Meeting of the Clergy 23 April 2016 18:00 UTC

Can i get you to send it again? There are lots of people on my skype

Rosalyn J wrote: Can i get you to send it again? There are lots of people on my skype

Done

Transcript Below

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[11:09:27 AM] Michael Kitchen: Could we have a roll call of who's here?
[11:09:43 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: that was my next step
[11:09:45 AM] Rosalyn Johnson:
[11:09:49 AM] D. Alex Bird: By all means. Present.
[11:09:54 AM] Darren M. Baldwin: Present.
[11:09:55 AM] Michael Kitchen: Present
[11:09:58 AM] Bruno: present
[11:10:01 AM] Snowy Aftermath: Present!
[11:10:05 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Present
[11:10:14 AM] V: Present (on phone, so beware of slow typing :$ )
[11:10:25 AM] Mitchell: Present. waves
[11:10:42 AM | Edited 11:11:24 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: 1. Changes to the Clergy
2. The Clerical Handbook
3. Vacancy: Assistant Pastor to the Seminary
4. Questions and Suggestions
[11:11:02 AM] Alexandre Orion: Okay ... I'm here now
[11:11:12 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: that's the agenda
[11:11:31 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Now, some points of order
[11:11:46 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: We'd like to give everyone a chance to speak
[11:11:57 AM] Proteus: Present
[11:12:04 AM] Bart: Present
[11:12:08 AM | Edited 11:12:27 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: so rather than running over each other, we have what is called "Ask to speak"
[11:12:35 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: which means that you will send me a message via Skype when you would like to address something in a discussion
[11:13:07 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: I'll let you know when you can speak, because there might be people ahead of you
[11:13:20 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: everybody clear?
[11:13:23 AM] Carlos: Present
[11:13:31 AM] Carlos: Yes
[11:13:34 AM] Proteus: Roger Roger
[11:13:41 AM] *** Snowy Aftermath nods ***
[11:13:42 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Awesome
[11:13:43 AM] D. Alex Bird: Yes
[11:14:07 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: So lets begin with the Changes to the Clergy
[11:14:29 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: (please members of the Synod, drop in if I forget something)
[11:15:19 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: There is a proposal in Council presently which outlines considerable changes to the Clergy
[11:15:42 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: it is broken up into articles
[11:16:23 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: One of the articles, which concerns the naming of the clergy "ranks" and "offices" has been passed
[11:17:39 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Cabur is going to take it from here
[11:18:34 AM] D. Alex Bird: The change in names is not for window dressing, but represents a shift in the orientation of the Clergy. A shift in emphasis.
[11:18:47 AM] D. Alex Bird: Also, a step toward our own identity.
[11:19:09 AM] D. Alex Bird: We have borrowed terms from the religions to good effect.
[11:19:25 AM] D. Alex Bird: It was useful, but it is time we moved on.
[11:20:21 AM] D. Alex Bird: To whit, much as the Temple focuses around the role of the Knight, our Clergy will center itself around the Guide.
[11:20:25 AM] *** Alexandre Orion added Sajjad Heydari ***
[11:21:08 AM] D. Alex Bird: Guide will become the new term to describe our ordained Clergy, with Senior and Master Guide extending past.
[11:22:39 AM] D. Alex Bird: We will not regard ourselves as shepherds with a flock, as that paradigm doesn't really serve here.
[11:23:23 AM] D. Alex Bird: Instead, our role will be to help people explore their own spiritual questions and concerns.
[11:24:19 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Here are the new "rank" and "office" titles
[11:24:22 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Ranks:
Seminarians remain Seminarians.
Licensed Ministers become Acolytes.
Deacons become Guides.
Priests become Senior Guides.
Bishops become Master Guides.

Synod Offices
The Pastor becomes The Magister.
Assistant Pastors become Vice Magisters.
Secretaries remain Secretaries.
[11:25:01 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: And now, Mitchell would like to address us
[11:25:23 AM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Mitchell" ***
[11:30:05 AM] Mitchell: Hi, steamboat28, founder of "Words Mean Things™." I have a couple of questions:

1) The nature of the term "Guide" seems informal; how will you denote to legal authority in various principalities that these are actually ordained clergy? What additional steps will the Council and Synod take to ensure this causes no disruption of service for legally-overseen clerical work?

2) Related: given the fact that the majority of the Western world recognizes the terms already in effect, have the Council and Synod researched the extent to which such name changes will affect understanding with those outside of Jediism? When reporters, court officials, even lawyers in the future ask, will "Guide" be self-explanatory, or will the Synod and Council provide a complete definition that marks the individual clearly as a member of the ordained clergy?

