1st World Comfort versus 3rd World Suffering

ren wrote:

Yet with all that money you could have started a fisheries company that could run on its own without need for further investment. Now, not only there is no fish at the market, but on top of that the only fisherman in town left a few years ago, emigrated somewhere for a better pay.

i know nothing about fishing. the company would fail with that point alone, notwithstanding that bolivia is landlocked, and the 'river' in santa cruz i could walk across in the non rainy season.

This has to be the *Yuckiest* argument I've ever heard. If you'd tried you'd know why I'm saying this.

please explain why this is a *Yucky* argument.

Guess what, in poor countries you do not need a lot of money to start a business. hungry pople are willing to work and don't ask about pension contributions... And if you're not greedy the authorities won't take over your stuff.

i would be almost 100% certain that my stuff would be nationalized, and i would pay outrageous bribes beforehand trying to forestall the inevitable. i dont play nice with others when they are threatening me, which would of course precipitate that. and im american. automatic hate there.

I think you'll find most people in the world either own or are employed by a small business. It was my understanding bolivia is in need of private investors, and lots of private investors are just like one big one.

i already found this. i started thornton consulting, llc in 2006 with an eye to defense contracting, which is very lucrative and i was already doing as an army contractor. this still may happen, as i still have a secret clearance and have been using this to take classes through defense acquistions university (dau), specifically designed for small businesses that want to work with the federal government in that field. the problem is that i have $0 to expand the business, or pay myself to do nothing but write contract bids all day. it is going slower than anticipated, but it is going. i also got sidetracked using the company to set up PACs during election season here and personally registering as a lobbyist, both state and federal. i then used that to lobby for groups i was already a part of, such as several different mental health groups, animal rights, wounded warrior, the aforementioned immigrant rights and natural conservatism. i find this much more spiritually rewarding, tho not fiscally, than building war machines.

i know nothing about fishing. the company would fail with that point alone, notwithstanding that bolivia is landlocked, and the 'river' in santa cruz i could walk across in the non rainy season.

This was merely a reference to "give a man a fish".

please explain why this is a *Yucky* argument.

Just because you can't do it here doesn't mean you can't do it there.

i would be almost 100% certain that my stuff would be nationalized, and i would pay outrageous bribes beforehand trying to forestall the inevitable. i dont play nice with others when they are threatening me, which would of course precipitate that. and im american. automatic hate there.

So instead you choose to lose before you even try. As to the few people who would make a difference, you'd have them emmigrate. wonderful.

i already found this. i started thornton consulting, llc in 2006 with an eye to defense contracting, which is very lucrative and i was already doing as an army contractor. this still may happen, as i still have a secret clearance and have been using this to take classes through defense acquistions university (dau), specifically designed for small businesses that want to work with the federal government in that field. the problem is that i have $0 to expand the business, or pay myself to do nothing but write contract bids all day. it is going slower than anticipated, but it is going. i also got sidetracked using the company to set up PACs during election season here and personally registering as a lobbyist, both state and federal. i then used that to lobby for groups i was already a part of, such as several different mental health groups, animal rights, wounded warrior, the aforementioned immigrant rights and natural conservatism. i find this much more spiritually rewarding, tho not fiscally, than building war machines.

I find it useless. We're talking about 1st world comfort vs 3rd world suffering, you proudly mentioned your bolivian roots. Yet all you did is send some money to family members (I mean, really? who hasn't done that, even rich guys do it), supported local charities (and I'm sure alabama isn't the greatest place in the world, but still qualifies as "1st world comfort")...
And, this may be personal bias, but private military contractors and lobby groups are probably the two things i despise the most. I am sure you can find other things to do. Things that would actually help people that need it. easy thing to do would be ask your family what is they need but can't get, ship it to them, hire them to sell it to others. And depending on weight/volume/quantities sometimes air freight is better than shipping containers(which can be a problem for landlocked countries).

Anyway. I hope you don't take this too personally but it's easy for loudmouths to say "oh you can't say this" and "this is wrong" yada yada when they haven't even risked their money on it, and money, is the easiest thing a man can risk.

ren wrote:

please explain why this is a *Yucky* argument. Just because you can't do it here doesn't mean you can't do it there.

i have 3 lawyers and 1 judge in santa cruz on that side of the family. im pretty sure i cant do it there. i have already looked into that.

