Are humans good?

Adder wrote: Government just writes the music, its up to the public servants to play the damn thing. Sometimes all it takes is one instrument in the orchestra being out of tune to stuff the whole thing for the audience. But if the resultant sound is no good it's probably a blend of both being less then ideal, but lets not forget we all have different tastes in music as well!! Sometimes even that can change depending on ones mood

Uhh I don't think that's what Ariane is talking about. I get the impression is goes much deeper that a few issues of beauracracy.

You live as you live.

The gods (you use uppercase, I have no love for those which are not big "G" in the singular, so I'll use lowercase) certainly do have their agenda, as does God. While God and a great deal of other gods subscribe to curbing "sin" by the definition of that being, not all do. Instead, some seem to say more something along the lines of "your life would be a lot better if you followed these guidelines, but if you're not going to follow these guidelines...whatever?". Some encourage discord, because the war for power has been a thing in human history forever- why wouldn't it be in the spiritual realms?

The only real truth is that we are free to determine who/what we follow or do not follow. If one chooses to believe that following a deity is about ridding themselves of sin, that is certainly one way to look at the situation. But another interpretation is that by following what the religion teaches to the best of our ability, and then repenting when we've fallen hard against those teachings, we are actually benefiting the world around us.

It's all in how you look at it. At the end of the day, you have to recognize that there are some rules which should be followed- like not committing murder (that is to say, in cold-blood, not as it concerns legitimate self-defense or defense of others), if for no other reason than these things keep society in harmony.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote: Government just writes the music, its up to the public servants to play the damn thing. Sometimes all it takes is one instrument in the orchestra being out of tune to stuff the whole thing for the audience. But if the resultant sound is no good it's probably a blend of both being less then ideal, but lets not forget we all have different tastes in music as well!! Sometimes even that can change depending on ones mood

Uhh I don't think that's what Ariane is talking about. I get the impression is goes much deeper that a few issues of beauracracy.

I hope so. The point is its not one closed system acting out upon the community. It is made up of members of the community with various extents of accessibility to the community depending on which level you look at. For example my partner was running a federal agency at one point here in Australia, and she is the most spiritual person I know and more Jedi than I!! So I might have a different perspective on the concept. Anyway, this is why its helpful to communicate with specifics about said problem, otherwise it just loses any capacity to exert traction as a concept and will go nowhere.

Humans are neither good nor bad. It is our actions that make us good or bad. You and only you can definitely what is good and bad for yoirself. We are what we choose to be. Something I might think is bad or wrong, might be something you consider to be right. It really depends on your point of view, and your personal believe. Religion is what you make of it. Good and bad are what you believe.

ghost of the mist wrote: Humans are neither good nor bad. It is our actions that make us good or bad.

These two sentences are contradictory. If humans are neither good nor bad, then nothing we do or don't do will make us good or bad.

Good or bad are nothing but silly labels - what we or our environment may deem to be "good" may be received as very "bad" by other environments. It's impossible to know the Force - the Force is unpredictable. Because of that, the effects of our actions will always be unpredictable too. You can't introduce predictability in a system that is completely unpredictable.

All we can really do is try to think through how we act and speak and try to choose ways that are as beneficial as possible to our surroundings. And refrain from getting frustrated when our environment reacts differently to our actions and speech than what we thought.

Ariane wrote: Everything we have been told of religion is a lie. We say that we like religion and that we worship religion when actually we hate religion and if we understand

A wise observation. Indeed everything we tell each other is a lie, but everything we tell ourselves should be the truth. However, the truth is always greater than the words we use to describe it.

Where you go from there is the mystery.

I must agree and disagree with the OP. I think this thread is a misunderstanding of how energy works.

Many people today do not like and have rejected "religion" based on their understanding of "spirituality". In theory, religion was designed as a system of teaching spirituality and enlightenment using symbolism but the reality is that any system can be hacked and re-purposed. In other words, no matter how it started out it was inevitable that people were going to usurp it for their own ends and start speaking on behalf of God; things that would benefit themselves.

