) Rosalyn_J: well like with the Creed
(15:55:25) Rosalyn_J: it was a little...uh
(15:55:31) Rosalyn_J: ya know
(15:55:35) Lykeios: unexpected
(15:55:46) Rosalyn_J: even for me and I know (a little) where I was going
(15:55:48) Aqua: tradition that stops, is no longer a tradition?
(15:56:10) Rosalyn_J: that is true
(15:56:12) Joe: to be honest i was thinking "Oh, other way around. fine.". .
(15:56:35) Rosalyn_J: its a change of very little consequence
(15:56:37) Alexandre_Orion: ah !
(15:56:38) Alexandre_Orion: but
(15:56:40) Rosalyn_J: honestly
(15:56:43) Lykeios: It was a pleasant surprise, Ros
(15:56:43) Alexandre_Orion: it was there
(15:57:17) Angwusi: what bothered me is that i thought i got here too late, not the order itself
(15:57:37) Rosalyn_J: but say I tried to change...oh my country's flag
(15:57:47) Siothurn: I got to go get ready for work. Thank you for the sermon Rosalyn, Alexandre and everyone else.
(15:57:49) Lykeios: good luck
(15:58:00) Alexandre_Orion:
(15:58:05) hiddeninthesnow: that wouldn't go over well. people get so attached to their symbols.
(15:58:10) Rosalyn_J: its fabric
(15:58:13) Lykeios: sadly, yes, hidden
(15:58:22) Konstan: what do you think of breaking traditions? when is it good? when is it bad?
(15:58:29) Angwusi: that changes the idea behind the tradition
(15:58:42) Rosalyn_J: we'll will (hopefully get to that)
(15:59:13) Alexandre_Orion: traditions break themselves
(15:59:26) Rosalyn_J: We'll say I tried to change marriage
(15:59:36) Alexandre_Orion: there is nothing more successful at keeping a tradition alive than to try to get rid of it
(15:59:36) Lykeios: oh please do...
(15:59:52) Kyrin_Wyldstar: we just did in the us lol
(16:00:08) Kyrin_Wyldstar: *USA
(16:00:13) Rosalyn_J: Now do to deal with the shortage of women, women can now have more than one mate
(16:00:44) Alexandre_Orion: (don't they usually anyway ... ? )
(16:00:49) Rosalyn_J: that would be an interesting discussion
(16:00:58) Lykeios: I was going to say something to that effect myself
(16:01:00) Rosalyn_J: and speaking of marriage
(16:01:02) Alexandre_Orion: (( just teasing !! )
(16:01:23) Rosalyn_J: the US recently passed a law, thank you Kyrin
(16:01:33) Rosalyn_J: but HOW MANY years
(16:02:10) Rosalyn_J: because people get attached to their OWN views of tradition
(16:02:21) Kyrin_Wyldstar: It was a battle Royal for decades.. and its still not over really
(16:02:49) Joe: We're still fighting here in Germany.
(16:02:59) Alexandre_Orion: ... and in France
(16:03:06) Lykeios: I still advocate for change
(16:03:08) Angwusi: still a big battle here in Al.
(16:03:10) Lykeios: here in the US
(16:03:19) Rosalyn_J: but as we saw at the beginning of the sermon, for each person there is a specific and individual definition of tradition
(16:03:58) Joe: Sadly, some backwater boneheads still believe homosexuality is a mental illness that can be exorcized.
(16:04:00) Aqua: does that make it true? is assumption true?
(16:04:11) Joe will calm down, now.
(16:04:22) Aqua: just little wonders..
