An Interesting read

Zenchi wrote: First off, the author is a woman, which everyone making mention of seems to have easily overlooked.

Second the context from which she speaks is from a purely fictional point of view has little to no relevance to our path as she was not including the Force community in her article and to try to compare the two (an article based solely on assessing the morale highground on characters within a purely fictional work and comparing it to the dynamics within the Jedi community) is nonsensical and pointless.

It was a rather fun read but once you try to compare the two you suck the fun out of it...

I just read the text, didn't look at the author. And I was not considering the Jedi community in my analysis, but purely the fictional Jedi Order.

The Legacy of the Force books series deals with this subject. It's worth reading the first book, at the very least. The Lady of the Sith, Lumiya, lists off a bunch of Sith that did not seek galactic domination. In fact, many of them were simply focused on their own development, not unlike the Jedi.

But that's the fiction, after all. In real life, we all have a light and dark side, a Jedi and Sith fighting for control over the self.

Almeida wrote: I just read the text, didn't look at the author.

Shouldn't the author be considered when responding to ones work, especially as a Jedi?

And I was not considering the Jedi community in my analysis, but purely the fictional Jedi Order.

I wasn't commenting on you specifically, but you made more than one reference to Jediism (hence a large part of the community)...

The author doesn't consider the interpretations of the Jedi Code, not only ours, but even in the Jedi Path book, they have their "official" interpretation of each tenet.

And to top it all, saying the Jedi is all about suppression of the self is to say Buddhists are about suppressing the self. One couldn't be further from the truth. Controlling your self and not giving way to your animalistic instincts is what the Jedi are all about.

Sounds like a comparison to real Jedi as you employed the use of Buddhists in this comparison, and Buddhism is one of the several philosophies Jediism is based upon...

Streen wrote: But that's the fiction, after all. In real life, we all have a light and dark side, a Jedi and Sith fighting for control over the self.

I must apologize about not being in full agreement with you.
Even considering we all would have a light/dark side being a Jedi/Sith has nothing to do with light/dark but to consider the self as the meaning of life or to refuse it and trusting its non existence.

Of course, that's only my own opinion.

Edan wrote:

Tamas wrote:

Tamas wrote:

Edan wrote: The creed is not from the fiction Tamas, so it's not really relevant to the discussion unfortunately.

As you see, I'm a rookie here, Edan. Where is the creed from?

Before you answer....

The creed is "adopted from the Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi, author unknown, 1915." ... the doctrine says.

Someone (anyone?!) used the term "Jedi" in 1915?!?
Source, please!!!!
I thought it was formed by George Lucas around 1977!

The creed was adapted for the Temple, if you have a look at the original the word Jedi is not included.

It was a straight answer, Edan, thank you!

Since the members of the group call themselves "Jedi", I am curious about the paralellism and discrepancy between your system of belief and the Star Wars mythology... I'm almost sure that it was debated before, so if you could give me a link to that discussion, that would be just fine (I don't wanna be off-topic)... thank you, guys!

i think that anakin murdered a bunch of children and betrayed all of the the people who loved him

he did this as a result of being deceived and manipulated by palpatine

palpatine manipulated anakin into murderring a bunch of children and betraying everyone who loved him so that he (palpatine) could rise to the position of being able to impose his own will upon the entire galaxy, with anakin at his heels as his personal attack dog

while we need to separate the fictional from the real, the attempt to paint the picture that the fictional sith (of the movies at least) were anything other than - well lets say they were not the kinds of people we should want to be in charge of things

and it is as honest and as good for you as palpatine was honest with and good for anakin - that is to say its not honest and it isnt good for you and it doesnt love you

this is a comment on the fictional sith and the fictional story

Zenchi wrote:

Almeida wrote: I just read the text, didn't look at the author.

Shouldn't the author be considered when responding to ones work, especially as a Jedi?

And I was not considering the Jedi community in my analysis, but purely the fictional Jedi Order.

I wasn't commenting on you specifically, but you made more than one reference to Jediism (hence a large part of the community)...

