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In Context
09 Jan 2016 18:26 - 10 Jan 2016 00:34 #220423
by Reacher
Jedi Knight
The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity.
In Context was created by Reacher
I caught this gem and thought it was worth posting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN74bOubUug
I never really put much consideration into what the conflicts in Obi-Wan Kenobi's life cost him personally. I wonder if, beyond the 'more powerful than you can possibly imagine' aspect of allowing himself to be killed by Darth Vader, a human aspect of Obi-Wan was still in enormous pain over what happened with his apprentice, and wanted to end it by dying in an act of love. I'll need to do more thinking on this and would love to hear your thoughts.
Beyond that, I felt massive empathy for the character in this edited version. I don't know if other combat veterans felt similarly watching, but what we say and what we see are often two very different things in situations like this. My hope is that this illustration can help bridge the experience of when a person asks questions very personal to us that seem innocuous and harmless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN74bOubUug
I never really put much consideration into what the conflicts in Obi-Wan Kenobi's life cost him personally. I wonder if, beyond the 'more powerful than you can possibly imagine' aspect of allowing himself to be killed by Darth Vader, a human aspect of Obi-Wan was still in enormous pain over what happened with his apprentice, and wanted to end it by dying in an act of love. I'll need to do more thinking on this and would love to hear your thoughts.
Beyond that, I felt massive empathy for the character in this edited version. I don't know if other combat veterans felt similarly watching, but what we say and what we see are often two very different things in situations like this. My hope is that this illustration can help bridge the experience of when a person asks questions very personal to us that seem innocuous and harmless.
Jedi Knight
The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity.
Last edit: 10 Jan 2016 00:34 by Adder.
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10 Jan 2016 02:18 - 10 Jan 2016 02:46 #220494
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic In Context
i feel that obiwan is the most heroic and most tragic character in the stories
he constantly finds himself in situations where there are no good choices
he makes the best choice he can, and pursues it whole heartedly, and still people suffer as a result
i think its easy to blame him, yet without the benefit of hindsight, i personally find it difficult to fault him
i imagine he blamed himself for quite a lot though
he constantly finds himself in situations where there are no good choices
he makes the best choice he can, and pursues it whole heartedly, and still people suffer as a result
i think its easy to blame him, yet without the benefit of hindsight, i personally find it difficult to fault him
i imagine he blamed himself for quite a lot though
People are complicated.
Last edit: 10 Jan 2016 02:46 by OB1Shinobi.
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10 Jan 2016 10:10 #220563
by Gisteron
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Replied by Gisteron on topic In Context
When reviewing the OT I try to remember that they were completed some twenty years before Lucas' later vanity project.
The fall of Anakin Skywalker is of course canon by the time the credits for Return Of The Jedi roll, but it is a stretch to say that the vision the team had of what happened in the 80's was quite what we saw on screen in 2005.
Now, all that being said, while I do think that knowing the devastating revelations of The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi, we can retrospectively say that when Obi-Wan initiated Luke on his adventure there were some ugly memories long buried floating up in him. Nonetheless for the same reason I think Obi-Wan is being very controlled and by no means emotional in that scene. He chooses his narrative and his words very carefully, calculating with precision what buttons of Luke's to push as to set him on a path that will restore what he believes to be a better kind of galaxy. Indeed, it could be said that he leaves nothing to coincidence. Every choice he makes, everything he does from the moment he meets Luke is designed to further his plan. It would not even surprise me much if he knew of the attack on uncle Owen and aunt Beru, at least when it happened. He sees in Luke not only a new, but the only hope and so he invests everything he has left into that boy, but none of it is weakness. At every stage he knows exactly what he is doing.
The fall of Anakin Skywalker is of course canon by the time the credits for Return Of The Jedi roll, but it is a stretch to say that the vision the team had of what happened in the 80's was quite what we saw on screen in 2005.