3) Doesn't this diminish the role of Licenesed Ministers in the clergy? Acolytes are helpers, they aren't ministers in their own right.

4) Wouldn't "Magister" (a term coming from "master", meaning a teacher) be more applicable to the general clergy at this point?

5) If there is not an equally surprising change to the nature of the ranks, why simply rename them? I.E., you say it isn't window dressing, and yet it feels fully like window dressing to me.
[11:31:12 AM] Mitchell: (There was more, but that's already a wall of text.)
[11:31:18 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Ok
[11:31:33 AM] Mitchell: So at this point I yield for the answers to my queries.
[11:31:49 AM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Akkarin" ***
[11:33:49 AM] Michael Kitchen: "How do we denote to legal authorities"
Whenever a legal authority requests for documentation we can provide them with records. The name itself doesn't matter.
[11:36:52 AM] Michael Kitchen: "These names are less recognised"
We do not need to provide them with a complete definition, they will come to us with their questions and we will answer them. These names are about better reflecting our community. Let the external person worry about their own understanding of us
[11:37:11 AM] Carlos: ?
[11:37:33 AM] Michael Kitchen: 3) Acolytes are whatever our community chooses to make them
[11:37:50 AM] Carlos: Question
[11:38:57 AM] Michael Kitchen: 4) This point will need clarification
[11:40:44 AM] Michael Kitchen: 5) This would be window dressing if this was all we're doing, but there are a great many changes which, along with the Smeinary changes and introduction of Synod changes mean that since we are in the process of overhauling the Clergy if these changes better reflect us then this is a good opportunity to let our procedures reflect this
[11:41:17 AM] Michael Kitchen: On this point it should be noted that "Master/Senior/Guide" reflects the non-clerical ranks - makes it a little tidier
[11:41:41 AM] Michael Kitchen: (I'm finished)
[11:41:51 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Carlos has a question
[11:41:54 AM] Carlos: ?
[11:41:56 AM] Carlos: Yes
[11:42:00 AM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Carlos" ***
[11:43:44 AM] Carlos: I understand the want to create our own ranks and such I'm hands down for it but isn't and I'm sorry to pick on one thing but ackalade... isn't that a step down from licence minister? I know the level and all r same but the name...wise.
[11:44:29 AM] Alexandre Orion: No, Carlos ... it is not a 'step down'
[11:44:32 AM] Alexandre Orion: it is the same
[11:44:38 AM] Carlos: Accolades fall under some one else right?
[11:44:57 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Yes
[11:45:25 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Accolytes would be training up to Guide with a Senior Guide
[11:45:25 AM] Carlos: Would lm have a assigned mentor or "teachwr"
[11:45:31 AM] Carlos: I see!
[11:46:22 AM] Carlos: Like a aprentiship for clergy...
[11:46:29 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: yeah
[11:46:32 AM] Alexandre Orion: precisely
[11:46:33 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: that's the goal
[11:46:50 AM] Carlos: I understand
[11:47:00 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: so that's the one of the reasons for the Accolyte naming
[11:47:03 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: and now
[11:47:12 AM] Carlos: Thank u!
[11:48:00 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Mitchell will address us now
[11:48:10 AM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Mithcell" ***
[11:48:19 AM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Mitchell" ***
[11:48:31 AM] Mitchell: (red)
[11:48:33 AM] Mitchell: "The name itself doesn't matter."
Then why are we changing them? The people who take issue with the clergy at present don't take issue with the pseudo-Abrahamic rank structure, but with the actions of the clergy. You cannot change the actions of the clergy simply by changing names, and if you want to overcome the bias that so many Jedi have against Abrahamic faith structures coming in, the clergy should meet them with a change in attitude, not a change in name.

"Let the external person worry about their own understanding of us."
Which is a recipe for misunderstanding, both within and without. One of my problems with the use of the term "Guide" is that while it accurately reflects what the clergy should be doing, it's literally just that, and otherwise terribly vague. Clergy are supposed to be guides, yes. That's inherent in being clergy. We're also supposed to be servants. However, the realization that Jediist clergy are more guides than authority figures is something that (again) we should overcome with attitude and not just nomenclature, because it could potentially exist as a gatekeeping strategy. The realization that the Jedi path is distinct in TOTJO for every individual is a realization that some CLERGY haven't hit yet. It's far enough along the path currently that I feel it would fly over the heads of everyone not directly involved in the conversation that's making it happen.

"Acolytes are whatever our community chooses to make them."
So, yes, you are diminishing the role of the licensed minister in TOTJO. Because the Council and Synod have effectively decided that names actually mean things now, and an acolyte is nothing but a follower who aids in ceremonial matters. They are waterboys and brow-mop girls to clergy. This effectively shuts an entire class of ministry down, because nobody uses the LMs for anything now, because they aren't promoted as actual ministers. It will only get worse with this change, I can all but assure you.

