Zen and apathy

a thought occurred to me just now during my studies on zen: how closely related are zen and ...some form of benevolent apathy? caring about the 'good things' enough to want to see them pass, but not so much that that desire is too much?

i dumbed this down from watts' take on purpose to try to keep this understandable.

I struggle to understand how apathy is beneficial to an individual...especially given the "good" of a certain thing.

I've yet to find a compelling argument for it's employment - in regards to the use towards things "good."

(good is of course subjective...but that aside)

I think it's less apathy, and more a wabi-sabi mindset--it isn't that we shouldn't care about the good things, it's that we should acknowledge that they are transient, and be willing to allow them to pass without clinging harmfully to them.

Desolous wrote: a thought occurred to me just now during my studies on zen: how closely related are zen and ...some form of benevolent apathy? caring about the 'good things' enough to want to see them pass, but not so much that that desire is too much?

i dumbed this down from watts' take on purpose to try to keep this understandable.

Apathy? I thought Zen is about not becoming overly attached to things?

steamboat28 wrote: I think it's less apathy, and more a wabi-sabi mindset--it isn't that we shouldn't care about the good things, it's that we should acknowledge that they are transient, and be willing to allow them to pass without clinging harmfully to them.

Yes. Apathy is having a lack of interest or concern. While I understand what you are trying to convey by your using that word that is a distinct difference between that and having a 'Zen' mindset.

A practitioner of Zen observes the events around them, lets them happen, and then lets that pass to be absorbed into the next set of events...

A Zen practitioner isn't someone who doesn't engage in the things around them -that is impossible and immoral- rather they would let what ever is going to happen, do their best in that circumstance and then whatever happens they move on when that moment passes. As Rickie said Zen is about not being attached to things in the sense that they don't let their mind become worrisomely troubled but rather acknowledge that what ever happens or will happen is just that and move on.

Eastern philosophy can be hard to translate into Western language because it is a way of life and a mindset rather than a simple word by word translation...

I spoke with LTK of 'contentment', or 'acceptance' of what "IS"...

This is the same...

DO not get upset, things are temporary... "This too will pass..."

(I feel like Maynoth, lol)

This sounds to me like denial and self-deception. When something dreadful happens to me or
someone close to me - accident, illness, pain of some kind or death - I can pretend that it isn't bad, but the fact remains that it is bad, so why deny it?

You are not pretending anything. You are allowing it to be as it is, that's all. This "allowing to be" takes you beyond the mind with its resistance patterns that create the positive-negative
polarities. It is an essential aspect of forgiveness. Forgiveness of the present is even more
important than forgiveness of the past. If you forgive every moment - allow it to be as it is -
then there will be no accumulation of resentment that needs to be forgiven at some later time.

Remember that we are not talking about happiness here. For example, when a loved one
has just died, or you feel your own death approaching, you cannot be happy. It is impossible.
But you can be at peace. There may be sadness and tears, but provided that you have
relinquished resistance, underneath the sadness you will feel a deep serenity, a stillness, a
sacred presence. This is the emanation of Being, this is inner peace, the good that has no
opposite.


What if it is a situation that I can do something about? How can I allow it to be and change it at the same time?

Do what you have to do. In the meantime, accept what is. Since mind and resistance are
synonymous, acceptance immediately frees you from mind dominance and thus reconnects
you with Being. As a result, the usual ego motivations for "doing" - fear, greed, control,
defending or feeding the false sense of self - will cease to operate. An intelligence much
greater than the mind is now in charge, and so a different quality of consciousness will flow
into your doing.

"Accept whatever comes to you woven in the pattern of your destiny, for what could
more aptly fit your needs?" This was written 2,000 years ago by Marcus Aurelius, one of those
exceedingly rare humans who possessed worldly power as well as wisdom.

It seems that most people need to experience a great deal of suffering before they will
relinquish resistance and accept - before they will forgive. As soon as they do, one of the
greatest miracles happens: the awakening of Being-consciousness through what appears as
evil, the transmutation of suffering into inner peace. The ultimate effect of all the evil and
suffering in the world is that it will force humans into realizing who they are beyond name
and form. Thus, what we perceive as evil from our limited perspective is actually part of the
higher good that has no opposite. This, however, does not become true for you except
through forgiveness. Until that happens, evil has not been redeemed and therefore remains
evil.

Through forgiveness, which essentially means recognizing the insubstantiality of the past
and allowing the present moment to be as it is, the miracle of transformation happens not
only within but also without. A silent space of intense presence arises both in you and around
you. Whoever or whatever enters that field of consciousness will be affected by it, sometimes
visibly and immediately, sometimes at deeper levels with visible changes appearing at a later
time. You dissolve discord, heal pain, dispel unconsciousness - without doing anything -
simply by being and holding that frequency of intense presence.

I hope that makes sense, lol...

how closely related are zen and ...some form of benevolent apathy?

They're not related at all when one is truly Zen. In which case, both apathy and attachment are allowed, just as caring and detachment are allowed. There is nothing else I can say :silly:

To me, apathy represents sitting around and literally not doing or caring about anything. Even "benevolent apathy" would be that with a smile.
The zen mindset of letting life come and go and "letting it pass," still includes acting as you see fit while "it" is here. Part of what you have to accept and let go of is your own actions in a situation that is past (or "passed). Being zen means doing your work, taking an active part in it that you agree with and feel ok about, and then letting it become memory and seeing what comes next.

It isn't "apathy" -- there is a lot of Love in Zen (tao) ~

Tao Te Ching 13 :

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear. What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance. What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear? See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.

It is really a more natural way of caring about things ...

Imagine you are looking after a child... maybe someone else's, or maybe your own...

You are outside, near a lake.

The child goes running toward the lake. The child could be in danger of falling in. You must do something.

Scenario 1: You get up and run to the child. Upset and scared, you raise your voice harshly at the child as you pick them up, bring them back. "DON'T DO THAT! YOU COULD FALL INTO THE WATER AND DROWN YOU KNOW!!"

... the child begins to cry.

You acted and saved the child from going into the water... yet you also felt an emotional, fighting resistance to what happened, which ended up making you lose your temper out of fear toward the potential situation.

Scenario 2: You get up, go to the child, pick them up, and bring them back to safety. You put the child down, and on the child's face to face level, you speak calmly saying "No no now, we do Not go toward the water. If you did, you could fall in, and you don't know how to swim, right?"

The child shakes their head no.

"Do we want to be in trouble?" you ask.

The child shakes their head no.

"Let's stay away from the water then, okay?" you say with a smile.

The child nods, and runs the away from the lake to play.



The difference between these two scenarios is a matter of acceptance. It is a matter of "reacting" in scenario 1, vs "responding" in scenario 2.

Apathy would be letting the kid keep running toward the water, watching the them fall in, and taking no part in the situation.

Zen would be involved in Scenario 2. Acting without resisting emotionally to the reality of the situation, keeps one calm and lets them "respond", and not "react". You are in more control this way. In this condition, the mind is clearer and sharper. The attention to the situation is more involved on simply resolving the present and not attached to potentially bad outcomes. After the moment comes and goes, one does not stress over it over and over, thinking about what could have happened. One can reflect upon the event briefly to take away what is needed and useful for the future, but then it is let go of and the mind comes back to the present.