When a minor visits the forum

I don't think this system has failed at all, and I think you do a good job Roz. If anything, I just wanted to bring forward the importance of why the rules are the way they are right now and should remain that way. I'm concerned about what might happen if we just start removing current rules, because I think the rules as they are in place are good.

No, we can't protect the kids everywhere on the internet, but that's no reason for us to not at least extend that protection to them here. I say that from having been raised by a cop; I say that from having worked in a Cyber division while I was active duty for 6 years. What we have now is a good, solid, working system, and I really do worry about what might happen if we decide to start removing safeguards, purely because of the philosophy of "It's the internet; we can't protect them from everything."

I can see the argument for allowing kids to say they're kids (we can direct them in the right direction), and I can see the argument for not allowing kids to say they're kids (it draws undue attention to them). Maybe that needs discussing, maybe it doesn't.

But no, Roz. You haven't failed. You do an amazing job with the kids :laugh:

Would it be possible to maybe have a special "Youth Member" rank? That way, the forum at large knows that the member is a minor and can keep an eye out for unsafe behaviour and can temper their own behaviour accordingly.

Leah Starspectre wrote: Would it be possible to maybe have a special "Youth Member" rank? That way, the forum at large knows that the member is a minor and can keep an eye out for unsafe behaviour and can temper their own behaviour accordingly.

I would think something like this would just make an easier target for the creeps that search out youth members to begin with. Pedo's aren't going to follow forum rules concerning interactions with minors, much less common law.

I think the point made about how this is a church and that this forum calls for a touch of decorum is a good one. If behavior has to be changed for a minor, then that behavior simply has to be changed, whether or not a minor is present.

I joined this forum 8+ years ago when I was a kid, things turned out fine.

Just be respectful and be mindful of the fact that this is the internet and you don't really know who you're speaking with a lot of the time.

Even if some minors don't identify themselves, I think decorum and common sense when makings posts - or responding to them - is generally sufficient for protecting minors.

Now let's entertain the idea that there may indeed be predatory characters here...isn't a badge identifying posters as minors tantamount to advertising that fact?

Minor or not, if you're being harassed, report it. If you see it happening to someone else, report it.

Propriety aside, as a registered non-profit, don't we have some kind of legal obligation to keep a close eye on minors, though?

Aren't we already doing something about it? Members under 18 have to register and give parental consent...I had to. We have moderators and Youth Officers, a dedicated Youth Forum. If dedicated Youth Officers are informed of their age and keeping an eye on things, which they are, then aren't we doing enough?

If someone lies about their age or their intentions, we can't do much to counter that.

That's not something I could answer specifically, but I don't think painting a target on them via a special membership badge is a good idea either. I've personally never seen the current rules as anything more than a "We're keeping an eye out for you"... certainly not as an exclusionary method, definitely not to draw attention to them.

The system as it is is designed to keep a good idea on the kids, and I think it works the way it's supposed to. At best I would say we should review whether or not it's kosher for them to announce that their a minor (not their age, but just "I'm a minor"), because there are valid arguments either way. I've seen cases where it's not so much of a good idea (my previous mention of societally engrained adult biases against children), but cases where it's been a brilliant idea (new adult members talking in ways that could be potentially extremely bad with minor members, but only because they didn't realize the minor was in fact a minor).

I'm not entirely certain anything even needs to be changed (aside, perhaps, making the Youth FAQ a bit more visible again...).

I was under the impression from the existence of this thread that something wasn't enough, or rules weren't being properly followed.

The protection of minors is the responsibility of a whole community, not just a dedicated few. The Youth Officer's specialize in it, and moderate/support the dedicated area for minors, but minors participate in the regular forum, too. Wouldn't it be all of our business to do what we can to ensure it's as safe as possible (within reason, of course).

Last question first: Yes of course. And I think that's what we do.

First question last: I think the thread started out as a reminder of "please make sure you're keeping an eye out for the kids". It's definitely turned into a discussion on the rules though! lmao

As has been otherwise stated in the thread, and could due use to be stated again.

We already have an existing set of rules and procedures in place to protect minors against possible transgression by members of the forum who may not have their best interest in mind, or be otherwise predatory.

If the minors who come here choose not to follow those rules and policies, even after being informed of them and instructed on what rights and permissions they have here, there is little more we can do for them. The only other option (I can see) is to forbid minors presence on TOTJO entirely, in which case there will STILL be minors who intentionally lie about their age in order to register an account and participate here.

