Understanding Vader

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20 Apr 2017 22:48 #281430 by Eleven
Understanding Vader was created by Eleven
I recently after watching Rogue One. Vader, has very little scene time but, like said before that epic ending scene him chopping down the rebels was pretty awesome and very horrid. But, I begun to think, "Why Vader?" could, it be in between these times that his has fully been stripped of most of his humanity up until ROTJ? Then again he killed every Jedi in the temple on Corasaunt (Forgive my spelling). including the younglings who we're pretty much defenseless against the likes of vader. But, after he finds out that he's killed Padme at the ending of ROTS. It's as though like the Emperor intended and knew ahead of time that he would do this....Padme was Vader's Weakpoint and now it had been eliminated...or so the emperor thought...until Luke appeared. I know Vader was a soul that was clearly tortured and I dare say suffered some serious obsessive and possessive disorders even from a young age. But, I also, see alot of his own humanity and struggling to follow a set of codes that we're expected of him at such an early age and to continue to be...I wonder had his fate been different had he become more like Master Jinn and become more of a "grey" Jedi. I may of solved my own answers just written this down but, this is an open discussion. Any thoughts?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tl1zqH4lsSmKOyCLU9sdOSAUig7Q38QW4okOwSz2V4c/edit

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20 Apr 2017 23:36 #281432 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Understanding Vader
I think Episode II and III could have done a better job at showing his transition to the Dark Side. In episode III there is a conversation between Palpatine and Anakin that touches on the issue of moral relativism, but it should have been taken further to actually create palpable moral ambiguity, rather than simply making it about Anakin abandoning his belief system to save Padme.

The moral ambiguity allows for the very sound reasoning of abandoning the Jedi way of doing things for the Sith way, after all this is how things look by the end of Episode III:

Jedi Way
* Jedi are dispatched to deal with Galactic problems, but are only allowed to intervene up to a point.
* Because of said limits, corruption runs rampant in the Senate, and conflicts continue.
* Jedi are dispatched once again to deal with problems, but because of their limitations, this cycle persiste ad infinitum.
* In the meantime, Jedi have to neglect completely their own lives and those they love die.

Sith Way
* Covert Ops are run to rile up the trouble makers and create a war.
* Having trouble makes war with each other thins out their numbers.
* Lure them into a trap, kill off all opposition.
* Rule through supreme military force, with lasting peace and great effectiveness.
* In the meantime, Sith get to hang out with their SOs (provided they haven't killed them in anger).

I'm guessing Vader saw the Rebel Alliance as a nuisance to deal with, to later get back on schedule and continue to figure out how to use the Force to bring back Padme and eventually overthrow Palpatine.

Then again I haven't read the EU books, so who knows.
The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward

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20 Apr 2017 23:38 #281433 by Zenchi
Replied by Zenchi on topic Understanding Vader
First off, had things turned out well for Anaken the story wouldn't have been so interesting. He lost the first man that showed interest in him as a child, then his mother, all the while existing under the constant watchful eye of a council that did not think he was worthy, while being told he was the "chosen one."

He was a perfect storm psychologically speaking...
My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin

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20 Apr 2017 23:40 - 20 Apr 2017 23:43 #281434 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Understanding Vader
Fun!

I disagree, IMO, Vader at the end of ROTJ was still playing till the end, making the dark path more accessible to Luke by associating all that evil of Vader's doing with a friendly regretful soul. It would have been easier for Luke if Vader was an angry rabid animal. Luke would have been emboldened about the evil of the dark side but instead Luke was plunged headlong into the doubt and subsequent vulnerability that his light might too be corruptible to the same extents as his father before him.

Vader was Sith, Sith seek to control all avenues of power and so undermining his own son was his last act in that regard. And along those lines Vader seemed to view others as weak, and therefore not worthy of self determination. Why is another topic. What sort of Jedi should he have been.... he was too old (not so much in years perhaps but in fixation) to begin the training, as the Council said, and ignoring that distracted them to Palpy as Anakin must have continued to go off the rails on the inside to snap like he did. That's how I like to see it, let Vader be darkaf I say :)
Introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist.
Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
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Last edit: 20 Apr 2017 23:43 by Adder.

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21 Apr 2017 00:29 - 21 Apr 2017 00:43 #281438 by JamesSand
Replied by JamesSand on topic Understanding Vader

That's how I like to see it, let Vader be darkaf I say


Vader was a chump.

He didn't know how to be anything than a slave - from the moment he put his foot on the landing platform on Coruscant until the moment he died, he was just a weenie with superpowers, but no virtue or character with which to direct them. He was too busy using them to force choke admirals to realise he was standing in front of his own daughter - I suspect as time went on, sometime between becoming Vader and getting his arse handed to him by the Rebel Alliance a second time he realised he'd made some poor choices, and saw luke as his "out"

He didn't even have the dignity to believe in his own lifetime of bad decisions enough to die with them, he wussed out at the end, launched his (I admit, slightly jerkish) boss down a shaft, and begged for forgiveness.

He was ungrateful to Watto, he was ungrateful to Obiwan (and the rest of the Jedi team), he was ungrateful to Palpatine.

If he wasn't a level 9 Wizard, he would have just been old mate in the Cantina getting his arm chopped off over a spilt drink.

Edit: Luke needed him to be "Redeemed", but that's part of Luke's character, not Vader's.

I find it exceptionally unlikely that Anakin would have been able to establish force-ghost powers - at no stage did he show an understanding of the Force in the manner of Qui Gon, Yoda or Obiwan.