And yes, Alex, it is a step down. And we've reached peak hypocrisy levels with this notion, as the term "Guide" has been chosen to affirm that every Jedi's path is different, but now LM's will not only be stripped of legal clerical power, but will be forcefed a single viewpoint until they "graduate" to Guide. I am not a fan.

"need(s) clarification..."
Guide seems like a lazy and generic term when compared to the fancy-sounding-but-ultimately-useless Acolyte and the grand-knowledgable-wise-egostroking of Magister. Magister, like Rabbi, means a teacher. Clergy teach as much as Synod members do, usually more if we separate the two offices by their circles of work.

"...makes it a little tidier."
Not really. It just dumbs down the association between the two that already exists.
[11:48:51 AM] Mitchell: The changes being proposed here are changes in the wrong direction for clergy.
[11:49:21 AM] Mitchell: In my opinion, this will add unnecessary work and remove any trust from the clergy that should've been taken care of before their admission into the Seminary.
[11:50:38 AM] Mitchell: Instead of spoon-feeding Licensed Mini--I'm sorry, Apprentices Again--we should expect them to perform and aid them where they founder. The clergy is a calling, it is not an occupation. It is not a job title, it is something that can only be done from the heart. You can train for it in those with willingness to serve, but you cannot create it wholecloth, even with the most ardent babysitting program.
[11:51:31 AM] Mitchell: Rather than indoctrinating Acolytes with a second apprenticeship, we should be empowering them to discover the foundational material beneath the tenets of the Jedi faith, and be exemplars of that to their community.
[11:52:33 AM] Mitchell: Especially after the past few months of people griping on the board and in my inbox that TOTJO is a "culty" "echo chamber". Where that trust has been violated, this is not the proper move toward a solution. It seems tone deaf.
[11:52:47 AM] Mitchell: And with that, I'll be able to read your replies, but I have to go perform a clerical function.
[11:52:54 AM] Mitchell: The floor is yours.
[11:54:02 AM] Carlos: ?
[11:54:40 AM] Carlos: Question
[11:54:57 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: there are several ahead of you
[11:55:14 AM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Akkarin" ***
[11:55:24 AM] Snowy Aftermath: Carlos, we're supposed to message Rosalyn to get in queue to speak
[11:55:56 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Akkarin will now address Steam's points
[11:56:51 AM] Carlos: I'm new to Skype not sure how
[11:57:52 AM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Snowy" ***
[11:58:02 AM] Snowy Aftermath: With all respect due... I agree that we need to progress and move on from the names we're using now. But I would give anything to change the name to something like "minster" that is at least recognizable amidst the general public. "Guide" sounds like we're here to tutor folks on how to use the website. Nobody will 1) know what it is and 2) take it seriously. Any title we have needs to communicate what we're here for.

It can look like "licensed minister", "senior minister", "master of ministry", etc. But "guide" just feels like we're camp counselors, not people who have been validly trained to look after the spiritual welfare of the community.