So instead you choose to lose before you even try. As to the few people who would make a difference, you'd have them emmigrate. wonderful.

i dont follow your logic. i havent lost anything. i choose my battles wisely. there is only so much $, time and me to go around.

I find it useless. We're talking about 1st world comfort vs 3rd world suffering, you proudly mentioned your bolivian roots. Yet all you did is send some money to family members (I mean, really? who hasn't done that, even rich guys do it), supported local charities (and I'm sure alabama isn't the greatest place in the world, but still qualifies as "1st world comfort")...And, this may be personal bias, but private military contractors and lobby groups are probably the two things i despise the most. I am sure you can find other things to do. Things that would actually help people that need it. easy thing to do would be ask your family what is they need but can't get, ship it to them, hire them to sell it to others. And depending on weight/volume/quantities sometimes air freight is better than shipping containers(which can be a problem for landlocked countries).

master ren, i have only scratched the surface of what all i do. i am purposefully trying to limit the conversation so that i dont have to write an autobiography. as to your obvious bias, do you know any military contractors and or lobbyists? i mean, actually know? sat down, had a beer, that sort of thing. of course there are those who give the rest bad names. but i have rarely personally met those over several years of contracting and the short time i have been lobbying. and i entered the lobbying with the counterintuitive stance that its better to have guys like me doing that work than the next shyster lawyer only in it for a buck.

i leave the betterment of bolivia to those best able to handle it: bolivians. my cousins and i talk daily. there are a lot of them. we all have different strategies and viewpoints as to how this can be achieved. but they are most effective there, and i am most effective here.

Anyway. I hope you don't take this too personally but it's easy for loudmouths to say "oh you can't say this" and "this is wrong" yada yada when they haven't even risked their money on it, and money, is the easiest thing a man can risk.

true. but you also may have noticed the current political climate in the US is 'he who yells loudest, wins'. or 'the squeeky wheel gets the grease'. there is no civil discourse here. its what has allowed guys like limbaugh and hannity to have such long, lucrative careers as they have.

next, i already may have mentioned that i dont have any extra money. $600 a month in child support effectively removes any extra i might accumulate.

and as to the federal level lobbying, my rationale is that i can best help 3rd world countries by helping to insure that the US military doesnt have to level any more of them. this only creates more enemies.

'Wow.' James commented, blinking at the screen in rapt fascination, 'Lookit all these comments by Ren-senpai and Desolous-senpai.'

'I know.' Kendalina agreed, casually lighting up a death stick, 'They should quit flirting and just kiss, already.'

This earned her several odd looks from her fellow characters.

"They're not flirting, Kendalina. They're fighting. And getting completely off track from the original topic while they do."

James turned back to the screen, now frowning.

'I dunno... they're still talking about the... um... well, it's still keeping in the spirit of... uh...' He floundered. Jack shook her head, then reluctantly looked down at the bag of fast food she'd gotten. Undoubtedly adding to the waste and consumerism of the culture she was in.

"They are shutting other members out of the topic, though. Look..." She pressed her finger against the screen, "The last five comments are all them, and there are at least nine other comments just continuing on their discussion, back and forth without keeping it open and on tack."

'So, in other words, they should get a room.' Kendalina asked, deliberately wording it similar to her crack from earlier. jack rolled her eyes.

"Kendalina, you're not helping."

lol...i like your method of delivery. if you knew me, you would know that i am never fighting unless i am paid to do so. i have a very acerbic, sarcastic sense of humor that doesnt exactly translate to the written word.

but by all means, lets return to the topic at hand. the title was 1st world comfort vs 3rd world suffering. everyone else not me or ren, go.

You can't blame third world problems entirely on first world nations, although it is true that some companies (eg. Union Carbide or Nestle) exploit the peoples of third world countries terribly.

The main reason that third world countries are in such a bad state is purely because they are incredibly corrupt and run by self-interested scumbags. Look at Russia, a country which could probably be the most affluent in the world, its run by a man who has hidden assets of up to $40 billion, but he declares his annual wage as $80 000. Look at Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe is a great example of someone who has totally ruined his country through greed for power and wealth, only to blame it on imperialists such as the UK or USA, his wife frequently spent millions on shopping trips in Europe before travel sanctions were enforced. Look at North Korea, look at Zuma in South Africa (Who claims that to prevent aids, you should have a shower after sex) who riles up support through anti-white policy.

