Knight Hosted IP Discussion in Chat Saturday, February 27 at 21:00 UTC

Hiya,

It’s my turn to lead an IP Discussion! This week’s discussion will be held on Saturday, February 27 at 21:00 UTC
Because it is Saturday, I am prepared two spend 2 hours with you!
I’d like to focus on the practicality of Watts, Campbell, and Mindwalk, so it would be helpful to (re)familiarize yourself with those portions of the Initiates Program.

I’m looking forward to seeing you all there
Ros

About 2 hrs from now!!!

Is there a way to join the chat in Tapatalk?

Unfortunately, no...

We are working on a long term solution...

Happening now!!

Jestor wrote: Unfortunately, no...

We are working on a long term solution...

Found a way to my desktop for a little bit.

Chat Transcript
(13:07:32) Rosalyn_J: did anyone have any questions?
(13:08:22) Snowy_Aftermath: I'm still having trouble really comprehending Campbell's definition of "the sublime". I expect that it's something that's kinda beyond words.
(13:08:32) Snowy_Aftermath: Would that be a true statement?
(13:08:50) Rosalyn_J: can you sort of contextualize that for me
(13:09:01) Rosalyn_J: what does he say before and after?
(13:09:15) Snowy_Aftermath: Well he insisted that it wasn't an epiphany, it was more than that.
(13:09:23) Snowy_Aftermath: It was near the end of the 6th video.
(13:09:40) Rosalyn_J: ok so
(13:09:50) Rosalyn_J: Novices, what is tbe sublime?
(13:09:56) Rosalyn_J: *the
(13:10:10) Snowy_Aftermath: It was just before he talked about how monsters are kind of the thing that wreck all of your standards for harmony and ethics
(13:12:37) Rosalyn_J: CAMPBELL: There's another emotion associated with art, which is not of the beautiful
but of the sublime. What we call monsters can be experienced as sublime. They
represent powers too vast for the normal forms of life to contain them. An immense
expanse of space is sublime. The Buddhists know how to achieve this effect in situating
their temples, which are often up on high hills. For example, some of the temple gardens
in Japan are designed so that you will first be experiencing close-in, intimate
arrangements. Meanwhile, you're climbing, until suddenly you break past a screen and
an expanse of horizon opens out, and somehow, with this diminishment of your own ego,
your consciousness expands to an experience of the sublime.
Another mode of the sublime is of prodigious energy, force, and power. I've known a
number of people who were in Central Europe during the Anglo-American saturation
bombings of their cities -- and several have described this inhuman experience as not
only terrible but in a measure sublime.
(13:12:47) Rosalyn_J: that?
(13:12:51) elizabeth: I know I am not a novice but its similar to awe inspiring...
(13:14:08) Dechlain: Agreed, elizabeth. Something that is in effect surreal...too unreal to be real
(13:14:18) Dechlain: Even if it is.
(13:14:19) Snowy_Aftermath: maybe it's just me, but that's so big and intimidating a concept... maybe I'm just not ready for it yet xD
(13:14:22) Rosalyn_J: Yes, I would say that it is what Elizabeth pointed out
(13:15:17) Rosalyn_J: Well, can you remember a time in your life when you experienced somethng and thought "holy shit"!!!
(13:15:39) Snowy_Aftermath nods
(13:16:00) Rosalyn_J: right
(13:16:02) elizabeth: if its a big and intimidating concept then you are already feeling a awe about it
(13:16:20) elizabeth: sorry ros shutting up now
(13:16:29) Snowy_Aftermath: well that's ironic xD
(13:16:31) Rosalyn_J: that's your mind considering the subime
(13:16:54) Archaic_Smile: I loved how Campbell described sublime as beyond good and evil, because it can be either one
(13:17:29) Archaic_Smile: the thing for which there are no words. so true.
(13:18:14) Snowy_Aftermath: I know it's probably terrible to say, but like, some of the devastation after terrorists attacks in the news has just left me with this hole inside... I guess that could be a kind of sublime. It's so evil, but so unable to be contemplated.
(13:18:54) elizabeth: evil and good are just the same scale just different ends
(13:19:09) Snowy_Aftermath nods again
(13:19:11) Snowy_Aftermath: thank you
(13:19:12) elizabeth: same feeling
(13:19:40) Rosalyn_J: the thing is is everything in life is "sublime" until it becomes mundane
(13:19:50) Rosalyn_J: routine
(13:20:19) Snowy_Aftermath: but won't you kinda go off the deep end with that much sublime content? I think your brain would need to check out after seeing things that way for long enough.
(13:20:35) Snowy_Aftermath: but yeah, the whole world could kinda get like that if you chose to see it that way.
(13:20:38) elizabeth: we are all crazy
(13:21:02) Rosalyn_J: the thing is we are "experiencing" it
(13:21:29) Snowy_Aftermath: I'm not sure what you mean
(13:21:29) Rosalyn_J: we wake up in the morning and go to bed at night and in between those times, the world is sublime
(13:21:40) Snowy_Aftermath: ah
