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Who is responsible for the Iraq War ?? Hussein, Bush, Blair or bin Laden ??

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06 Jul 2016 19:48 #247472 by Leah Starspectre

ren wrote:

Miss_Leah wrote: Does it even matter who began it? A more pressing question is "Who will be responsible for ending it?"


The ones who started it? That's usually how responsibility is established. He who causes it deals with it.


The ones who started it are probably don't have the cojones to own up and take responsibility. Or the humility. Or intelligence.

So it's up to those who know better to take the reins and solve the conflicts that remain.

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06 Jul 2016 20:09 #247473 by

Tellahane wrote: My point I was trying to make was not the view of a soldier in defense of the country, but another who chooses to attack it. The perspective that news and other outlets would try to say is that we moved into iraq to prevent an attack or prevent hostilities and so on, but I'm sure there are people in iraq who believe we did to them what other terrorist organizations or countries have done to the united states in years passed.


I can understand this point of view, particularly when applying the question of responsibility to the second invasion of Iraq, but the first Gulf War was in direct response to Iraq illegally invading the sovereign nation of Kuwait. The U.S. certainly had other economic and political interests, but the defense of that nation against outside aggression from Iraq was a legitimate motivation. The original operation was called "Desert Shield" and was meant to defend Saudi Arabia and Israel from any further advances by Iraqi forces. It turned to "Desert Storm" when it was decided by a coalition of nations that Kuwait should be liberated by force.

As Jedi, we speak of defending those who cannot defend themselves, and despite my disagreement with the U.S. role of "World Police", I think the use of force to defend Kuwait was justified. Now, the second time when we decided to play hide-n-seek with Saddam and the WMDs... that one is a bit tougher to justify. I'd have to agree with you that the U.S and allies were on the offensive, but I still hesitate to put the responsibility for that on the boots on the ground. If our soldiers questioned the motive of every order they received, they would be ignoring other virtues we like to promote here in our Temple, those of faith, courage, loyalty and integrity.

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06 Jul 2016 22:18 #247483 by OB1Shinobi
http://gulfnews.com/opinion/thinkers/saddam-states-reasons-for-kuwait-invasion-1.502105

Warning: Spoiler!

People are complicated.
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06 Jul 2016 22:43 - 06 Jul 2016 22:57 #247485 by Adder
There were other factors at play IMO...
  1. Iran and Syria were in the market for nuclear material at the time (and so was Saddam if he could have gotten away with it) and of course,
  2. OBL, AQ and 9/11 together with resultant 'Western' operations in Afghanistan had motivated an Islamic fundamentalist grass roots resurgence in militancy throughout the Mid East against the 'West'.

So I think the major players saw those two things, alongside with a few others, and the 'West' considered this as a serious recipe for a nasty cocktail. The variables floating around were starting to became a manifest risk for high casualty events, and in ongoing terms Afghanistan was only fueling that potential maelstrom. I think the 'West' knew it needed to shift the centre of gravity of that emerging threats focus away from CONUS and Europe, and considered that Afghanistan was too far away to have the required effect. So IMO, they had 2 options;
  1. do something to present a hard target in proximity to the emerging new threat
  2. do nothing and wait for another hit at a soft target.

I think the entire 2005 Iraq Invasion was option 1. The military was trained and equipped to place itself right in the middle, defend itself and allow those elements to coalesce around them in one place in such a way that they could better deal with them. It was either going to go one of two ways, the threat would not manifest and the US would work to rebuild a democratic self governing Iraq and leave having freed the Iraqi's from the despot Saddam, or the threat was real and the fight would occur in Iraq instead of Europe, Israel or elsewhere at some future unknown time.

Mostly because with the benefit of hindsight the rest of us can actually see that this is what was actually happening, and indeed what was happened, because as soon as the 'West' effortlessly moved into Iraq the problems only began when the 'foreign fighters' from neighboring countries flooded in to take up arms against this 'West'. Syria and Iran actually did get there hands on nuclear material and the conflict from the US presence in Iraq was driven by those Islamic fundamentalist 'foreign fighters' flooding into Iraq to attack the US forces.