The list could go on. In the EU at the moment, the countries that are suffering are the ones that are the most corrupt with Italy and Greece probably being the best examples. No one pays any tax in those countries, an italian friend of mine had his bathroom redone and the builders refused to take a check, only cash. You go to any restaurant and they will be pissed off with you for paying by card. The average, declared wage, of a dentist in Italy is someting like 10 000 euros, that's a joke. My dad once knew a guy (and this is 30 - 40 years ago) whose father was a tax collector / inspector in Greece and he had three villas in different parts of the country, mighty suspect for a civil service job.

In any country, the more corrupt it is the worse things will become. How can Russia expect to grow if it is taking $240 billion of bribes every year? How can the people in Italy be surprised at their predicament if none of them pay taxes? Generally speaking a country needs foreign investment if it is to grow but as most third world countries are corrupt or volatile, it doesn't make for a good investment and it is hard for any sort of growth (eg. Brazil at the moment is on the brink of becoming '1st world' but because it is corrupt it is struggling to gain any foreign investment)

Ideally I would like to see a minimalised government that leaves people alone and steps in only when its needed. A country that creates a vast bureaucracy only tangles itself up in a giant web that prevents any sort of movement for its people. If you leave people alone, and let them get on with it, they will be more happy and there will be economic growth, probably the best example of this would be post WWII Japan, if you were born in 1935 you would have seen your country go from total destruction to an economic world power and a country at the height of technology.

Another point I would make is that a lot of third world countries have had to develop very quickly. 150 years ago a lot of Africa was still tribal, rather than developing technology etc. gradually and therefore being accustomed and not shocked by it, they've had to adapt extremely quickly which is quite hard to do, imagine being given the bible and told to read the whole thing, front to back, in an hour it would be very difficult!

To be honest I think christianity has a lot to do with their problems. (in africa anyways) especially those pesky american evangelists.

I agree with a lot of what mace said here. (The USA did however help japan out a lot post WWII in the rebuild process)

I lived in brazil for two years from 97-99. I saw first hand what 3rd world is. In fact I lived it. Going from a "spoiled" American, but by no means were my parents well off, to living without AC and not having a car or even a bike. Living mostly on nothing more than beans and rice. Needless to say it was a humbling experience. There are a few things that stood out to me and still do stand out to me today.

1- Waste is waste just as humans are human. Brazil was a very dirty place. And humans do cause their own suffering regardless of "wealth" or status. 1st or 3rd doesn't matter.

2- Corruption and greed as well as envy is not just a 3rd nor 1st world problem. It is a human condition as well. There is no monopoly in any society.

3- They enjoyed gadgets just as much as we do. I've seen families living in nothing more than a particle board 2 room house but they had a better stereo system then I've ever had!

4- Without some of those "Christian evangelist", many people would have been a lot worse off and many would die from starvation.

These I understand are just some of many things that could be listed. I really could go on and on. But I feel that what we ALL need to solve our problems comes down to this. Compassion, freedom(limited government intervention) and moral conduct aka love thy neighbor and such.

Then again.. What do I know

One thing to remember in regards to '1st World Comfort versus 3rd World Suffering' is that if our roles were switched and the USA was one of the poorest nations on earth and Africa the richest, then things would still be exactly the same...

There is nothing intrinsically special about being in a 1st world country that makes you any different to someone in the 3rd world

We are all human

For example we are no more capable intellectually than a cave man... we simply have more knowledge

We are no better humans than they... we simply have more stuff

If they were in our position they would do exactly the same

Of course this doesn't amount to an excuse. But it is something to remember

I'm not making so much of a point as I am an observation

They put ethanol in their cars in brazil, and seem to care a lot about global warming.

Without some of those "Christian evangelist", many people would have been a lot worse off and many would die from starvation.

Maybe not in south america, but in africa it is. That and the muslims on the east cost. The evangelists really twist people's minds make them no better than peasant witch hunters from the middle ages. And they really cash in on the diseases which they help spread.