(16:04:22) Konstan: well, for some people a tradition works, for others it doesn't
(16:04:37) Rosalyn_J: thats an interesting point
(16:04:39) Lykeios is in agreement with Joe and will remain calm
(16:04:43) hiddeninthesnow pats Joe
(16:04:47) Rosalyn_J: which leads me to my next question
(16:04:49) Angwusi: sometimes tradition conflicts with religious belief
(16:05:01) Alexandre_Orion: for some people the very same thing is an earnest ritual, whereas for others it is a tradition

(16:05:22) Konstan: respecting the tradition and someone's view on it and obeying the tradition are different things
(16:05:27) Alexandre_Orion: stagnation
(16:05:30) Kyrin_Wyldstar: stagnation
(16:05:30) Lykeios: stagnation
(16:05:34) Kyrin_Wyldstar: lol yea what he said
(16:05:34) Lykeios: son of a diddly
(16:05:35) Lykeios:
(16:05:39) Rosalyn_J: ok
(16:05:43) Alexandre_Orion:
(16:05:57) Aqua: pitfalls of tradition?, Difference in understanding the tradition. Assumption
(16:06:10) Konstan: forgetting the meaning behind it
(16:06:22) Rosalyn_J: yea yea certainly
(16:06:22) Joe: One is that Society is ever-changing, whereas traditions live from staying stagnant. If they are taken too seriously, society endangers itself to living under obsolete rules.
(16:06:23) Angwusi: tradition is not always "one size fits all"
(16:06:32) Konstan: when we repeat something, we get used to it and forget what it meant in the beginning
(16:06:32) Rosalyn_J: right
(16:06:54) Alexandre_Orion: I don't want to go off on a long tirade ...
(16:06:56) Alexandre_Orion: but
(16:07:03) Rosalyn_J: lol
(16:07:07) Joe: Oh, good, we are all thinking the same thing. I am Slowjoe.
(16:07:09) Kyrin_Wyldstar: how about undue power? Im thinking of the christian church in tbe 1600s
(16:07:22) Alexandre_Orion: most Religions (notice the "R" capital)
(16:07:34) Alexandre_Orion: most Religions are merely associations
(16:07:45) Aqua: What is a ''R'' capital?
(16:07:55) Alexandre_Orion: hence, the question : "what Religion are you ?"
(16:08:27) Alexandre_Orion: like you might respond "Federalist" or "Socialist" or "Franc Mason"
(16:08:49) Lykeios: or I might say "none of your darn business"
(16:08:51) Alexandre_Orion: it is because there is very little of the religious mind left in Religions
(16:09:02) Aqua: you mean that capitalizing the word would give it more status?
(16:09:05) Alexandre_Orion: but that would be the same answer, Adam
(16:09:07) Alexandre_Orion: no
(16:09:34) Alexandre_Orion: I say with capital 'R' as to distinguish from religion
(16:09:34) Lykeios: fair play to you
(16:10:04) Alexandre_Orion: religion (small 'r') cannot be "belonged to"
(16:10:09) Kyrin_Wyldstar: well that is true but in a pure form I think they emulate tradition. they may grow to big over time to fit that but I think they start that way
(16:10:11) Rosalyn_J: eh
(16:10:23) Rosalyn_J: we got a little tangential
(16:10:24) Aqua: ahh but what makes Religion different from ''normal'' religion?
(16:10:32) Joe: So if i said to you to that question that i was a panteist, that answer would have been wrong?
(16:10:39) Alexandre_Orion: Religion is subscribing to a Religious authority
(16:10:39) Joe: pantheist*
(16:10:49) Rosalyn_J: guys lol
(16:11:00) Aqua: Guess I will ask you later about it alexandre
(16:11:04) Lykeios: yes, we did go on a tangent, Ros
(16:11:28) Alexandre_Orion: that is just it, Aqua ... there is no "normal religion"
(16:11:37) Lykeios: pitfalls of tradition? losing one's own identity to the tradition(s)
(16:11:41) Aqua: then why use the Religion
(16:11:50) Aqua: if there is only 1 religion word
(16:11:55) Aqua: I find it confusing
(16:11:56) Alexandre_Orion: only "traditional Religions" -- in the organised sense
(16:11:57) Aqua: ;S
(16:12:02) Rosalyn_J: ok so we had finished talking about the pitfalls
(16:12:11) Alexandre_Orion: because that is what they are called
(16:12:24) Alexandre_Orion: I am talking about the pitfall, Ros
(16:12:43) Joe: Don't you interrupt the Orion!