With that said, I yield.
[11:58:44 AM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Carlos" ***
[11:59:09 AM] Bart: question
[11:59:57 AM] Rosalyn Johnson: Carlos whats your question
[12:00:50 PM] Carlos: Thanks
[12:01:35 PM] Carlos: When will assign or will it be a self find as open as the knight hood for the finding of a spiritual master
[12:01:53 PM] Carlos: Who
[12:02:28 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Well, all of the changes haven't been implemented, so I cant give you a definite time frame
[12:02:38 PM] Carlos: I see where the intention is headed.
[12:02:52 PM] Carlos: Who will vote on the changes?
[12:03:03 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: the Council
[12:03:33 PM] Carlos: Can we as individuals send a letter pm to them?
[12:03:46 PM] Carlos: About the vote decision and all
[12:04:13 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: you're best bet would be to PM the Synod
[12:04:26 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: which is the judiciary body of the clergy
[12:04:37 PM] Carlos: Thanku!
[12:04:42 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: no problem
[12:04:51 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Aqua has a question
[12:04:59 PM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Aqua" ***
[12:06:38 PM] Bart: I dislike the word ‘’ Acolyte``. It feels different when you compare it with the words ‘’guide’’, ‘’senior guide’’, and ‘’master guide’’. Would it be possible to create more unity in it? If not I am also happy Just wondering..
[12:06:54 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: what would you suggest?
[12:07:17 PM] Snowy Aftermath: minister
[12:07:24 PM] Snowy Aftermath: for all of it xD
[12:07:33 PM] *** Snowy Aftermath shuts up again, as it's not her turn ***
[12:07:35 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Can I just say something
[12:10:31 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Bart are you finished?
[12:10:36 PM] Bart: Mm.. I am not sure if I would have a different word for it so quickly.. I am sure that there are enough words that fit with the ''guide'' theme, like a licensed guide?
[12:10:40 PM] Bart: I am
[12:10:48 PM] Bart: I was looking for the correct word ^^
[12:12:18 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: V is going to address us
[12:12:29 PM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -V tog" ***
[12:13:31 PM] V: Oh, um...hello everyone
[12:14:11 PM] V: It was just a small point of clarification really, one that I should have pointed out a little earlier sorry...
[12:14:55 PM] V: Which was that these proposals (including some not yet reached) have been put to the Council, as mentioned
[12:15:29 PM] V: But they have been put to the Council as an initial proposal
[12:16:04 PM] V: We have had feedback on some - 'approval' (or otherwise), as such
[12:16:46 PM] V: But that doesn't mean that they are now set in stone.
[12:18:20 PM] V: We generally hope that people will understand that a number of us have spent a great deal of time and energy discussing these things, to come up with an initial proposal that is for the benefit of the Clergy and the Temple
[12:18:40 PM] V: They weren't just plucked out of thin air on a whim
[12:18:48 PM] V: But
[12:19:35 PM] V: This meeting is very much to talk with you about them, not to simply tell you
[12:19:47 PM] V: Yes, we are 'telling' you the initial proposals
[12:20:02 PM] V: But we aren't 'telling' you the final outcome
[12:20:15 PM] V: You guys are here to help with determining that
[12:20:50 PM] V: So if you don't like something - that's fine! Please don't feel outraged about it being forced on you - because at this point, nothing is being forced on anyone.
[12:22:01 PM] V: That was it, really...
[12:23:09 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: ok
[12:23:15 PM] V: For instance, this term 'Acolyte' has been approved if we want to go ahead with it - but, if the general feeling is that it isn't welcomed, we don't have to.
[12:23:30 PM] V: And the same goes for everything else.
[12:23:34 PM] V:
[12:23:36 PM] V: ***
[12:23:58 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: ool
[12:24:01 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: cool
[12:24:17 PM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Mitchell" ***
[12:24:23 PM] Mitchell: CLERGY MEETINGS
[12:24:27 PM] Mitchell: SHOULD ALWAYS
[12:24:31 PM] Mitchell: COME BEFORE
[12:24:36 PM] Mitchell: COUNCIL MEETINGS
[12:24:38 PM] Mitchell: ***
[12:24:46 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: we could do without the caps
[12:25:09 PM] *** Mitchell has left ***
[12:25:27 PM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Bruno" ***
[12:25:32 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: alright
[12:25:37 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Bruno you are up
[12:25:43 PM] Bruno: Thanks Ros