(13:21:41) Dechlain: Joseph Campbell said this in A Joseph Cambpell Companion: "The less there is of you, the more you experience the sublime."
(13:22:28) Rosalyn_J: we "check out" because we are more concerned with "us" then we are with the experience
(13:22:33) Rosalyn_J: yes Dec
(13:22:48) elizabeth: us is part of the experience though
(13:22:54) Rosalyn_J: true
(13:23:06) Rosalyn_J: but we can take "us" to the extreme
(13:23:23) Snowy_Aftermath: well yes, I guess that's one way of seeing it. too much of anything is unhealthy though, riht?
(13:23:33) Rosalyn_J: right
(13:23:48) Rosalyn_J: I'm not suggesting checking out entirely
(13:23:51) elizabeth: perspective..gotta keep things in perspective
(13:23:56) Rosalyn_J: in one direction or another
(13:24:07) Rosalyn_J: whether sublime or mundane
(13:24:26) Snowy_Aftermath: I meant "checking out" as in "going crazy because it's too much". but either definition works, ha
(13:25:03) Rosalyn_J: but let me ask "what would change in our lives, our way of living if for a period of time each day, we took time to experience the wonder and the awe around us
(13:25:07) Rosalyn_J: ?
(13:25:14) elizabeth: mental illness in some places is seen as part of spirituality.. the journey snowy
(13:26:43) Archaic_Smile: I guess it's the tension between living in the moment and living mindful of the future. most people live mindful of the future (or perhaps mind full of the future, would be a more apt way to describe it) neglecting the present moment.
(13:27:16) Gwinn: Ros, I know the more time I spent looking for the beauty and connections in the world, on my walks and stuff, I kind of feel less attached to myself.
(13:27:22) Gwinn: spend*
(13:27:44) Rosalyn_J: well, we never see the future as the future, only as the present when it comes to us
(13:27:49) elizabeth: what do you mean less attached to yourself
(13:28:04) Rosalyn_J: so your ides "mind full" is pretty apt
(13:28:34) Rosalyn_J: when we think about/ fret over the future, we have a hard time appreciating the present
(13:28:39) Gwinn: Elizabeth...I don't feel as much like I'm the center of the universe.
(13:28:58) elizabeth: not quite what I meant lol
(13:29:13) Archaic_Smile: I find appreciation of the present to be very difficult. That's what I'm currently struggling with most, I think.
(13:29:34) Rosalyn_J: I think your situation is not unique
(13:30:07) Rosalyn_J: current society pushes us towards the future with the "next big thing", "time saving devices" etc
(13:30:14) elizabeth: plus you are author of your journey, creator of your path
(13:30:47) Archaic_Smile: yes, and some of us are diagnosed with depression, which makes it even more difficult because we're taught to only appreciate the state of happiness
(13:30:57) Rosalyn_J: to get our mind on the present, we have to make a conscious effort moment by momebt
(13:31:16) Archaic_Smile: speaking as someone struggling with that issue.
(13:31:47) Rosalyn_J: ah Archaic...that's like trying to keep the mountains and discarding the valley's
(13:32:05) Rosalyn_J: dont mind that appostrophy
(13:32:43) Archaic_Smile: Yes, I believe that. it's just hard to undo the conditioning of society, right? It's not OK to be sad. Everyone has to be okay, or good, or happy.
(13:32:44) Rosalyn_J: but its true
(13:32:47) Temple Bot: Alan has joined the chat.
(13:33:02) Rosalyn_J: it is hard to undo it
(13:33:20) Rosalyn_J: we are talking years and years of conditioning
(13:33:35) Rosalyn_J: towards certain bends and biases
(13:34:04) Archaic_Smile: A lifetime for me. That's what I'm trying to undo, to even know what my feelings are! so strange.
(13:34:21) Rosalyn_J: its something I have to keep reminding myself
(13:34:33) elizabeth: a lot of peoples journey are similar to that
(13:34:47) Rosalyn_J: we're not going to undo conditioning with an essay
(13:35:01) elizabeth: learning to know feelings, understand them, accept
(13:35:31) Rosalyn_J: even if we "know" the knowledge, it takes years for the knowledge to be applied, or even be applicable
(13:35:55) Archaic_Smile: yeah.
(13:37:59) elizabeth: that makes it sound impossible, but shouldn't you be looking at it as it starts now, small steps in the moment.
(13:38:41) Rosalyn_J: yes, you're right
(13:40:31) Rosalyn_J: which is sort of what I was aiming for
(13:41:10) Rosalyn_J: Personally, I often "beat myself up" for not "doing" what it is I "know" to "do"
(13:42:29) Temple Bot: JLSpinner has joined the chat.
(13:42:42) Rosalyn_J: It has been my experience that one day the "knowledge" and the "action" just click
(13:42:47) Ryder: Just caught up. Sublime, huh? I should explain that concept to my mom when she refuses to buy me (and have me pay her back) for gory anthro posters.
(13:43:19) elizabeth: right action
(13:43:53) Rosalyn_J: ah, perhaps. Although I am not very versed in the 8 fold path
(13:44:33) Rosalyn_J: have we covered that topic well?
(13:44:48) Rosalyn_J: If so, does anyone have any other questions?
---- Somehow I lost this part