(16:13:06) Joe: In your own sermon, no less
(16:13:22) Alexandre_Orion: religios -- to link back
(16:13:47) Lykeios: (whispers) I tried...
(16:13:47) Alexandre_Orion: it is not, as some say, to link people together in faith
(16:13:48) Alexandre_Orion: no
(16:14:03) Alexandre_Orion: it is to link oneself back to the transcendent
(16:14:22) Alexandre_Orion: that same divine presence as the ritual
(16:14:33) Alexandre_Orion: not the imaginary deity
(16:14:43) Alexandre_Orion: but to the pre-reflexive Self
(16:15:08) Alexandre_Orion: the primordial innocence
(16:15:31) Alexandre_Orion: before the passions and the phenomenal self took over
(16:15:39) Alexandre_Orion: the "is-ness" of Life
(16:15:56) Alexandre_Orion:
(16:16:00) Alexandre_Orion: thus
(16:16:22) Rosalyn_J: that's how my face looks right now
(16:16:50) Alexandre_Orion: a pitfall of tradition is to repeat a thing, not knowing why, and just obeying the "that's how it's done" because it always has been
(16:16:55) Angwusi hands Ros the Duct tape
(16:17:03) Alexandre_Orion:
(16:17:06) Alexandre_Orion: okay !
(16:17:10) Alexandre_Orion: I'll shut up now
(16:17:14) Alexandre_Orion:
(16:17:27) hiddeninthesnow: xD
(16:17:28) Rosalyn_J: Ang that was mean
(16:17:36) Rosalyn_J: lol
(16:17:37) Joe is entertained.
(16:17:40) Angwusi: hehehe im sorry
(16:17:49) Alexandre_Orion is duct-taped
(16:17:50) Lykeios joins Joe in amusement
(16:18:05) Lykeios cuts the duct-tape
(16:18:08) Rosalyn_J: no you're not alex
(16:18:13) Rosalyn_J: anyways
(16:18:13) Angwusi: i really want to hear what you have to say after were done alex
(16:18:14) Alexandre_Orion finds duct-tape pretty damn sticky
(16:18:15) hiddeninthesnow: we love you Alexadre
(16:18:25) Alexandre_Orion:
(16:18:34) Alexandre_Orion: thank you for letting me ramble

(16:20:01) Alexandre_Orion:
(16:20:14) Angwusi: vary rarely
(16:20:23) hiddeninthesnow: not nearly often enough.
(16:20:25) Alexandre_Orion: nearly always
(16:20:29) Kyrin_Wyldstar: I dont think any tradition should be practices without paying attention to the root.
(16:20:32) Konstan: oh, rarely indeed
(16:20:33) Lykeios: as often as I can, and if the traditions don't have a reason I like I tend to alter the tradition or give it new meaning
(16:20:50) Angwusi: a lot of modern tradition have evolved from other traditions that no longer even have connection to the root
(16:20:56) Rosalyn_J: For example?
(16:20:59) Aqua: I do it more often than I realize, particular attention.. every day culture is a tradition?
(16:21:01) Joe: maybe 5 times a year.
(16:21:11) Angwusi: putting up a christmas tree
(16:21:23) Lykeios: taking down a Christmas tree
(16:21:26) Lykeios:
(16:21:34) Aqua: Would say that I think every day about what I do, but I do not bind the word tradition to it I guess
(16:21:50) Rosalyn_J: that makes sense
(16:22:08) Joe: Having raclette with my friends on new years eve.
(16:22:33) Rosalyn_J: well, we know our traditions
(16:22:52) Rosalyn_J: how do we tie them (or retie them) to the root?