Now, all that being said, while I do think that knowing the devastating revelations of The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi, we can retrospectively say that when Obi-Wan initiated Luke on his adventure there were some ugly memories long buried floating up in him. Nonetheless for the same reason I think Obi-Wan is being very controlled and by no means emotional in that scene. He chooses his narrative and his words very carefully, calculating with precision what buttons of Luke's to push as to set him on a path that will restore what he believes to be a better kind of galaxy. Indeed, it could be said that he leaves nothing to coincidence. Every choice he makes, everything he does from the moment he meets Luke is designed to further his plan. It would not even surprise me much if he knew of the attack on uncle Owen and aunt Beru, at least when it happened. He sees in Luke not only a new, but the only hope and so he invests everything he has left into that boy, but none of it is weakness. At every stage he knows exactly what he is doing.
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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10 Jan 2016 10:54 - 10 Jan 2016 10:57 #220567
by
Replied by on topic In Context
Powerful, beautiful.
I agree it was probably not the original intention of this scene to be taken in this way (Obi-Wan the PTSD sufferer) but it's an interesting application of the Prequel Trilogy. It brings out some of his stoicism, and his quiet dignity. Compare Obi-Wan the wary and cunning elder to Obi-Wan the sarcastic, fraternal, ballsy warrior. The scenes with Obi and Ani in the PT were by far the most worthwhile, for me.
We live with our choices, and carry what we must. Obi-Wan is a good example of that.
I agree it was probably not the original intention of this scene to be taken in this way (Obi-Wan the PTSD sufferer) but it's an interesting application of the Prequel Trilogy. It brings out some of his stoicism, and his quiet dignity. Compare Obi-Wan the wary and cunning elder to Obi-Wan the sarcastic, fraternal, ballsy warrior. The scenes with Obi and Ani in the PT were by far the most worthwhile, for me.
We live with our choices, and carry what we must. Obi-Wan is a good example of that.
Last edit: 10 Jan 2016 10:57 by .
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10 Jan 2016 11:10 #220568
by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic In Context
I think he would have 'felt' something was up, it being confirmed by suddenly being beckoned to Alderaan by the appearance of R2 with Luke in tow, but to what extent and what nature I think he did not yet know. Sending a droid with a message was probably a normal way to reach operatives working under cover, given droids were buzzing around all over the place half the time. I reckon he was just keeping the cover up for which he'd been maintaining for however many years. Once things starting deteriorating with the Jawa's and Owen's I think he had no choice to make the invitation a little more binding, for Lukes protection.
He probably had to put if out of his mind for all those years so that Vader didn't feel him through the Force... and revisiting it, and explaining it to Luke might have elicited an emotional response - like portrayed nicely in that vid.
He probably had to put if out of his mind for all those years so that Vader didn't feel him through the Force... and revisiting it, and explaining it to Luke might have elicited an emotional response - like portrayed nicely in that vid.
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11 Jan 2016 04:22 - 11 Jan 2016 04:46 #220793
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic In Context
found a transcript of an interview with lucas in 81 where he talks about obiwan throwing anikan into a volcano
site: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3313793
transcript here:
LUCASFILM
On May 25, the third film in the original Star Wars trilogy, "Return of the Jedi," will turn 30 years old. To celebrate, HuffPost Entertainment is publishing this exclusive excerpt from J.W. Rinzler's excellent "The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi," due to be released on October 1.
Die-hard "Star Wars" fans should appreciate this transcript of a July 1981 story conference for the franchise's third installment, then titled "Revenge of the Jedi." In attendance were series creator George Lucas, writer Lawrence Kasdan, director Richard Marquand and producer Howard Kazanjian.
To give the others a better idea of who Darth Vader is, George Lucas maps out the character's pre-Dark Side life as Anakin Skywalker. Lucas' words here, in 1981, offer a startlingly accurate preview of what would eventually become the "Star Wars" prequels, released between 1999 and 2005. And yet there are notable exceptions, as well. For instance, Lucas compares The Force to yoga and says anyone can use it, which seems to conflict with what we learned about midi-chlorians in "The Phantom Menace." And he's adamant that Yoda does not fight -- an opinion he clearly revised sometime before 2002's "Attack of the Clones."
REVENGE OF THE JEDI STORY CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT, JULY 13 to JULY 17, 1981—SUMMARY Participants: George Lucas, Richard Marquand, Lawrence Kasdan, and Howard Kazanjian Location: Park Way House Note: Many of the ideas here are conceptual only and should not be considered as canon in the Star Wars saga.