[12:26:27 PM] Bruno: V left it very clear, we are here to help and make TOTJO a better place for all
[12:26:51 PM] Bruno: Therefore, I suggest that we postpone this issue within one month. Until then all members of the clergy can think of better names and suggest to a new vote by the synod.
[12:27:18 PM] Bruno: And so we move to the next subject of the meeting if this is already exhausted
[12:27:27 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: thanks
[12:27:44 PM] Bruno: I'm done
[12:27:52 PM] Carlos: (y)
[12:28:22 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: now carlos and then akkarin and then we are moving on
[12:28:25 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: ok
[12:28:33 PM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Carlos" ***
[12:28:41 PM] Carlos: I'm good for moving on I have written em down for later!
[12:28:57 PM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Akkarin" ***
[12:29:49 PM] Michael Kitchen: In regards to some of steam's earlier points.
[12:30:52 PM] Michael Kitchen: No we cannot change the actions of the Clergy by just changing the names, but we aren’t just changing names. The other three points on the agenda of this meeting and the previous changes already been implemented throughout Clergy indicate this is part of a more broader process rather than nit-picking.
[12:31:33 PM] Carlos: I concur
[12:32:05 PM | Removed 12:33:09 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: This message has been removed.
[12:32:14 PM | Removed 12:33:26 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: This message has been removed.
[12:33:47 PM] Michael Kitchen: Continued..If there’s misunderstanding from within then we need to ensure our sources of information within the community are as explanatory as possible. If a name prompts an “outsider” to ask questions then we can answer them. If a name carries with it presumptions then those presumptions can be affirmed or denied when they come to us.
[12:34:09 PM] Michael Kitchen: “acolyte is nothing but a follower who aids in ceremonial matters”
But you just defined an Acolyte as that. Acolytes will be what we make them into. If we make them into waterboys then they will be water boys, but if we make them into a group of Clergy who are able to contributed in, say, clergy meetings or in sermons and services, then that’s what they’ll be.
[12:35:09 PM] Michael Kitchen: (finished) sorry
[12:35:24 PM] Carlos: That in itself will be a bit of a ego shot to some... understand?
[12:35:44 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: we are now going to move on
[12:35:55 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: to the Clerical Handbook
[12:36:58 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Training-material/112075-creating-a-clerical-handbook
[12:37:12 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: this is now a requirement for those seeking ordination
[12:37:28 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: for those of us already ordained, we still need to do it
[12:37:39 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: anyone have anything to add?
[12:38:11 PM] Carlos: Will a video of the book be OK when complied?
[12:38:31 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: wait a minute guys
[12:38:37 PM | Edited 12:38:58 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: you forgot the procedure
[12:39:01 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: please please message me
[12:39:51 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: A video is fine
[12:40:09 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: a book is fine
[12:40:14 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: a pdf is fine
[12:40:24 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: just some proof that you completed it
[12:40:35 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: please see my response in the same thread
[12:42:23 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: if there are no further comments, we can move on to the next topic
[12:42:37 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Vacancy: Assistant Pastor to the Seminary
[12:43:16 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Sorry, someone has a question
[12:43:24 PM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Carlos" ***
[12:43:35 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: the floor is yours
[12:44:05 PM] Carlos: What are the qualifications and responsibilities of this position and who can apply for it and when
[12:44:24 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Let me get the announcement draft
[12:45:40 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: The Synod is currently is looking for the right candidate for the position of Assistant Pastor for the Seminary and welcomes applications from interested Clergy members.