(16:23:16) Angwusi: we have to modify them?
(16:23:17) Kyrin_Wyldstar: without a very specific meaning behind the tradition it becomes meaningless. hence the reason xmas is so commercial now. the meaning has been lost for many
(16:23:29) Lykeios: by defining precisely what they represent on a very personal level and then continuing to practice them in a way "true" to that meaning
(16:23:38) Lykeios: of course not, Angwusi
(16:23:48) Konstan: I try to be conscious about some traditional things like religious holidays, but so many thing just go too fast
(16:24:20) Konstan: i think to tie a tradition to the root means to be in the present, to be conscious about what's happenning
(16:24:31) Kyrin_Wyldstar: we have to search out their meaning and reconnect with that and make it sacred again
(16:24:44) Lykeios: traditions must be sacred?
(16:24:55) Lykeios: couldn't that be a pitfall of maintaining a tradition?
(16:24:56) Angwusi: not at all
(16:25:11) Kyrin_Wyldstar: sacred in the sense of meaningful.
(16:25:15) Konstan: but it's hard to be in the moment, because mind always runs away in the turmoil four world:)
(16:25:24) Lykeios: ah, thank you Kyrin
(16:25:58) Rosalyn_J: I think thats very interesting
(16:26:18) Rosalyn_J: particularly the idea that the world moves too fast for us to be present
(16:26:20) Alexandre_Orion: I was trying to think of the one that I respect most frequently
(16:26:36) Alexandre_Orion: that would probably be "faire les bises" here in France
(16:26:45) Alexandre_Orion: it isn't done much anywhere else
(16:26:48) Kyrin_Wyldstar: but we should never do a thing just because everyone else does it.
(16:26:53) Angwusi: whats it about alex?
(16:27:08) Alexandre_Orion: (when we greet one another with a slight kiss to each cheek)
(16:27:23) Rosalyn_J: Wouldn't the time of "a tradition" be the time to be most present?
(16:27:25) Angwusi: ah
(16:27:31) Lykeios: I'd like to start that tradition here...but sadly it can mean things people don't want to be associated with here
(16:27:35) Joe: I have relatives in austria, they like to do that, too.
(16:27:49) Alexandre_Orion: it has its origins in antiquity
(16:28:00) Rosalyn_J: thinking about it, our traditions only come around every once in a while
(16:28:04) Alexandre_Orion: but, Adam ... it can have those associations here too
(16:28:14) Lykeios: I don't doubt that
(16:28:22) Alexandre_Orion: that is why there are some pretty rigorous codes about it
(16:28:34) Alexandre_Orion: of course, most people don't know them
(16:28:38) Angwusi: the act of kissing is a strange tradition in and of itself, pressing your mouth against someone
(16:28:51) Lykeios: it is a beautiful tradition
(16:28:57) Alexandre_Orion: that also has its origins in antiquity
(16:29:02) Kyrin_Wyldstar: :-*
(16:29:04) Alexandre_Orion: and in evolution as well
(16:29:06) Lykeios:
(16:29:14) Joe: i don't know. I find it uncomfortable.
(16:29:22) Joe: Really uncomfortable.
(16:29:22) Alexandre_Orion: kissing is a sign of confidence
(16:29:34) Angwusi: it is good for you
(16:29:41) Alexandre_Orion: it was also a way of getting close enough to smell something wrong
(16:29:50) Rosalyn_J: well
(16:29:53) Angwusi: especially as a mother kisses a child
(16:29:55) peace: it's totally good for us
(16:30:01) Lykeios: yes it is
(16:30:05) Alexandre_Orion: we don't have such keen senses of smell nowdays
(16:30:10) Angwusi: strengthens the immune system
(16:30:12) Joe: I don't have too much of that confidence stuff lying around.
(16:30:14) Konstan: it must be confusing when you know that kissing tradition and the one whom you kiss does not...