Kids intentionally do things wrong, because they want something and god forbid if there are rules in place to prevent them from getting it. That's why through the process of growing up, they are disciplined in order to cultivate a sense of maturity and responsibility.

Just as is the case with society in general. We have laws that prohibit theft, murder, bribery, trespassing, immoral acts, among other unsavory elements of the human condition. Despite these laws being clearly established and widely known by the general population, there are still and will always be a percentage of the population who intentionally breaks these laws in the pursuit of personal gain.

So unless we plan on forming a TOTJO branded justice force, I don't see what more we can do, or better yet, should have to do to protect minors who purposely ignore the existing rules of the forum.

I think this thread exists because TOTJO policy prohibits minors from announcing their age/status as minors in the forum and that rule has been repeatedly violated.

As already discussed, yes, it is indeed everyone's duty to be decent and behave in a manner consistent with the fact that this is a Church.

Youth Officers are, so far as I know, the Temple's way of honoring its obligations to the minors, not a get-out-of-jail free card to let other members off the hook with respect to, like, vigilance.

Ok, wait, so we all agree then, that the rules are there and we should follow them?

What on earth are we arguing about?

Because not EVERYONE agrees with some small parts of the rules

I think that some parts of the rules are more to help cover TOTJO legally. They do serve the purpose of protecting the youth members, but only so much. To me, it's like if you're playing Pokemon Go (that's right, I still do) and you're in a car. The message that pops up asking you to click "I'm a Passenger" in no way actually stops a person from driving and playing (which is a stupid thing to do) but it legally absolves the game makers. Or a line from an episode of House "Someday 17 year olds are going to get smart enough to click 'Yes I am 18.'"

We can only do so much to stop things from happening, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what we can.

I don't know what's in the youth FAQ but a section on internet safety might not be bad. Heck, put it in the regular FAQ also. I think some "grown up" people could use a reminder.

There was a thread a while back about a website that was a collection of cat pictures but the site makers laid them out on a map of exactly where they were taken. They accessed the photos legally and got all the location data legally and were able to pin point the exact location. The whole purpose was to show people just how much information a person can legally get and what they can do with it. They used cat pictures to help make it not quite so scary.

Leah Starspectre wrote: Ok, wait, so we all agree then, that the rules are there and we should follow them?

lol

+ :evil: =

Goken wrote: I think that some parts of the rules are more to help cover TOTJO legally. They do serve the purpose of protecting the youth members, but only so much. To me, it's like if you're playing Pokemon Go (that's right, I still do) and you're in a car. The message that pops up asking you to click "I'm a Passenger" in no way actually stops a person from driving and playing (which is a stupid thing to do) but it legally absolves the game makers. Or a line from an episode of House "Someday 17 year olds are going to get smart enough to click 'Yes I am 18.'"

We can only do so much to stop things from happening, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what we can.

I don't know what's in the youth FAQ but a section on internet safety might not be bad. Heck, put it in the regular FAQ also. I think some "grown up" people could use a reminder.

There was a thread a while back about a website that was a collection of cat pictures but the site makers laid them out on a map of exactly where they were taken. They accessed the photos legally and got all the location data legally and were able to pin point the exact location. The whole purpose was to show people just how much information a person can legally get and what they can do with it. They used cat pictures to help make it not quite so scary.

The last time I looked there is a section on internet safety. I can't see it now, but when I was a youth officer I used to bang on about being safe in the youth forum often. If a minor continually flouted the rules and ignored our requests they would probably get themselves banned (under 13s are banned automatically). As a knight I kicked minors from chat more than once for ignoring me on talking about their 'minor-ness'. I'm pretty sure that cat pictures thread was mine... I know now which of my neighbours owns which cats!

In case anyone wondered, all Youth Officers are subject to criminal background checks and while I was a youth officer (don't know if it happens now) I used to email the parents of all 13 and 14 year olds to ensure they knew their kids were on the forum. I never got a response, but that is another subject entirely.

We do an awful lot for minors here, a hell of a lot more than I have seen other forums do. We should be proud of the effort we put in.

The reason I posted this thread is because not all members read the youth faq, or have read it recently, and it pays to be aware that our attempts to help may unintentionally confirm or highlight that someone is a minor, something we are actively trying to avoid.