THE STORY OF ANAKIN
Lucas: Anakin Skywalker starting hanging out with the Emperor, who at this point nobody knew was that bad, because he was an elected official.
Kasdan: Was he a Jedi?
Lucas: No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy. He sucked Luke’s father into the dark side.
Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?
Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.
Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?
Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
Marquand: They use it as a technique.
Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.
Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?
Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?
Kasdan: I understand what you’re saying, but I can’t believe it; I am in shock.
Lucas: It’s true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.
Kasdan: You mean he wouldn’t be any good in a fight?
Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn’t.
Kasdan: I accept it, but I don’t like it.
Lucas: Well, anyway, Luke’s father gets subverted by the Emperor. He gets a little weird at home and his wife begins to figure out that things are going wrong and she confides in Ben, who is his mentor. On his missions through the galaxies, Anakin has been going off doing his Jedi thing and a lot of Jedi have been getting killed—and it’s because they turn their back on him and he cuts them down. The president is turning into an Emperor and Luke’s mother suspects that something has happened to her husband. She is pregnant. Anakin gets worse and worse, and finally Ben has to fight him and he throws him down into a volcano and Vader is all beat up.
Now, when he falls into the pit, his other arm goes and his leg and there is hardly anything left of him by the time the Emperor’s troops fish him out of the drink. Then when Ben finds out that Vader has been fished out and is in the hands of the Empire, he is worried about it. He goes back to Vader’s wife and explains that Anakin is the bad guy, the one killing all the Jedi.
When he goes back his wife, Mrs. Skywalker has had the kids, the twins, so she has these two little babies who are six months old or so. So everybody has to go into hiding. The Skywalker line is very strong with the Force, so Ben says, “I think we should protect the kids, because they may be able to help us right the wrong that your husband has created in the universe.” And so Ben takes one and gives him to a couple out there on Tatooine and he gets his little hideout in the hills and he watches him grow. Ben can’t raise Luke himself, because he’s a wanted man. Leia and Luke’s mother go to Alderaan and are taken in by the king there, who is a friend of Ben’s. She dies shortly thereafter and Leia is brought up by her foster parents. She knows that her real mother died.
Kasdan: She does know that?
Lucas: Yes, so we can bring that out when Luke is talking to her; she can say that her mother died when “I was two years old.”
pretty interesting read i thought, especially the parts about yoda and richard nixon
also it shows that the force was originally seen as truly universal - i really felt it was a huge mistake to go the route of "midichlorians"
anyway, i think ben knew what was happening, or he figured it fairly quickly
understand: he didnt see the message right away, and maybe it would have made a difference if he had and maybe not, but as soon as he saw the holo of leia saying "help me obi-wan" with the death star plans inside the droid, he put two and two together
he knew leia was in trouble and he knew vader was on the way
and he knew vader would find luke and his family very quickly
this is why i say he is easy to blame, but what would you have done?
asfar as he could know, vader was (or his scouts were) already on lukes front porch
he could not go back - he especially could not let luke go back
he didnt choose the moment or the context of lukes getting involved - maybe he should have done things differently before that point (again, easy to blame him - in hindsight) but once the events got moving he had to adapt to them as they were
he lost qui gon because he fell, or was knocked down, and couldnt move fast enough to catch up
and in a way, thats how he lost everyone else too,
including anakin and including lukes aunt and uncle
site: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3313793
transcript here:
Warning: Spoiler!
LUCASFILM
On May 25, the third film in the original Star Wars trilogy, "Return of the Jedi," will turn 30 years old. To celebrate, HuffPost Entertainment is publishing this exclusive excerpt from J.W. Rinzler's excellent "The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi," due to be released on October 1.
Die-hard "Star Wars" fans should appreciate this transcript of a July 1981 story conference for the franchise's third installment, then titled "Revenge of the Jedi." In attendance were series creator George Lucas, writer Lawrence Kasdan, director Richard Marquand and producer Howard Kazanjian.