(16:30:25) Rosalyn_J: ANYWAYS
(16:30:37) Alexandre_Orion: it is probably why I don't get kissed much
(16:30:48) Alexandre_Orion: except for "les bises"
(16:30:56) Aqua:
(16:31:05) Almeida: are we talking kisses?
(16:31:07) Konstan: yeah)
(16:31:20) Rosalyn_J: Ive lost complete control
(16:31:24) Lykeios: I believe Ros wanted to move on
(16:31:25) Rosalyn_J: sigh
(16:31:33) Angwusi motions the duct tape to ros again
(16:31:37) Alexandre_Orion hands Ros back her control
(16:31:45) Almeida: In Brazil, it's really common, and considered impolite if you don't do so, for women to kiss each other (on the cheeks) when they meet, and for a man and woman to do that as well.
(16:31:51) Almeida: handshake, then cheek kiss
(16:32:19) Aqua: *gives ros a tissue*
(16:32:29) Rosalyn_J: ok
(16:32:35) Alexandre_Orion tries to get out of the duct-tape again
(16:32:42) Konstan: well, back to the course, the 'link' is always between present and its origins, so the you have to be in present to actually create a link, right?
(16:33:01) Rosalyn_J: so going back to the idea that the world moves to fast to be present
(16:33:12) Konstan: if you know the origin of a tradition, but you are not conscious bout it in the present moment - the knowledge doesn't help
(16:33:34) Rosalyn_J: its WHY we have ritual, perhaps not tradition, but ritual
(16:33:35) Proteus: 15 in here. made me wonder if the service was Still going on
(16:33:45) Almeida: same
(16:33:52) Rosalyn_J: yes Pro
(16:34:09) Alexandre_Orion gets free of the duct-tape
(16:34:14) Alexandre_Orion: Hi GE !
(16:34:21) Konstan: yes, and a tradition consists of forgotten rituals, doesn't it?
(16:34:21) Angwusi: we use ritual to step out of time?
(16:34:29) Rosalyn_J: right
(16:34:29) Kyrin_Wyldstar: exactly, ritual gives that time out of time so we can be present
(16:34:31) Alexandre_Orion: it can
(16:34:37) Lykeios: I certainly do, Angwusi
(16:34:39) Rosalyn_J: well step out of OUR version of time
(16:34:45) Alexandre_Orion: not all traditions began as rituals
(16:34:48) Rosalyn_J: and step into eternity
(16:34:57) Alexandre_Orion: exactly
(16:35:00) Alexandre_Orion:
(16:35:01) Aqua: good job Alexandre! ehm.. about that why we have ritual, would you suggest that tradition is not within the present?
(16:35:03) Alexandre_Orion: good Ros !
(16:35:11) Proteus: ooOOoo a juicy topic too!
(16:35:14) Aqua: If ritual and tradition are the same, both can be within present
(16:35:15) Lykeios: hear hear, Ros!
(16:35:21) Joe: is there a difference between this eternity and the beginning alex spoke of earlier?
(16:35:38) Aqua: Alexandre said himself.. there are no other differences than,,'' ..
(16:35:39) Rosalyn_J: but they aren't aqua
(16:35:45) Aqua: oO
(16:35:45) Alexandre_Orion: Eternity doesn't have a beginning, Joe
(16:35:52) Alexandre_Orion: our profane time does
(16:35:57) Aqua: ehm now I get confused
(16:36:02) hiddeninthesnow: I really love the idea that we can step "out of time" via tradition. Beautiful.
(16:36:03) Aqua: again
(16:36:05) Rosalyn_J: Tradition MAY have been ritual, but not necessarily
(16:36:08) Alexandre_Orion: the ritual is what synchronises them for us
(16:36:28) Alexandre_Orion: not all traditions began like that
(16:36:38) Alexandre_Orion: Thanksgiving, for instance
(16:36:53) Alexandre_Orion: or Guy Fawkes day
(16:37:17) Proteus: eternity is just another word for the "ever present moment"
(16:37:20) Aqua: ehm that does make sense.. ritual as the most present tradition to give attention to the traditions of the past?