The conflating elements which made things worse were;
  1. Iraqi's initially sided with the 'foreign fighters', until they realized they were worse. At which point the Iraqi clans switched to support the US and the whole thing wound down - that was the turning point in Iraq.
  2. the ongoing near 1400 year old Sunni-Shia conflict. Without the brutal dictator police state to keep the peace on the streets, this civil war served as the new foundation for Islamic militancy to take root again at the local level once the US left.

That is how I see the decision making process regarding this conflict, and I consider the publicly stated reasons for the Iraqi WMD threat back in the day to be a partial truth disguised to protect the actual strategy, in effect a type of deception operation through the media, not quite propaganda but in the same vein. You don't tell the enemy your strategy, the reasons and intended result simply because they will do the opposite.

But I have been told there was enough ordnance dropped on Iraqi underground bunkers that any actual WMD would be buried under so much concrete that they'd never find it even if it was there, so who knows
:blink:

So in my mind, the only reason the US went into Iraq was because of 9/11 and the impact it was thought to potentially have on the potential for militant fundamentalism in the Mid East. I mean if a dozen guys with box cutters can do so much damage... now of course, the Islamic fundamentalists and AQ's narrative was the US wanted the Oil and to occupy the Mid East so the 'West' made it clear from the outset that they were not going to stay in Iraq. They even invited both OBL and Saddam to surrender themselves to avoid any military invasion at all to that end. And did leave when security had reached some level of manageability by indigenous forces.

The entire Mid East saw the 'West' stick to its word and leave.... this cut the legs of the AQ movements narrative. Indeed we had the Arab Spring where democracy became something the Islamic world wanted and was happy to fight for. At the same time the militancy in the Mid East shifted back to its Sunni-Shia civil war roots, and from the chaos of the Syrian resistance to democracy we saw the ISIL emerge from that Sunni-Shia conflict basis and the new narrative develop of anti-anything-not-ISIL (which is a radical Sunni sect).

So what we get now is a smaller number of religo-political salafi terrorists trying to make everyone join their cult or die (ISIL narrative), versus the potential risk of most all Muslim's thinking the 'West' was out to destroy Islam and steal its oil (AQ narrative). The sad thing is many still believe the later.... all just IMO though.

Sigh :pinch:
But that is in the past, we need to look forward to do better I guess.

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Last edit: 06 Jul 2016 22:57 by Adder.
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07 Jul 2016 01:34 - 07 Jul 2016 01:35 #247497 by OB1Shinobi
i might come back with more links later but for now i'll just say this: if you want to know who was responsible you could start with the roman adage "cui bono?"

who benefits?

there are players who gained in ways the public cant know but there are plenty enough we can identify

People are complicated.
Last edit: 07 Jul 2016 01:35 by OB1Shinobi.

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07 Jul 2016 01:51 #247499 by Adder

OB1Shinobi wrote: i might come back with more links later but for now i'll just say this: if you want to know who was responsible you could start with the roman adage "cui bono?"

who benefits?

there are players who gained in ways the public cant know but there are plenty enough we can identify


I dunno, if people wanted war there has been plenty of opportunities to create plenty of it. To me it looks like its trying to be avoided in the face of various disjointed forces pushing for it at various times and places. The forces of capitalism are inherently similar in some respects and their activity in communities involved with war further add to the illusion of it being to blame, but I think that is confusing different things which are happening to share the same space and time. You could be right though, I dunno!!!

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Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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07 Jul 2016 03:59 #247503 by Tellahane

Senan wrote: If our soldiers questioned the motive of every order they received, they would be ignoring other virtues we like to promote here in our Temple, those of faith, courage, loyalty and integrity.


So are you inferring that if a higher rank jedi gave you the order to go in and destroy an area for the sake of a better world you would do it without wondering if that higher rank even knows what they are doing and why? or doesn't have a motive on their own?

