Heaven, Hell, Re-incarnation?

Proteus wrote:

Bareus wrote:

Proteus wrote:

Bareus wrote:

Proteus wrote: Watch the ocean. What are the waves doing?

They.. Float on?

Close... keep at it. Really Observe here.

Hmm.. I kind of understand the symbolism (if you intend it to be symbolism)
Yet i can't seem to find. The right words

Maybe, the waves just float on, almost regardless of Circumstances and they don't worry about what happeneds in a day, a week etc. They just keep floating?

What are the waves part of? Where did they come from?

They are part of the sea, or the ocean
And they are created from the wind

Bareus wrote:

Proteus wrote:

Bareus wrote:

Proteus wrote:

Bareus wrote:

Proteus wrote: Watch the ocean. What are the waves doing?

They.. Float on?

Close... keep at it. Really Observe here.

Hmm.. I kind of understand the symbolism (if you intend it to be symbolism)
Yet i can't seem to find. The right words

Maybe, the waves just float on, almost regardless of Circumstances and they don't worry about what happeneds in a day, a week etc. They just keep floating?

What are the waves part of? Where did they come from?

They are part of the sea, or the ocean
And they are created from the wind

When a wave is done "waving", where does it go?

Proteus wrote:

Bareus wrote:

Proteus wrote:

Bareus wrote:

Proteus wrote:

Bareus wrote:

Proteus wrote: Watch the ocean. What are the waves doing?

They.. Float on?

Close... keep at it. Really Observe here.

Hmm.. I kind of understand the symbolism (if you intend it to be symbolism)
Yet i can't seem to find. The right words

Maybe, the waves just float on, almost regardless of Circumstances and they don't worry about what happeneds in a day, a week etc. They just keep floating?

What are the waves part of? Where did they come from?

They are part of the sea, or the ocean
And they are created from the wind

When a wave is done "waving", where does it go?

Back into the ocean?

Just as we return to this world when we are done "waving"
Ah.. I understand

What do you belive happends after you leave your body /after death?

That's the illusion of self. There's no "you" to leave your body.

Death, Yet the force

Exactly.

Proteus ask a really great yet simple question. The waves form into tides that recedes back and forth, however the waves are made out of individual water drops that eventually evaporate. Through evaporation, the water drops are absorb into the atmosphere and become part of the clouds that pours out those same water drops as rain, which falls back into the ocean...or on the earth where the soil/plants/animals/humans take in the water drops into their system.

Long story short nothing in the universe is created nor destroyed, but always flow in a continuous motion.

I must say i can't agree here
Everything isn't just "this"
There are many things that are yet to be proven, true
But life after death is a large possibility

As i belive in the force, i also belive in life with the force
And to live after i leave this plane, either one with the force or just.. One with the universe

You need not belive me

Uhhh, you dont have to believe me either, but I think the question was, what "I" believe happens when we die.

Whether you agree or not is irrelevant.

What has yet to be proven true is also irrelevant. What we have proof of so far points to the possibility, whether it exists or not to be unlikely.

A better analogy, as opposed to waves and ocean is this.

What happens to ice cubes in a glass of water?

We are ice cubes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWbqYzqrHbs
First of all, lets lighten up. These are beliefs, and they are no more valid than anyone elses, but they are beliefs, not facts, and people need to remember that. I don't care if it is the opinion of everyone else here that we like waves, simply return to the ocean after we die, I don't necessarily disagree. I notice members assuming their right, not entirely describing why they think the way they do, or the process for that matter, or simply winking as if that means their right. We don't have to agree, but lets keep thing's in perspective...

Actually, to be clear, everything I mentioned are facts.

After I die, I will be cremated. This is my wifes wish also.

Our ashes will be placed together.

As it is stated in our will.

Our planet is finite, so is our star.

Sure, there my beliefs, but there are also facts.

Anything else would be mere speculation.

If you're dead, Khaos, how do you know you're being cremated?

As I said, its in my will.

When I had a child, I had a will done.

I dont have to wait for death to know what will be done with my meat suit when I am dead.

Only those without a will, will have to wonder.

You may have missed the point of the question (though I doubt you did, and perhaps are ignoring it). If you're dead, what can you know about the physical world? If your identity is erased or dispersed (like the ice cube in water metaphor you used), what about this world can you be aware of? Can time and space as you know them now continue to exist for you?

I'm not trying to argue here, just bringing up some questions for discussion.

Thank you for the ocean analogy Proteus

When this topic comes up, I like to throw a curve ball and respond with, "Where were you before you were born?"

All I know of death is what I can observe. The animate becomes inanimate, and then it is broken down into its base elements which are distributed throughout the environment. As to what becomes of meta-cognition (which is what we usually think of as "the self") I have no idea because I don't really even know what it is right now haha.

