"Only a Sith deals in Absolutes"

Exar Qel Droma wrote: Hi all, are there any ways around combat if an "absolute" is used?

There are probably ways around it if you are not the Sith who made the statement, however the Sith clearly made it to convince themselves, as in the case of this scene, so in that example there probably wasn't.

And even if you were there opponent Jedi or otherwise, it would be very difficult, because it would make you feel like avoiding combat would be morally incorrect.

That said if a Sith used one against a Jedi they might have a better chance at avoiding it, because they would at least understand what the Sith was trying to do, where as someone else probably wouldn't. At the end of the day an Absolute was a form of emotional/psychological manipulation.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Gisteron wrote: The movie has been out for just about a decade now. I don't know if people were confused about it then, but it sure didn't last long because I've never met a person who was genuinely confused over this. It is one thing if you have, say, a Iron Man movie making references to characters typically associated with the Incredible Hulk or the X-Men, because a movie about Iron Man is a window to the Marvel world which is one large interconnected world. That is not true of Star Wars. Spider-Man is as canon to the Marvel universe as the Human Torch, but there is no comparing of even somebody as iconic as Revan to Grand Moff Tarkin.
We thusly expect something different from a Star Wars movie than we would from Captain America. It must be self-sufficient or at least be dependant exclusively on prior or posterior Star Wars movies. It must be enough to have seen them to understand them and the expanded universe must serve only to expand, or, rather, warp that understanding such as to account for said expanded universe and no longer for the movies. No amount of novels, games or comics should be required to understand it and no understanding stemming from those media should be prioritized over one that is spawned directly by the films because ultimately Star Wars remains mainly a movie franchise, whereas Marvel remains a comic book brand.

Of course I can also entertain this alternate view. So to deal in Absolutes would mean to provoke a confrontation where one can be avoided. Did Obi-Wan have to call Darth Vader out on this? Could he not have said "Farewell, Anakin!" and walked away? Remember, he drew his lightsaber first, and even ignited it, before Darth Vader even touched his. By this time he could sense the Dark Side in Vader and Obi-Wan had seen the unconscious Padme, so Vader had nothing to hide. Walking off would not have been a risk, because Obi-Wan was alert enough to react if Vader chose to seize the opportunity. Instead he called Vader by the name of an enemy, giving in to the absolute choice Vader presented him with. Was Obi-Wan doing his utmost to avoid combat? I don't think so. Was Vader using a tactic Jedi never employ? I think this Jedi just did.

So even considering the expanded Lore elaboration, we are still exactly where we were before, only now we are accusing Obi-Wan not only of a purely semantic failure but indeed of also betraying the Jedi ways he lived to uphold.

except of course - he was right; dude had betrayed the galaxy, murdered a bunch of children, embraced the dark side, and was in fact a sith apprentice who was going on to cause more mayhem and because of that could not actually be walked away from


so...

So what?

Seems Luke Skywalker found a different route.

One went with one mindset, Luke went in with another, even willing to sacrifice his life for it,and if you watch episode five, and even six, Yoda and Obi-Wan were still pushing that one mindset, even lying to push it, saying Vader killed his father. This creates a revenge mindset, and how Jedi is that?

The truth, from a certain point of view, and a lie are a lot alike.

so...

Seems there was a lot of carryover in that absolutist thinking.

Which, Vader changed...Interesting to see who was stuck and who was not.

Gisteron wrote: I don't know if people were confused about it then, but it sure didn't last long because I've never met a person who was genuinely confused over this.

You probably don't hang out with the average person. A lot of my friends are not at the top of the intellectual food chain, and they have no idea what Obi-Wan and Anakin were talking about. lol.

to say someone has done wrong is meaningless without a well considered alternative to their actions

im open to ideas about what obi-wan could have done differently

my understanding is that obi wan had made every effort to reason with anakin

that he failed in that may reflect his own shortcoming as a persuader but imo it was not for lack of sincere effort

that he did not see a likely alternative is imo understandable

the story itself suggests there was none

as far as vader being stuck or not stuck,

my interpretation is that vaders whole problem was that he didnt have the courage to live for his own vision

not as anakin and not as vader

he never took full responsibility for himself

so he followed the councils vision and then resented the council when he didnt like the results

then he became vulnerable to palpatines vision and betrayed everything he was supposed to protect

even at the end it could be argued that all he did was accept lukes vision

never was he his own man

he was more stuck than any one else in the story

IMO it wasn't a lesson... so its irrelevant to be seen as one. I think it was a commentary on Vader's decision making process, nothing more nothing less. Remembering their day job was diplomacy and dispute resolution, its a pretty common argument to simplify things into absolute terms to mimic some dichotomy as a means to force division.