The author doesn't consider the interpretations of the Jedi Code, not only ours, but even in the Jedi Path book, they have their "official" interpretation of each tenet.

And to top it all, saying the Jedi is all about suppression of the self is to say Buddhists are about suppressing the self. One couldn't be further from the truth. Controlling your self and not giving way to your animalistic instincts is what the Jedi are all about.

Sounds like a comparison to real Jedi as you employed the use of Buddhists in this comparison, and Buddhism is one of the several philosophies Jediism is based upon...

I won't quote parts of it, because on the cell phone it's cumbersome. Just two things: First, no, I don't think the author matters, since my argument is based on what she said, not who she is. If you take the author into consideration, you run into risk of becoming ad hominem. And second, the Jedi Order on the movies is obviously based on Buddhism and several other eastern religions. For starts, like in many Tibetan Buddhist temples, one gets into the temple as a kid and lives there without contact with the external world until they are ready to do so. They meditate five times a day and study as much as they can about the order, while also receiving martial training, like Shaolin temples. Some are accepted into the sacerdotal life, others don't. Also, as monks, once one is accepted as a disciple of the temple, there's a specific haircut, specific clothes and so on, with vows and other things. For me, the structure of the Jedi Order is pretty much a Buddhist one, that's why I mentioned it, referring to the fiction alone, even though it could also relate to Jediism.

I don't deny the Jedi within the movies were partially inspired by Buddhism, lol. That's not the arguement here, its the context to which you used it. You did also refer to the Jedi code used by the community when you made the following statement:

The author doesn't consider the interpretations of the Jedi Code, not only ours, but even in the Jedi Path book, they have their "official" interpretation of each tenet.

"Our" code is an integral part of this community. Also, taking notice of the authors identity does not necessarily make you at risk of becoming ad hominem, it shows you bothered to pay attention...

Here is a bit of Fiction written by one of my peers.

Interesting in context to the OP.

Written by Miles

Anakins Reward.

“Is it done?” The Emperor asked in bland distraction.

“It is, Master.” Anakin said, kneeling before his lord.

“Then you have failed.”

Anakin’s heart leapt in his chest and his body flashed with adrenaline. He could feel the pressure of the Force bearing down upon him. “Master! You ordered me to kill the younglings. I did as you commanded!”

The Emperor’s eyes darkened as he looked up. “You have shown that you are willing to sacrifice your love for petty things.”

Anakin stood and flashed with anger. The Force surged with rage within him. “I did this for love!”

“You did it for power!” The word power resonated through the room, and the Force bowed before its lord, leaving Anakin’s spirit empty and hollow, abandoned to the shadows. With the veil removed from his eyes, the Emperor’s words twisted in the heart of his apprentice. “And power you will have. You have earned that much. Those with power can give it to their servants easily enough. But you are now a slave.”

“A slave? To what? To who?” Anakin demanded in an effort to regain his strength.

“To the dark side,” the Emperor replied calmly. “You were given an opportunity to show your mastery of it, but you denied yourself, and in so doing have sacrificed yourself to your desire for power.”

“I denied nothing!”

The Force twisted and turned its gaze upon the apprentice, bearing down like a wrathful god. “Did you love them? Any of them? Those children?”

“I …” he hadn’t given a thought to it until just that moment. He had resolved himself to the task and cast all thoughts of consequence aside.

“Did … you … love … them?”

He remembered the faces, the games that he played with them, the lessons he taught them, the way that their laughter made his heart smile. He remembered the screams and the terror he gave them in the end. His soul collapsed. “Yes … yes I did.”

“Then why did you kill them?”

“Because you ordered it, Master!” he blurted in desperation. “Because it serves our cause. It needed to be done to assure the future!” He was clinging to the justifications he had been telling himself over and over again, his mind grasping desperately for support that wasn’t there.

The Emperor sighed and with it, the Force receded. “Anakin, I had greater hope for you.” There was a long pause as the Emperor gathered his thoughts.