Job Description: The Assistant Pastor for the Seminary is responsible for engagement and intake of new Seminarians (clerical trainees), assistance with their ongoing studies, and tracking the completion of Seminarian’s training journals. Additionally the Assistant Pastor for the Seminary assists in the procedural functioning and services of the Clergy including producing Sermons and providing pastoral care.


Prerequisites for Application:
Must be a member of the Clergy (Licensed Minister or above)
Must be in good standing with the Temple

How to Apply: To apply please send a message to Rosalyn J or Cabur Senaar
You may, if you wish, explain why you would like to fill this position.

Closing Date for Applications:
Enquiries regarding the position or the application process should be sent in a PM to Cabur or Rosalyn J
[12:46:15 PM] Carlos: Thanks
[12:46:41 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: oh sorry
[12:46:58 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: This position is available to ordained Clergy only
[12:47:05 PM] Carlos: Ok
[12:47:09 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: there is a mistake in the draft
[12:47:18 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: it should be Deacon or higher
[12:48:37 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: I'll be sure to make the announcement changes
[12:50:32 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Any other questions/comments (please pm me here
[12:52:13 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: ok seeing none, lets move to topic #4
[12:52:26 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Questions/Suggestions
[12:53:50 PM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Bruno" ***
[12:54:00 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Bruno has a question/suggestion
[12:54:15 PM] Bruno: I bring back my previus suggestion
[12:54:57 PM] Bruno: members of the clergy can think of better names and suggest to a vote by the synod.
[12:55:05 PM] Bruno: done
[12:55:34 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: any other suggestions/questions
[12:56:06 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: I second Bruno's suggestion.
[12:56:11 PM] Snowy Aftermath: same
[12:56:28 PM] Carlos: (y) (ok)
[12:56:36 PM | Edited 12:57:15 PM] Alexandre Orion: :^)
[12:57:00 PM] V: Was this in regard to all the names or just the Acolyte name?
[12:57:11 PM] Snowy Aftermath: for me it is all of them.
[12:57:31 PM] Snowy Aftermath: "guide" isn't something people will take seriously, or even know what it is.
[12:57:46 PM] Alexandre Orion: what does that mean ?
[12:57:52 PM] Alexandre Orion: to "take seriously" ?
[12:58:08 PM] Alexandre Orion: there is a reason why these terms were chosen
[12:58:35 PM] Snowy Aftermath: Priest, Minister, Deacon... these are terms people know and imply a level of education
[12:58:37 PM] Alexandre Orion: a reason, well reasoned by much research into comparative and historical religion
[12:58:48 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: Mostly Acolyte and Magister for me, but if something more apt than Guide comes up, that's fine too.
[12:58:54 PM] Alexandre Orion: that is why we are putting them aside
[12:58:56 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: to speak to your point snowy
[12:59:11 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: people "learned" to take those titles seriously
[12:59:32 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: if they don't "learn" its a conglomeration of letters
[12:59:46 PM] Snowy Aftermath: My ministry... all of our ministries, are to people outside of the website as well. They shouldn't have to ask for a definition to know what we are.
[1:00:04 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: why?
[1:00:12 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: we are a new religion
[1:00:37 PM] Snowy Aftermath: It's an extra layer of frustration that has to happen between us and getting to the business of actually helping
[1:00:47 PM] Snowy Aftermath: "minister" has no religion
[1:01:06 PM] Snowy Aftermath: we can adopt that one and it expresses the idea without looking like something we aren't
[1:01:17 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Ive never, in all my ministry had to explain what I do
[1:01:22 PM] Proteus: If they care enough, they will inquire about what they are approaching so they are not doing it blindly
[1:01:26 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: they ask for help, I do it
[1:02:33 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: wow
[1:02:35 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: guys
[1:02:39 PM] Snowy Aftermath: try to see my point of view instead of telling me I'm wrong, that's all I'm saying.
[1:02:41 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: Minister is fairly neutral. For that matter, there are Buddhist 'priests' are there not?
[1:02:51 PM] Snowy Aftermath: yes, Darren, there are.
[1:03:09 PM] Proteus: A less recognized title will induce necessary inquiry
[1:03:21 PM] Snowy Aftermath: or push people away entirely.
[1:03:31 PM] Snowy Aftermath: because they don't understand.
[1:03:50 PM] Snowy Aftermath: I'm shutting up now.
[1:03:56 PM] Alexandre Orion: it doesn't matter
[1:04:00 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Carlos would like to Speak
[1:04:15 PM] Alexandre Orion: if someone leaves because they don't like how we call ourselves
[1:04:19 PM] Proteus: It also helps to ward off misunderstood assumptions attached to recognized titles
[1:04:24 PM] Carlos: Yes
[1:04:27 PM | Edited 1:04:49 PM] Alexandre Orion: then we can't help them anyway
[1:04:37 PM] Snowy Aftermath: wow.
[1:05:59 PM] Alexandre Orion: okay ... I didn't mean to be so shocking there
[1:06:00 PM] Alexandre Orion: but
[1:06:17 PM] Alexandre Orion: what I meant is, people are looking for something new
[1:06:21 PM] Carlos: We are privileged to be in a time when we our very own faith is being written here. Not to many new things have emerged as far as forward thinking... we as Jedi are the gifted few who can say we r writing a new system a better...
[1:06:23 PM] Bruno: well we have time to think on it