I loved Proteus's analogy because it shows how things work. The same natural Forces that act on the tides also act on everything else. That's why it's said by wise dead Asians that if you understand the nature of one thing fully, you understand the nature of all things. Because all things are moved by the same Force. What's more important to me than what "I" become after I die, is what "I" am right Now.

Streen wrote: You may have missed the point of the question (though I doubt you did, and perhaps are ignoring it). If you're dead, what can you know about the physical world? If your identity is erased or dispersed (like the ice cube in water metaphor you used), what about this world can you be aware of? Can time and space as you know them now continue to exist for you?

I'm not trying to argue here, just bringing up some questions for discussion.

I know I will be cremated, I wont feel myself being cremated, or be aware of it.

Still, this knowing is in the fact that it is bought and paid for ahead of time, while I am alive and aware, and have my identity.

The point still escapes me, as you seemed to have answered your question, but I still dont see what point your trying to make.

I made funeral arrangements. Simple as that.

At the time it happens, no, time and space wont exist for me(unless were speaking strictly of my body as me, then it will.)

I loved Proteus's analogy because it shows how things work. The same natural Forces that act on the tides also act on everything else.

Uhh, it describes how the tides work, sort of, not really. There is a lot more to the tides working than what he went into with his analogy.

Do you know what natural "forces" cause the tides to do what they do?

Khaos wrote: Uhh, it describes how the tides work, sort of, not really. There is a lot more to the tidesworking than what he went into with his analogy.

Do you know what natural "forces" cause the tides to do what they do?

Gravity, inertia, etc. Namely all things are cause/effect and constant change. That's the Force to me. Both the tides and me are both expressions of that, and we both abide by the same laws of conditionality, dependence and the bell curve. Proteus's analogy showed that all things are just like the waves.They rise, stabilize, decline and dissolve. Yet the entire time they were dependent on the ocean and were never separate from it.

Khaos wrote: The point still escapes me, as you seemed to have answered your question, but I still don't see what point your trying to make.

It's alright, I was being vague on purpose, thinking you might get my point without me spelling it out. No harm done though. It's simple really. It comes down to the old Zen koan, "If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around, does it make a sound?" The tree falling in the woods if your death. But if you're not around to witness your own cremation (the sound of it falling) then does it happen at all?

If we're talking about trees in this sense, the technical answer to the question is, "No, it doesn't make a sound". Why? Because the definition of sound includes the existence of an ear in which the vibration will be received. If there is no ear, there is no sound.

So, if there is no You, does your cremation ever happen? Does Khaos' world continue to exist without him? Just a rhetorical question really, since there is no way to know.

Why even go so far, really? I mean, arranged or not, there is no knowing the future in this way anyway, is there? What if you die in, say, a landslide such that your body is more or less beyond retrieval? Or perhaps you drown in the ocean or go down with a plane. You haven't arranged for your corpse being recovered from anything like that, have you? So even with the cremation all aranged and prepared, there is no telling that it is actually going to happen, likely though it may be and reasonable though it is to assume that indeed it will.

On another note, Liwa, your person is governed primarily by electromagnetism and the strong nuclear force, whereas the tides are governed mostly by gravity. And inertia is not a force. Just to blow your mind some further, inertia is actually a quantity of resistence to change, so go figure. Now, that is not to say that the collapse of an ocean wave on the shore is a bad analogy for death. Certainly, it is lacking in many areas, but all analogies are and if we wanted to express all that death entails we wouldn't use one. With death, and specifically what lies beyond, being - to smuggle in a Shakespearean note - "the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveller returns", I suppose we do get to make up unsubstantiated fantasies about how all of that functions, and there is nothing strictly wrong in employing crude analogies to illustrate said fantasies. However, kindly leave them be analogies and don't assert more accuracy than is either present or required. The world doesn't work on metaphors and analogies the way people do. Metaphysics is neither an extension nor an area of physics. Please, don't try and get me started... Ask anyone, they'll tell you I won't stop.
Cheers.

Gisteron wrote: The world doesn't work on metaphors and analogies the way people do. Metaphysics is neither an extension nor an area of physics. Please, don't try and get me started... Ask anyone, they'll tell you I won't stop.
Cheers.

Are you then admitting to possessing little to no self control?

Gisteron wrote: The world doesn't work on metaphors and analogies the way people do. Metaphysics is neither an extension nor an area of physics. Please, don't try and get me started... Ask anyone, they'll tell you I won't stop.
Cheers.

The world does not work on metaphors no, neither do we

Through using metaphors we can make others understand more easy, and maybe improve their way of thinking