---

(14:11:03) Archaic_Smile: right, and that can happen through practicing behaviors that refocus attention
(14:11:28) Archaic_Smile: if I'm doing something that requires my full attention, I'm probably not going to be ruminating.
(14:12:10) Temple Bot: McNulty has joined the chat.
(14:12:33) Vusuki: so to sum up- theres a link between the divine and focusing/being aware/being part of that experience?
(14:12:38) Alan: After a while all the musical training disappears and all that is left is the now 'spontaneous' playing of the musical instrument.
(14:13:02) Archaic_Smile: anyway I think we're more or less agreeing and it's a semantic difference, if there's a difference at all.
(14:14:47) Vusuki: so what's next sorry?
(14:15:11) Rosalyn_J: I'd be ready for any other questions
(14:15:45) McNulty: Sorry for sneaking in late. I'll participate a bit more after observing for a moment.
(14:16:28) Rosalyn_J: cool
(14:16:58) Vusuki: Do you think
(14:17:06) Dechlain: Must be going. Force be with you all.
(14:17:07) Temple Bot: Snowy_Aftermath has been logged out (Timeout).
(14:17:11) Vusuki: that at 25 or so
(14:17:18) Rosalyn_J: (whispers to Proteus) fudge I just lost the whole chat log
(14:17:34) Vusuki: we can understand the hero's journey and where we are on it?
(14:17:43) Temple Bot: Ryder has joined the chat.
(14:18:00) Rosalyn_J: I think that on some level we can
(14:18:26) Alan: At any given time we could be at one or more stages simultaneously.
(14:18:37) Rosalyn_J: but I think as we grow, and age, it becomes a deeper level of understanding
(14:19:14) Vusuki: I suppose that this is a comparison of sorts
(14:19:24) Rosalyn_J: and like Alan just said, we realize that we could be at one or various stages simultanniously
(14:19:25) McNulty: I think some people are naturally more insightful or aware, and can have a deeper understanding at a younger age
(14:19:30) Temple Bot: Dechlain has been logged out (Timeout).
(14:19:33) Vusuki: Everone has their own unique journey and that's ok
(14:20:10) Rosalyn_J: I think its also important to understand that you are not just on your own journey as "hero"
(14:20:38) Rosalyn_J: but you also occupy different spaces in the journeys of others
(14:20:57) Gwinn: Oooo
(14:21:07) Gwinn: That's a good point.
(14:21:17) Vusuki: I remember more vaguely the roles we play in other people's lives
(14:21:20) Vusuki: The old man
(14:21:23) Vusuki: the Fool
(14:21:38) Alan: The journey could be thought of as the entirety of one's whole life. The Journey might also be something ordinary that one has to accomplish in th enear term.
(14:21:40) Vusuki: But this is pretty linked with Jung no?
(14:23:21) Alan: The archetypes that we encounter along the way change. So also our own archetypal role might change. One day the Fool, another the Mentor.
(14:25:15) Vusuki: I need to finish Hero with a Thousand Faces
(14:25:39) Rosalyn_J: I haven't read it, but I have it
(14:26:16) McNulty: I appreciate that the journey can occur in so many different ways. A challenge at work, followed by the attempt to tackle it, can be a journey. Micro and macro scale come in to play.
(14:26:17) Vusuki: It's a heavy read. I've 'gone through the words' once but it's only on second reading I feel I'm understanding bits. And I'm afraid my battery is low and I intend to sleep soon so...
(14:26:26) Vusuki: I will say my farewells now
(14:26:48) Vusuki: Thanks for being around and I hope you all have a pleasant day. Thanks for chatting with me!
(14:27:10) Temple Bot: Ryder has been logged out (Timeout).
----New member came in to ask questions
(14:43:32) Rosalyn_J: hey guys I don't want to hold you up too long
(14:43:54) Rosalyn_J: thanks so much for hanging out with me. I learned a lot and I hope you did as well

Thanks for setting this up!

When I hear Campbell talk of The Sublime, I'm always reminded of the literary concept, most at home with the Romantic movement: https://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/engl_258/Lecture%20Notes/sublime.htm