[1:06:26 PM] Alexandre Orion: and something familiar in the same box
[1:06:44 PM] Alexandre Orion: if it is the same old stuff, that will be invalidating
[1:06:59 PM] Alexandre Orion: if it isn't something they recognise, that isn't credible
[1:07:02 PM] Alexandre Orion: well ....
[1:07:12 PM] Alexandre Orion: that presents a double-bind
[1:07:19 PM] Alexandre Orion: for them more than for us
[1:07:21 PM] Alexandre Orion: so
[1:08:13 PM] Alexandre Orion: the reason why we were changing the titles was to get rid of 500 years of image that these terms have built up on them
[1:08:44 PM] Alexandre Orion: there is a lot of post-modern theory in this move
[1:09:40 PM] Alexandre Orion: when one hears of a priest, there is already a "knowledge" of what that person does, what the interaction with that person - the priest - is going to be like
[1:10:14 PM] Alexandre Orion: and that - even before, during and after the 'title' - is going to colour the entire relationship
[1:11:05 PM] Alexandre Orion: that, in and of itself, is what will present the double-bind of 'new and interesting'/'familiar and threatening'
[1:12:32 PM] Alexandre Orion: since its inception, the Jedi faith/way/way-of-life ... what have you... has been justifying itself as a 'real' religion
[1:12:36 PM] Alexandre Orion: it is not
[1:12:45 PM] Alexandre Orion: it is a hyper-real religion
[1:13:50 PM] Alexandre Orion: which means that it has so much image of "what religion is" on it before one ever gets around to learning about what brings about a transcendent experience
[1:14:23 PM] Alexandre Orion: and this explanation is not confined to these clerical titles
[1:14:36 PM] Snowy Aftermath: Instead of becoming weirder and weirder, making itself look freakier and more alien with strange new terms to figure out, Jediism really needs to normalize itself and become more accessible. And that is my last opinion on this issue for now.
[1:15:04 PM] Alexandre Orion: normalise it ?
[1:15:16 PM] Alexandre Orion: that is, conform to the popular images ?
[1:15:39 PM] Snowy Aftermath: not make people jump through hoops to understand what is happening from the very beginning.
[1:15:57 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: here's the thing
[1:16:01 PM] Alexandre Orion: people are jumping through hoops when they get here
[1:16:08 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: wait
[1:16:13 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: here's the thing
[1:16:49 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: If you SAY I am a Jedi or I am a Clergy member at the Temple of the Jedi Order
[1:17:00 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: when you try to do work
[1:17:09 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: you're going to get questions
[1:17:19 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: even if you say I am a minister
[1:17:46 PM] Snowy Aftermath: at least with "clergy" and "minister" we have a common understanding of what that is.
[1:18:03 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: well see, ministry doesn't speak to what we do as clergy
[1:18:04 PM] Snowy Aftermath: that isn't a hinderance.
[1:18:20 PM] Snowy Aftermath: it says "I am here because I care about you spiritually"
[1:18:29 PM] Snowy Aftermath: not "I'm here to teach you how to post something on your wall"
[1:18:37 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: what?
[1:18:43 PM] Proteus: Jumping through hoops is an inherent process of the whole deal. It's not about convenience. It's about learning (or rather unlearning), and that will always require hoops.
[1:19:09 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: I have a question. As a Deacon, I am also an Ordained Minister, correct? Under these new terms, I would be a Guide, and also an Ordained Minister. Right?
[1:19:09 PM] Snowy Aftermath: fine. I give up. Nobody is listening to what I have to say anyway. I'm not interested in being what the main group opposes anymore.
[1:19:37 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: I'm listening
[1:19:39 PM] V: Yes Darren.
[1:19:42 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: we all are
[1:19:58 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: we just have a different point of view
[1:20:07 PM] Proteus: Snowy, nobody is rejecting you. We are simply sharing thoughts on it.
[1:20:21 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: Regardless of what happens here, if someone asks, I'll still tell them I'm a minister before any specific title. As I do now.
[1:20:26 PM] Snowy Aftermath: saying "you're jumping though hoops, what's another one" is a terrible point of view I'm sorry.
[1:20:58 PM] Snowy Aftermath: but I don't want to argue. I don't care anymore.
[1:21:16 PM] Proteus: Also, let's Use our smilies!
[1:21:24 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: if its important to you, you should care about it
[1:21:42 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: this is important to all of us
[1:22:02 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Bruno gave a suggestion that this change in names should be put to a vote
[1:22:13 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: so put you're suggestions in
[1:22:28 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: along with the justification for them
[1:22:36 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: and lets take it from there
[1:23:13 PM] Bruno: but we get some time to think
[1:23:14 PM] V: Darren made an important point there actually. 'Guide' (etc) is the rank, not the status. An Acolyte is still a Licensed Minister. A Guide is still an ordained Minister. It just wouldn't be what we would ordinarily be calling them within the Temple - but you would still have every right to identify yourself as such. If that makes sense...
[1:23:53 PM] Bruno: I think this names could be more linked to Star Wars
[1:24:17 PM] Carlos: More to a temple setting maybe?
[1:24:33 PM] Bruno: some race do cult to the Force
[1:25:02 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: In that case, 'acolyte' definitely has a Sith association.
[1:25:12 PM] Bruno: see
[1:25:27 PM] Carlos: Hmm