What about some other important virtues, knowledge, wisdom, nobility, honesty, if you don't know as much of the full picture as possible how can you act blindly.

I'm not saying it needs to be one extreme or the other, but communication is critical to anything and everything, go here do this because i said so is a poor order, do this go here, because this is happening, and this is our goal is a far better one.

I'm not placing blame on OUR boots on the ground, I'm placing the blame on anyone who takes actions on either side, doesn't matter which boots they are wearing. The reason our boots were on the ground was because someone elses already was, if that wasn't the case, ours wouldn't, and/or shouldn't have been there. We haven't invaded france lately...other then maybe for a special gathering that idk.

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07 Jul 2016 07:58 #247509 by

OB1Shinobi wrote: i might come back with more links later but for now i'll just say this: if you want to know who was responsible you could start with the roman adage "cui bono?"

who benefits?

there are players who gained in ways the public cant know but there are plenty enough we can identify


Yess please follow the money ..

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07 Jul 2016 08:16 - 07 Jul 2016 08:22 #247512 by
Questions of blame are pointless, and distract from the real problems we as a civilisation now face. The "players" here are now squarely "off the board", and not in a position to inflict this terrible tragedy on anyone else.

The important questions are - what do we do to end the conflict? How can we help those whose lives have been ruined by this war? And, crucially, how can we prevent this from happening again?

Tellahane wrote: So are you inferring that if a higher rank jedi gave you the order to go in and destroy an area for the sake of a better world you would do it without wondering if that higher rank even knows what they are doing and why? or doesn't have a motive on their own?


This straw man isn't helpful. Jedi don't throw other Jedi into military prisons and destroy their careers for disobeying orders. Jedi don't actually issue orders at all, and there is no way a Jedi can compel another to act - totally unlike the military, which only ever operates on the basis that orders are absolute. Frankly I find it a little offensive that the two things are even likened here - this is a religious Temple, not a cult militia.
Last edit: 07 Jul 2016 08:22 by .

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07 Jul 2016 09:14 #247514 by ren

Questions of blame are pointless, and distract from the real problems we as a civilisation now face


The problem we face as a civilization is that people who are to blame for the destruction of entire countries, like yourself, are not being held accountable.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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07 Jul 2016 09:17 #247515 by
Oh look, ren is trying to provoke. In other news, water wet. I protested against this war several times, as it happens.

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07 Jul 2016 11:46 #247522 by
Yeah lets all play silly buggers and blame eachother, wars are about money , never about people and ideas , just follow the money , without these issues we would not be looking at eachother at all, we would not care , what do we care if people are treated like shit in other countries , look at the general attitude people have towards refugees " Ow i want to help but i dont want to give up my priviliges and what my parents have built " *pouty entitled face *. But they conveniently forget , someone had to pay for that ..and its very likely not just their parents!

To come to an agreement we must first accept how pety and puny we all are and start working together in building a foundation for peace , we need to get over ourselves and accept we are all in this together ! One planet , so much stupit ..i am getting annoyed her :laugh:

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07 Jul 2016 11:56 #247523 by
As a Jedi, one must do what will benefit the most people, and must prevent the deaths of as many as they can. Not even bin Laden or Hussein should have been killed. Life is the most important thing the Force has given us.

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07 Jul 2016 12:04 #247526 by

Silas Mercury wrote: As a Jedi, one must do what will benefit the most people, and must prevent the deaths of as many as they can. Not even bin Laden or Hussein should have been killed. Life is the most important thing the Force has given us.