(16:37:24) Proteus: as that is the one point that "always is"
(16:37:51) Lykeios: I have a tradition of my own to attend to shortly...
(16:38:14) Lykeios: I don't want to miss the end of the sermon, however
(16:38:21) Aqua: still they are the same..
(16:38:32) Aqua: so a ritual can be a tradition at the same time eh? 8o
(16:38:32) Rosalyn_J: ok we're wrapping up now
(16:39:24) Rosalyn_J: I promise to try and answer your question after the sermon Aqua
(16:39:34) Rosalyn_J: so last question really quick
(16:39:46) Aqua: Thank you, force be with you Rosalyn

(16:39:56) Proteus: Was this a discussion service?
(16:40:06) Lykeios: yes, pro
(16:40:06) Rosalyn_J: yep
(16:40:18) hiddeninthesnow: When it's become damaging to others.
(16:40:20) Proteus:
(16:40:26) Angwusi: when it no longer serves its purpose
(16:40:31) hiddeninthesnow: When we don't understand it anymore and the meaning is hopelessly lost.
(16:40:43) Lykeios: and I must apologize, I'm not going to have to leave as soon as I thought. no need to rush the final question discussion time
(16:41:00) Dechlain: When the world around it has changed and requires it to evolve
(16:41:05) hiddeninthesnow: it was, Proteus and it was awesome.
(16:41:16) Joe: as soon as it interferes with our human rights, or impedes the dignity of a group of people, maybe.
(16:41:52) hiddeninthesnow: "when it's no longer fun"
(16:41:58) Angwusi: maybe it should always evolve because nothing stays the same
(16:42:12) Kyrin_Wyldstar: when it costs to much
(16:42:29) Konstan: for some people a tradition works for a long time; for the others - it doesn't work from the beginning. In time the become more and more people for whom the tradition doesn't work. Then they create their own tradition. And the old one eventually dies out.
(16:42:31) hiddeninthesnow: ooo, good answer, kyrin
(16:42:37) Lykeios: too much money? or when it is too costly on a personal level, Kyrin?
(16:42:38) Rosalyn_J: We're looking at you Christmas
(16:42:39) Aqua: evolution serves purpose.. tradition evolves trough benefits it give to culture?
(16:42:51) Kyrin_Wyldstar: money
(16:43:01) Kyrin_Wyldstar: but either works I guess lol
(16:43:02) hiddeninthesnow: and social cost
(16:43:43) Lykeios: better way of putting that, hidden, that is what I meant
(16:43:50) Alexandre_Orion: Ros ... you did a great job with this -- and a brilliant topic !
(16:43:57) Alexandre_Orion: I'm going to bed though
(16:44:00) Lykeios: ditto
(16:44:05) Alexandre_Orion: it is a quarter 'til 2
(16:44:12) Rosalyn_J: Ok see ya later.
(16:44:13) Lykeios: 0_o
(16:44:18) hiddeninthesnow: goodnight, alexandre... enjoy your free duct tape everywhere xD
(16:44:25) Alexandre_Orion: have a good evening everyone !
(16:44:27) hiddeninthesnow: hehe
(16:44:30) Proteus wishes he didn't get off work so late
(16:44:32) Rosalyn_J: (whispers to Alexandre_Orion) thanks so much for hanging in there
(16:44:34) Kyrin_Wyldstar: good nite!
(16:44:34) Lykeios: bye for now Alexandre, good night
(16:44:35) Joe is celebrating the winter-family-karaoke holiday instead of christmas.
(16:44:35) Alexandre_Orion: .. Snowy
(16:44:37) Dechlain: Bon nuit, monsieur.
(16:44:44) Angwusi: by alex mtfbwy! i still wanna contue what you were talking about.