But what do I know? Underneath all that rage and always feeling trapped and manipulated, maybe he had a deep and compassionate understanding of the universe.


Edit 2: This may be where they are going with Kylo, trying to explore this idea with a bit more nuance than "Big Bad Repents on Deathbed"
Last edit: 21 Apr 2017 00:43 by JamesSand.
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21 Apr 2017 04:49 #281441 by
Replied by on topic Understanding Vader
He had a very caring , understanding and loving mother , he was a slave but did not seem to be abused. He showed a tendency to get his own way from a very early age , he got angy but did not understand or tolerate other people critisising him, His self reflection skills were very poor. He was clingy, possesive and whiney but very hard on other people. He could not get over himself so to say. What happened to his mother and how she died was extremely traumatic , he should have been treated tor PTTS , but its Star Wars and they like to keep it simple , and used his child hood trauma and unstable personality to create one of the best villains in fictional history. I almost felt sorry for him , almost

When i see how his children had to suffer because of his stupidities and lack of common sense i grew to resent him.Whatever childhood he had , he did not learn from it and became a better Jedi , no , he choose the Dark path.

So from an understanding point of view , i tried , but no , i dont understand Darth Vader

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21 Apr 2017 06:26 - 21 Apr 2017 06:27 #281448 by Zenchi
Replied by Zenchi on topic Understanding Vader
I understand him all too well, sadly enough. Anyone wanting to get a better understanding of Vader should read the books, especially those focusing on the time during the prequels, as soo much was left out of the movies. The comics are a great source as well...
My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin
Last edit: 21 Apr 2017 06:27 by Zenchi.

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21 Apr 2017 15:29 #281477 by
Replied by on topic Understanding Vader
I know I'm going a bit deep here and some of these connections are flimsy at best, but when considering Vader, we should also consider the inspirations for the character. Lucas has said before that the costume was inspired by Samurai armor and the character development was influenced by Japanese cinema.

When you put Vader's decisions and actions into this context, he is very much Bushido. He lives by the warrior's code, a very rigid moral code that instructs him to be loyal to his masters, often to a fault. He believes military might and Force powers are tools to maintain order just as Samurai were military tools to maintain order in feudal Japan. When Vader feels betrayed by his master Obi Wan and the other Jedi, he becomes Ronin. He is a Samurai without a master to serve and he has been shamed. Once he kills the younglings at the Temple, he has forfeited any sense of honor. The perceived betrayal by Padme is the final straw. There is no going back.
The only recourse in his mind now is to seek justice; to kill or subjugate anyone who contributed to his fall and regain his honor as a Samurai. He turns to the Emperor to fill his need to be a loyal servant. He resumes the ceremony of bowing and submitting to his master, but no one else. His loyalty lies only with whom he is sworn to protect.

His approach as Vader also becomes very authoritarian and mechanical. He revels in the organization of an empire that is ruled with an iron fist without any questioning of authority. He removes any sense of art, culture, creativity and emotion from his life. Luke is the only person left who can penetrate the emotional barrier he has created. It is this revival of emotional connection that ushers in the return of benevolence and mercy to Vader's character. He is reminded that a Samurai with the power to command and kill is also expected to display the equal powers of benevolence and mercy. He once again becomes conflicted. It is this conflict that causes him to question his own master's motive and intent and well as Palpatine's honor.

Vader's final redemption comes in his own form of Seppuku. He kills his lord who has betrayed him by corrupting the moral code he lives by, and in doing so willingly gives his own life. As a Samurai, when the master he is sworn to protect is killed, even by his own hand, he is obligated to end his own life as well, and he does.

I realize I'm taking a lot of liberties and some of this is a bit of a stretch, but this is one way I have come to understand Vader's motivations beyond just being a pissed off crybaby throwing the biggest tantrum in the history of the galaxy.

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21 Apr 2017 17:29 - 21 Apr 2017 17:49 #281493 by Zenchi
Replied by Zenchi on topic Understanding Vader
Warning: Spoiler!


Actually I believe you hit the nail on the head with quite a few of your points Senan.I do believe however the one thing that saved him was the simple fact that his son showed faith in him in the end...

I hate to make comparisons between my life and a fictional character, but this one in particular I have a little bit in common with, and it was faith bestowed upon myself from others that saved me from what would have been a very dark and violent end...
My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin
Last edit: 21 Apr 2017 17:49 by Zenchi.
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22 Apr 2017 18:23 - 22 Apr 2017 18:28 #281564 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Understanding Vader
I respect Zenchi's personal openness, and the thought of Vader as a samurai is pretty cool, (thanks Senan) but in the end, i agree with James's analysis more than any other

i see anakin as never taking genuine ownership for his life. i understand he was born a slave and was probably taught at the earliest age that it wasnt his place to take ownership, so its not like its an unexpected or unreasonable flaw of character. no one in his life seemed to want him to decide for himself either. Qui gon could possibly have able to guide him into mature self determination but obiwan failed in that regard -obiwan knew he failed anakin in many regards, and i think that has a lot to do with how he handled luke later, but its another conversation

anakin was never his own man, thats why he was vulnerable to being exploited by palpatine. and yeah he was manipulated and exploited, so he was a victim of a predator. but he went along with the exploitation and became a victimizer and predator of the helpless himself, so he doesnt get let off the hook in my opinion

i believe people can change after falling low enough to genuinely hate what theyve become if theyre given a chance to change, and i think anakin did change, did "repent" at the end.
but the whole thing happened because he didnt take responsibility for owning his own life in the first place.
thats how i understand vader
People are complicated.
Last edit: 22 Apr 2017 18:28 by OB1Shinobi.
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