I get that , but seeing we arent as organized yet and dont have any power or say in political matters and i am not even sure i want that , i am glad i can help the people in my village as Jedi as i can ;)

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07 Jul 2016 13:45 - 07 Jul 2016 13:58 #247531 by OB1Shinobi

tzb wrote: Questions of blame are pointless, and distract from the real problems we as a civilisation now face. The "players" here are now squarely "off the board", and not in a position to inflict this terrible tragedy on anyone else.


i disagree that the players are off the board

i disagree that identifying them would be pointless or distract from "the real problem"

they are the real problem lol

or a large part of it

so obviously i disagree that ignoring them is in any way a good idea

The important questions are - what do we do to end the conflict? How can we help those whose lives have been ruined by this war? And, crucially, how can we prevent this from happening again?


well it does stand to reason that to do this you would have to know why it was initiated to begin with, and by whom

how do you expect to end something if you dont actually understand what caused it?

much less prevent it from happening again?

People are complicated.
Last edit: 07 Jul 2016 13:58 by OB1Shinobi.

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07 Jul 2016 13:47 - 07 Jul 2016 13:50 #247533 by OB1Shinobi

Silas Mercury wrote: As a Jedi, one must do what will benefit the most people, and must prevent the deaths of as many as they can. Not even bin Laden or Hussein should have been killed. Life is the most important thing the Force has given us.


poor guy, 22 yrs old and still a virgin

so he goes on a shooting spree

whose life was important here, his?

or his victims?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVpcCpkF0Nk

People are complicated.
Last edit: 07 Jul 2016 13:50 by OB1Shinobi.

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07 Jul 2016 15:40 #247540 by

MartaLina wrote: Yeah lets all play silly buggers and blame eachother, wars are about money , never about people and ideas , just follow the money , without these issues we would not be looking at eachother at all, we would not care , what do we care if people are treated like shit in other countries , look at the general attitude people have towards refugees " Ow i want to help but i dont want to give up my priviliges and what my parents have built " *pouty entitled face *. But they conveniently forget , someone had to pay for that ..and its very likely not just their parents!


We should be a bit more cautious here. Money is certainly a great motivator for many, but war is not always about money. In fact, they are more often started because of conflicting ideas and people who disagree. The money comes later. The U.S and French revolutions, The U.S. Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Somalia... All of these conflicts stood to make a military/industrial complex money, but every one of them was centered around an ideological conflict first.

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07 Jul 2016 16:53 #247546 by

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Silas Mercury wrote: As a Jedi, one must do what will benefit the most people, and must prevent the deaths of as many as they can. Not even bin Laden or Hussein should have been killed. Life is the most important thing the Force has given us.


poor guy, 22 yrs old and still a virgin

so he goes on a shooting spree

whose life was important here, his?

or his victims?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVpcCpkF0Nk


Everyone's life. Those who are already dead cannot be saved. But if cops were to dart him and lock him up, they can sleep knowing that they saved at least one more life.

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07 Jul 2016 17:03 - 07 Jul 2016 17:11 #247549 by MadHatter

Silas Mercury wrote: Everyone's life. Those who are already dead cannot be saved. But if cops were to dart him and lock him up, they can sleep knowing that they saved at least one more life.

In the time the sedative takes to kick in he can kill or injure many others. Anything that works fast enough to matter will kill you. When the fecal matter hits the fan you can grab an umbrella and pray that you do not get hit or you can unplug the fan. When someone is taking the lives of innocent people whatever needs to be done to stop them should be done. And you do not have time to play games with less lethal options while people die. Life may be sacred but when someone else does not feel that way then you do what you must to protect others.

I will also add the Dalai Lama agrees with me

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Last edit: 07 Jul 2016 17:11 by MadHatter.
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07 Jul 2016 19:15 #247563 by

MadHatter wrote: And you do not have time to play games with less lethal options while people die. [...]

I will also add the Dalai Lama agrees with me

(emphasis mine)

The rest of that quote is, "Not at the head, where a fatal wound might result. But at some other body part, such as a leg." His Holiness was not exactly advocating one blow someone's head off, even when he or she poses a threat to someone else's life. Besides that, what does the current Dalai Lama have to do with anything other than (Tibetan) Buddhism? At the end of the day, he's just a person who has opinions like everyone else.

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