(16:44:44) Konstan: thanks for your insights, Alexandre!
(16:44:56) Lykeios: I'm about to go home so I can get ready for dinner out with my family
(16:44:59) Alexandre_Orion: (whispers) it really is a great sermon, Ros
(16:45:12) Lykeios: apparently I do have to leave after all, lol. thanks for a wonderful sermon and discussion, Ros and everyone
(16:45:13) Alexandre_Orion: (whispers) be sure to get it into the Sermons
(16:45:23) Lykeios: Go with the Force in peace fellow Jedi
(16:45:26) hiddeninthesnow waves to lykeios
(16:45:30) Aqua: Thank you for being with us Maitre Alexandre, always fun having you around wen ducktape comes
(16:45:34) Dechlain: MTFBWY Lyk and Alex
(16:45:38) Angwusi: bye lyke mtfbwy
(16:45:43) Alexandre_Orion:
(16:45:51) Aqua: sleep well Lykeios
(16:45:58) Aqua: May the force shine with you both
(16:46:23) Konstan: it's 2.45am in Ukraine and we have a tradition to go to bed earlier... I'm breaking that old tradition right now!
(16:46:28) Joe: so wait, is the sermon now over? O_o
(16:46:32) Joe: Bye, lyk!
(16:46:56) Joe: we are barely a hundred minutes in!
(16:47:06) Dechlain: LMAO Joe
(16:47:07) Temple Bot: Lykeios has been logged out (Timeout).
(16:47:23) Rosalyn_J: Ok. Guys. We're going to wrap this up. Thank you all for your wonderful contributions. This was really awesome. I hope to do more like these in the future

(16:07:22) Alexandre_Orion: most Religions (notice the "R" capital)
(16:07:34) Alexandre_Orion: most Religions are merely associations
(16:07:45) Aqua: What is a ''R'' capital?
(16:07:55) Alexandre_Orion: hence, the question : "what Religion are you ?"
(16:08:27) Alexandre_Orion: like you might respond "Federalist" or "Socialist" or "Franc Mason"
(16:08:49) Lykeios: or I might say "none of your darn business"
(16:08:51) Alexandre_Orion: it is because there is very little of the religious mind left in Religions
(16:09:02) Aqua: you mean that capitalizing the word would give it more status?
(16:09:05) Alexandre_Orion: but that would be the same answer, Adam
(16:09:07) Alexandre_Orion: no
(16:09:34) Alexandre_Orion: I say with capital 'R' as to distinguish from religion
(16:09:34) Lykeios: fair play to you
(16:10:04) Alexandre_Orion: religion (small 'r') cannot be "belonged to"
(16:10:09) Kyrin_Wyldstar: well that is true but in a pure form I think they emulate tradition. they may grow to big over time to fit that but I think they start that way
(16:10:11) Rosalyn_J: eh
(16:10:23) Rosalyn_J: we got a little tangential
(16:10:24) Aqua: ahh but what makes Religion different from ''normal'' religion?
(16:10:32) Joe: So if i said to you to that question that i was a panteist, that answer would have been wrong?
(16:10:39) Alexandre_Orion: Religion is subscribing to a Religious authority
(16:10:39) Joe: pantheist*
(16:10:49) Rosalyn_J: guys lol
(16:11:00) Aqua: Guess I will ask you later about it alexandre
(16:11:04) Lykeios: yes, we did go on a tangent, Ros
(16:11:28) Alexandre_Orion: that is just it, Aqua ... there is no "normal religion"
(16:11:37) Lykeios: pitfalls of tradition? losing one's own identity to the tradition(s)
(16:11:41) Aqua: then why use the Religion
(16:11:50) Aqua: if there is only 1 religion word
(16:11:55) Aqua: I find it confusing
(16:11:56) Alexandre_Orion: only "traditional Religions" -- in the organised sense
(16:11:57) Aqua: ;S