Apology

OB1Shinobi wrote...

fair warning; i offend some people pretty regularly, and you might not be making any friends to appear to be "on my side" lol

I'm suddenly having the most terrible sense of deja vu...

well maybe i can return the favor here lol

Senan wrote:

JamesSand wrote: As for Sne1a - No one wants to offend you on a personal level as far as I can understand - You can have whatever name, gender identity, or anything else you want - but to demand everyone else be aware of and make amendments to their behaviour to suit is as oppressive as them dictating your behaviour and preferences to you.


All this can be summed up in one of my Father's essential life lessons "Drive like everyone on the road is trying to kill you"

I certainly do not intend to create any animosity with this, but I think it is fair to point out that we are not "on the road". We are in a Temple. Being so, there is an expectation of certain behavior. One such expectation of a Jedi is to treat others with here, whether we agree with them or not.

Is there a need to have a tough skin sometimes? Yes.

9. Jedi have integrity. We are authentic to what we believe and are open, honest and true to our purpose and our minds. We remove all masks to reveal ourselves as courageous and noble of heart. We do not hide from fear of damage to our image because we know that our image cannot be blemished from the words and actions of others.

However...

13. Jedi cultivate empathy. We try to view things from another’s perspective making us sensitive listeners. We provide the confidence people need when talking through their difficulties and we share our learning with those who would benefit. We do this to help create a more harmonious society.

Addressing someone by the pronoun they have respectfully requested we use for them should not be seen as a demand, but rather an opportunity to treat someone with the respect we all should hope to receive while we are here. This is a Temple, after all.

and yet again i agree with everything youve said, but when i read JamesSand's post i had the impression he was saying its not reasonable to expect everyone to just know your gender - if you want to be recognized as a female then its your responsibility to present yourself as a female, and if you have a male face as your avatar pic, be ready for people to refer to you as a male, at least until youve had the conversation

thats how i took it anyway

fair warning; i offend some people pretty regularly, and you might not be making any friends to appear to be "on my side" lol

I'm not here to take sides, I am here to learn, and if possible teach as well.

If there are those here who will be unhappy with me because I do or don't disagree with other members strictly on principle, I doubt I'll lose sleep over it - However they are more than welcome to raise their grievances with me.

Silas Mercury wrote: Ha, yeah, OB1, Jestor groups you, me, Gisteron, Ryder and Khaos as 'Rebels' lol !!

Careful, thats not what I said...

Sorry for the derail...

Please start a new thread or PM me if this gets too off track, lol... :lol:

Jestor wrote:

Silas Mercury wrote: Ha, yeah, OB1, Jestor groups you, me, Gisteron, Ryder and Khaos as 'Rebels' lol !!

Careful, thats not what I said...

Sorry for the derail...

Please start a new thread or PM me if this gets too off track, lol... :lol:

Warning: Spoiler!

Repeating what someone said, and naming them, is a good way to have fewer discussions, especially if, in this case, someone (Gisteron lets say) took offence, and wanted to get defensive about it...

My words were:

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Challenging someone is not a problem here at TOTJO, it is HOW the challenging is done... I have received many complaints about you Silas, and the manner in which you are still so 'black and white' in your thinking, and the fact that you speak, uh, without fully thinking through the ramifications of your words,

Murasaki, the last person removed, and the "diver', crap, I cannot remember his name, thought that this was the 'wild west' and they could speak as they wanted, because it is the internet...

There have been many, Zenchi is another... Hannigan is another... Trisskar, her hubby Mindas, all listed so far as bumped heads with me... Elizabeth, Wescli, Brenna, Edan, Cabur, Alex Orion, everyone here has affected my thinking, and I really, really enjoy it... But, it must be done with respect... I treat you with respect, I expect the same consideration... I dont lump you all together, in a group, except to say 'people I like', I called no one, anything...

You "lumpin" me in with Hannigan now?? Think you hurt my feels...

Zenchi wrote: You "lumpin" me in with Hannigan now?? Think you hurt my feels...

lol, yes, but in my 'favorite people' lumping...

Senan wrote:

JamesSand wrote: As for Sne1a - No one wants to offend you on a personal level as far as I can understand - You can have whatever name, gender identity, or anything else you want - but to demand everyone else be aware of and make amendments to their behaviour to suit is as oppressive as them dictating your behaviour and preferences to you.


All this can be summed up in one of my Father's essential life lessons "Drive like everyone on the road is trying to kill you"

I certainly do not intend to create any animosity with this, but I think it is fair to point out that we are not "on the road". We are in a Temple. Being so, there is an expectation of certain behavior. One such expectation of a Jedi is to treat others with here, whether we agree with them or not.

When that request is reasonably produced, yes. However, in instances where that request seems more like vocal outrage that someone didn't do a 15-page background check on the individual in question first before daring to address them with pronouns at all, it gets to be a bit more than off-putting.

I don't know of anybody that profile creeps everyone that talks to them, and until we know for a fact what pronoun someone prefers (usually by them, y'know, explicitly telling us), it's impossible to guarantee you've gotten it right. Jedi we may be, but not one of us is a mind-reader.

Agreed, Steamboat. I don't think anybody was intentionally trying to be rude to Sne1a, so there should be no reason to get defensive or be offended. Likewise, the request to be referred to using a certain pronoun should be just that, a request. Demanding it without first making the request is unreasonable. Regardless, she took offense.

I guess I was just trying to point out that if we unintentionally upset someone, I hope we can make the corrections that we can and move forward without having to place blame or justify why the error happened in the first place. Although, I guess we need to know why it happened in order to prevent it happening again.

I pretty much just convinced myself that I have no idea what I'm really trying to get across here

Senan wrote:
I pretty much just convinced myself that I have no idea what I'm really trying to get across here

I know the feeling :laugh:

We do sort of over think things here alot.