To give the others a better idea of who Darth Vader is, George Lucas maps out the character's pre-Dark Side life as Anakin Skywalker. Lucas' words here, in 1981, offer a startlingly accurate preview of what would eventually become the "Star Wars" prequels, released between 1999 and 2005. And yet there are notable exceptions, as well. For instance, Lucas compares The Force to yoga and says anyone can use it, which seems to conflict with what we learned about midi-chlorians in "The Phantom Menace." And he's adamant that Yoda does not fight -- an opinion he clearly revised sometime before 2002's "Attack of the Clones."
REVENGE OF THE JEDI STORY CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT, JULY 13 to JULY 17, 1981—SUMMARY Participants: George Lucas, Richard Marquand, Lawrence Kasdan, and Howard Kazanjian Location: Park Way House Note: Many of the ideas here are conceptual only and should not be considered as canon in the Star Wars saga.
THE STORY OF ANAKIN
Lucas: Anakin Skywalker starting hanging out with the Emperor, who at this point nobody knew was that bad, because he was an elected official.
Kasdan: Was he a Jedi?
Lucas: No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy. He sucked Luke’s father into the dark side.
Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?
Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.
Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?
Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
Marquand: They use it as a technique.
Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn’t go out and fight anybody.
Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn’t he?
Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?
Kasdan: I understand what you’re saying, but I can’t believe it; I am in shock.
Lucas: It’s true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.
Kasdan: You mean he wouldn’t be any good in a fight?
Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn’t.
Kasdan: I accept it, but I don’t like it.
Lucas: Well, anyway, Luke’s father gets subverted by the Emperor. He gets a little weird at home and his wife begins to figure out that things are going wrong and she confides in Ben, who is his mentor. On his missions through the galaxies, Anakin has been going off doing his Jedi thing and a lot of Jedi have been getting killed—and it’s because they turn their back on him and he cuts them down. The president is turning into an Emperor and Luke’s mother suspects that something has happened to her husband. She is pregnant. Anakin gets worse and worse, and finally Ben has to fight him and he throws him down into a volcano and Vader is all beat up.
Now, when he falls into the pit, his other arm goes and his leg and there is hardly anything left of him by the time the Emperor’s troops fish him out of the drink. Then when Ben finds out that Vader has been fished out and is in the hands of the Empire, he is worried about it. He goes back to Vader’s wife and explains that Anakin is the bad guy, the one killing all the Jedi.
When he goes back his wife, Mrs. Skywalker has had the kids, the twins, so she has these two little babies who are six months old or so. So everybody has to go into hiding. The Skywalker line is very strong with the Force, so Ben says, “I think we should protect the kids, because they may be able to help us right the wrong that your husband has created in the universe.” And so Ben takes one and gives him to a couple out there on Tatooine and he gets his little hideout in the hills and he watches him grow. Ben can’t raise Luke himself, because he’s a wanted man. Leia and Luke’s mother go to Alderaan and are taken in by the king there, who is a friend of Ben’s. She dies shortly thereafter and Leia is brought up by her foster parents. She knows that her real mother died.
Kasdan: She does know that?
Lucas: Yes, so we can bring that out when Luke is talking to her; she can say that her mother died when “I was two years old.”
pretty interesting read i thought, especially the parts about yoda and richard nixon
also it shows that the force was originally seen as truly universal - i really felt it was a huge mistake to go the route of "midichlorians"
anyway, i think ben knew what was happening, or he figured it fairly quickly
understand: he didnt see the message right away, and maybe it would have made a difference if he had and maybe not, but as soon as he saw the holo of leia saying "help me obi-wan" with the death star plans inside the droid, he put two and two together
he knew leia was in trouble and he knew vader was on the way
and he knew vader would find luke and his family very quickly
this is why i say he is easy to blame, but what would you have done?
asfar as he could know, vader was (or his scouts were) already on lukes front porch
he could not go back - he especially could not let luke go back
he didnt choose the moment or the context of lukes getting involved - maybe he should have done things differently before that point (again, easy to blame him - in hindsight) but once the events got moving he had to adapt to them as they were
he lost qui gon because he fell, or was knocked down, and couldnt move fast enough to catch up
and in a way, thats how he lost everyone else too,
including anakin and including lukes aunt and uncle
People are complicated.
Last edit: 11 Jan 2016 04:46 by OB1Shinobi.
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