Though I have had various thoughts about it over the last few years to explore it for fun as a deeper concept... don't remember any of them at the moment, some were interesting :pinch:

even at the end it could be argued that all he did was accept lukes vision

never was he his own man

he was more stuck than any one else in the story

Lol, he was between 2 choices.

He could let his son die.

Or live.

Regardless of the vision he chose...

He was the one choosing.

A well reasoned argument, does not shift the burden of personal responsibility.

You are here, so, did you simply choose George Lucas's vision?

we havent gotten to that part yet

before i discuss myself in the context of this thread i would like to address your critique of obi wan

you seem to have a definite idea about obi wan and yoda but what you suggest as likely alternatives is still uncertain

thats what i was responding to and your comments to me originated with the ideas in my response - which are contextual ideas (funny that might come up in a thread about absolutes) so i ask that before we move to the next point we clear the original point

and that we do so with the appropriate context in mind

how exactly should obi wan have acted?
what should he have done?

I think obi-wan said that to open the eyes of the betrayer and murderer of a lot of friends.
Knowing what happen and how anakin is well good in fight.
He show no mercy face to a lier of the falled to darkside.

I think I don't understood well the topic :laugh:
Are you telling that a good person got to be sacrified?
Or to have a redeem you got to betray everyone?
Obiwan should not kill anakin?
You think it don't make sad obiwan how anakin turn?
Anakin was a good poor guy and obiwan was blind by emotion?

:sick: I don't understand. Please enlight me with your wisdom fellows.

It is one thing to try and walk away, fully conscious of Vader's imminent attack. It is a whole different story if you give in to Vader's dilemma and choose to be his enemy. It is another yet still whole different story if you fire up your lightsaber after you gave in to the choice. What could Obi-Wan have done differently? Well, we didn't see Anakin's training but given his behaviour throughout Attack Of The Clones and Revenge Of The Sith, clearly, something must have been going wrong throughout it and Obi-Wan was apparently completely oblivious to it right until their meeting on Mustafar. So much for his Jedi senses. He could also have been, oh, I don't know, not deal in Absolutes perhaps, that is not actually call for the fight himself if that's such an evil thing to do.

I'm not defending Vader here. His motives are mostly unknown to me but they shouldn't have been unknown to the man who spent a lifetime by his side and who saw him drift toward the Dark Side. The final seduction through Palpatine is one that can at least be understood to an extent, but I have yet to hear an excuse for Obi-Wan's complete blindness to it and the utter incompetence of the Council which for all intents and purposes might as well have consisted of Grand Master Hindsight, Master Shoulda, Master Coulda and Master Woulda.

Gisteron wrote: It is one thing to try and walk away, fully conscious of Vader's imminent attack. It is a whole different story if you give in to Vader's dilemma and choose to be his enemy. It is another yet still whole different story if you fire up your lightsaber after you gave in to the choice. What could Obi-Wan have done differently? Well, we didn't see Anakin's training but given his behaviour throughout Attack Of The Clones and Revenge Of The Sith, clearly, something must have been going wrong throughout it and Obi-Wan was apparently completely oblivious to it right until their meeting on Mustafar. So much for his Jedi senses. He could also have been, oh, I don't know, not deal in Absolutes perhaps, that is not actually call for the fight himself if that's such an evil thing to do.

I'm not defending Vader here. His motives are mostly unknown to me but they shouldn't have been unknown to the man who spent a lifetime by his side and who saw him drift toward the Dark Side. The final seduction through Palpatine is one that can at least be understood to an extent, but I have yet to hear an excuse for Obi-Wan's complete blindness to it and the utter incompetence of the Council which for all intents and purposes might as well have consisted of Grand Master Hindsight, Master Shoulda, Master Coulda and Master Woulda.

Gisteron you make a good point. I DON'T agree but I do see where you are coming from.