I feel like a lot of the OP is directed at Christianity as a representative of religion in general. In some ways this is fair but not totally. You have to keep in mind that anything that can be changed over time can evolve in the direction that is taken by numerous choices. And so what these religions ALL represent, I think accurately and fairly, is humankind's own desires and insecurities.

Humans desire unconditional love and there's no greater example than that between parent and child. Therefore God becomes a dad. Of course kids want to explore their freedoms but don't want to get in trouble or have our parents angry at us. So... humans created salvation. I believe that originally this was done under the concept of equivalent exchange... "eye for an eye". Of course, once greed gets involved someone else is going to be willing to accept that which you thought to be equivalent to your crimes; check made payable to them. This system made sin harder because you couldn't have your conscience cleared without giving something up and you had to be able to afford that penalty. Christianity simply made sin "free". No cost. Sin as much as you like. Just tip your waiter after.

When the child has no consequences they have a very high probability of being "spoiled". This is why they do not practice what they preach. What they preach is morality based on what they find offensive and don't want other people to do while having their own pet sin(s) that they love to do.

Humans are and were always free. The realization of potential consequences is that creates the opposite illusion. I couldn't rob a bank because my nature prevents it but there's nothing outside of me preventing me from robbing a bank. When people imagined the ultimate consequence was hell it motivated them to avoid it by doing whatever they thought was necessary. You might put a thief on trial but believe that God gave you land because you don't recognize the right of the "heathens" to exist on it. And if they wanted to fight you for it then it was okay to slaughter them if you could because that too had to be God's will and plan.

Humans simply fail to recognize when we are posing as God and marveling at our own faces in the mirror. Today we recognize the signs of narcissism and psyhopathy. But what about people who lived long ago? How many kings and well renowned men suffering from a host of personality disorders? And its not because we think we're free that's the problem. No, most people think they're not free and therefore give their true power away to someone or something else to have the responsibility that they themselves should own.

Religion is like those diet pills they keep sending you until you cancel your subscription. No one is really forcing you to take the pills or even to use the same interpretation and understanding spoon fed by the pastor. Most people just don't want to think for themselves because its easier to be the drones in the colony. At least their not unclear about what to do. They have direction; purpose. And that, I believe, is addictive. Challenge them with logic all you like but if they're addicted to their religion and the idea that they can have eternal life you will never be able to offer something greater. You could say the truth is greater, but that's a matter of opinion. Some people would rather have the blue pill.

So are humans inherently good or evil? Humans are neither. Humans start of selfish but they have another older human with them to guide and show them how they should love and forgive others. Parents often tell this when children need to see it instead. And instead parents are infecting their children with their own hatred and bigotry because they want those qualities to survive and live on. But often these views are shaped in the crucible of pain, fear, and misery. Instead of these things being treated at a young age, the next generation is simply "born in sin, shaped in iniquity". We mimic our environment which is naturally savage.

The Jedi, and other religions, are seeking to be one with a nature that is higher than the morality of our natural environment. Even if humans fail in this search, it is our higher nature which is the seat of our conscience and consciousness, that defines our potential. But just as this higher self defines our potential, our lower self, full of baser instincts, lust and obsession, defines our potential to do evil.

Depends on who you ask. If your asking me, yes.

EDIT: This was in response to the question, not necessarily any of the views of the OP.

I never understood the need for religion to tell us who to be in order to be accepted. If you need a religion to tell you how to be 'good', then you are not inherently good. You should already know that it works against yourself and others to steal, kill, lie, and do any number of other 'sins'. For most very young children it comes natural to be good to others. We don't need to be tainted by religion to tell us who to be good to and who to hate. There should be no hate. All living creatures - human and other - are valid.

I feel that religion is one of the main causes of separating us into groups, into us vs. them, religion vs religion, nation vs nation. It isn't necessary to do this to each other, and yet it is so ingrained in history and cultures that it is second nature and we cannot fathom living without it.