“A Sith wields the dark side like a weapon. You set aside your feelings of love for something else, some ambition of an old man who promises you things you long to hear. The dark side wormed its way into you and you have surrendered to its power. You think that is where a Sith finds his power? A Sith’s power isn’t in the dark side, it is in mastering the dark side. You have become a slave to your own denial. You are now no more useful than a slave to me.”

Anakin stood, trembling, confused, abandoned, unable to understand.

“I will find uses for you, of course,” The Emperor continued. “I will not cast you out to oblivion like you deserve, slayer of children you love. I will use you to strike fear into the hearts of all who hear your name. I will wield you as I wield the dark side, as a tool.” He rose and walked slowly over to the side table and poured himself a drink. There was a long pause as he looked down into the reflections of the brandy in the glass.

“I had wanted a successor, but you do not know when to embrace your own heart and when to deny me. Your surrendered your freedom cheaply.” The visage of his face held like stone. “Disappointing.”

“What can I do, Master?” Anakin’s voice cracked, desperate for approval. He didn’t know whether to be afraid or apologize. Like so many other things, he had no direction without someone else to guide him, ignorant of his own heart.

“Do?” the Emperor took a drink “You can do nothing. Fear is your manacle.” He returned slowly to his thrown. “You will live a life in fear. It will make you strong. It will inspire you and you will learn as its slave how to master its use. But until you can reign over your own fear, you will forever be nothing but a puppet. I will pull your strings.”

“I’m not afraid!” Anakin retorted.

“You are afraid of me … of what I will do … of what would happen if I were to leave you. You fear loss.” He sat down and swirled the liquid in the glass. “I am all you have now. You killed everything else in your blind ambition.”

Anakin’s strength failed him and he fell to his knees. He refused to believe what he was hearing. His mind spun with all that he had done and all that he had in return, clinging to denial to the very end.
The Emperor smiled with compassion, offering a redemptive gift, knowing the youth would not hear it. “Denial has enslaved you, Anakin. Until you slay your bindings, you will never know freedom.”

Anakin wept, not knowing prophesy had unfolded before him … lost in his prison of self.

OB1Shinobi wrote: i think that anakin murdered a bunch of children and betrayed all of the the people who loved him

he did this as a result of being deceived and manipulated by palpatine

palpatine manipulated anakin into murderring a bunch of children and betraying everyone who loved him so that he (palpatine) could rise to the position of being able to impose his own will upon the entire galaxy, with anakin at his heels as his personal attack dog

while we need to separate the fictional from the real, the attempt to paint the picture that the fictional sith (of the movies at least) were anything other than - well lets say they were not the kinds of people we should want to be in charge of things

and it is as honest and as good for you as palpatine was honest with and good for anakin - that is to say its not honest and it isnt good for you and it doesnt love you

this is a comment on the fictional sith and the fictional story

The responsibility for what Anakin did is on Anakin alone.

Sure Palpatine manipulated him.

So did the Jedi, in fact, that was a large part of episode 3, he even states that they are asking him to do things that go expressly against the Jedi code, to which OB-Wan agrees.

Of course with the Jedi, they framed it around it being a "mission".

Still, I would not blame them anymore for what happened than Palpatine.

Anakin wiped out the Tuskin raiders, and there was no Sith , or Jedi at his ear then, merely his anger.

While he could confess to Palpatine, he could not to the Jedi, but ultimately, everything Anakin did ,was Anakins decision.

If we look at it from the fiction, not only did we find out the Death star was built to protect the empire(from the Yuuzhan Vong) but also that economically, the empire flourished.

Lukes son also once asked about the day to day citizens of the empire, as opposed to just rebels and stormtroopers, as there lives pretty much went on like ours do even though there are wars being fought right now.

Luke, had never even considered the possibility of the everyday citizen, so caught up in his zeal.

Still, bottom line, the result of Anakins doings were his alone.

Passing the buck is the easier path than personal responsibility and accountability.