[1:25:41 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: so the meeting has been going on for 2 and a half hours
[1:25:48 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: much as I love you guys
[1:25:55 PM] Carlos: And I'm loving it!!!!
[1:26:11 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: I'm sure we all have things to do with our day
[1:26:32 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Let's adjourn the meeting for now
[1:26:49 PM] Carlos: *waves!
[1:27:15 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: would anyone like to lead us in the creed?
[1:27:37 PM] V: Shall I?
[1:27:47 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: yay!!!!
[1:27:56 PM] V:
[1:28:08 PM] V: If you'd like to repeat after me...
[1:28:16 PM] V: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
[1:28:25 PM] Bart: I am a Jedi, an insturment of peace;
[1:28:29 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
[1:28:29 PM] Proteus: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace ;
[1:28:33 PM] Carlos: I am a Jedi and a instrument of peace!
[1:28:45 PM] Snowy Aftermath: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace
[1:28:45 PM] Michael Kitchen: I am a Jedi, an instrument of Peace
[1:28:59 PM] V: Where there is hatred I shall bring love;
[1:29:05 PM] Carlos: Where there is hatred I shall bring love
[1:29:10 PM] Bart: Where there is hatered I shall bring love;
[1:29:13 PM] Snowy Aftermath: Where there is hatred, I shall bring love
[1:29:16 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: Where there is hatred I shall bring love;
[1:29:23 PM] Proteus: Where there is hatred I shall bring love ;
[1:29:43 PM] V: Where there is injury, pardon;
[1:29:47 PM] Carlos: Where there is injury... pardon
[1:29:51 PM] Snowy Aftermath: Where there is injury, pardon
[1:29:53 PM] Bart: Where there is injury, pardon;
[1:29:53 PM] Alexandre Orion: Where there is injury ... pardon
[1:29:53 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: Where there is injury, pardon;
[1:29:56 PM] Proteus: Where there is injury, pardon ;
[1:30:06 PM] V: Where there is doubt, faith;
[1:30:12 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: Where there is doubt, faith;
[1:30:15 PM] Alexandre Orion: Where there is doubt, faith ;
[1:30:15 PM] Bart: Where there is doupt, faith;
[1:30:17 PM] Carlos: Where there is doubt faith!
[1:30:18 PM] Proteus: Where there is doubt, faith ;
[1:30:34 PM] Snowy Aftermath: Where there is doubt, faith
[1:30:40 PM] V: Where there is despair, hope;
[1:30:43 PM] Carlos: Where there is despair hope
[1:30:47 PM] Bart: Where there is despair, hope;
[1:30:48 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: Where there is despair, hope;
[1:30:50 PM] Proteus: Where there is despair, hope ;
[1:30:54 PM] Snowy Aftermath: Where there is despair, hope
[1:30:54 PM] Alexandre Orion: Where there is despair, hope ;
[1:31:05 PM] V: Where there is darkness, light;
[1:31:12 PM] Snowy Aftermath: Where there is darkness, light
[1:31:13 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: Where there is darkness, light;
[1:31:15 PM] Proteus: Where there is darkness, light ;
[1:31:16 PM] Alexandre Orion: Where there is darkness, light ;
[1:31:18 PM] Carlos: Where there is darkness LIGHT!
[1:31:25 PM] Bart: Where there is darkness, light;
[1:31:36 PM] V: And where there is sadness, joy.
[1:31:39 PM] Carlos: And where there is sadness JOY!
[1:31:47 PM] Bart: And where there is sadness, joy.
[1:31:48 PM] Alexandre Orion: And where there is sadness, Joy.
[1:31:48 PM] Snowy Aftermath: Where there is sadness, joy
[1:31:49 PM] Proteus: And where there is sadness, joy ;
[1:32:01 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: And where there is sadness, joy.
[1:32:14 PM] V: I am a Jedi.
[1:32:16 PM] Alexandre Orion: I am Jedi ...
[1:32:18 PM] Proteus: I am a Jedi.
[1:32:19 PM] Snowy Aftermath: I am a jedi.
[1:32:19 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: I am a Jedi.
[1:32:19 PM] Carlos: I am A JEDI!
[1:32:19 PM] Bart: I am a Jedi.
[1:32:26 PM] V: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
[1:32:36 PM] Bart: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
[1:32:36 PM] Proteus: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console
[1:32:37 PM] Snowy Aftermath: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console
[1:32:43 PM] Alexandre Orion: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console
[1:32:50 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
[1:32:53 PM] Carlos: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console
[1:32:59 PM] V: To be understood as to understand;
[1:33:01 PM] Proteus: To be understood as to understand
[1:33:05 PM] Bart: To be understood as to understand;
[1:33:10 PM] Alexandre Orion: To be understood as to understand
[1:33:12 PM] Snowy Aftermath: To be understood as to understand
[1:33:16 PM] Carlos: To be understood as to understand
[1:33:30 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: To be understood as to understand;
[1:33:33 PM] V: To be loved as to love;
[1:33:36 PM] Alexandre Orion: To be loved as to love
[1:33:37 PM] Proteus: To be loved as to love
[1:33:38 PM] Carlos: To be LOVE As to LOVE
[1:33:41 PM] Bart: To be loved as to love;
[1:33:42 PM] Snowy Aftermath: To be loved as to love
[1:33:43 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: To be loved as to love;
[1:33:53 PM] V: For it is in giving that we receive;
[1:33:57 PM] Proteus: For it is in giving that we receive
[1:33:57 PM] Alexandre Orion: For it is giving that we receive
[1:33:59 PM] Carlos: For it is in GIVING that we create
[1:34:01 PM] Snowy Aftermath: for it is in giving that we receive
[1:34:05 PM] Bart: For it is in giving that we receive;
[1:34:10 PM] Carlos: Receive
[1:34:10 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: For it is in giving that we receive;
[1:34:16 PM] V: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
[1:34:19 PM] Alexandre Orion: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
[1:34:20 PM] Proteus: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
[1:34:21 PM] Snowy Aftermath: for it is in giving that we receive
[1:34:24 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
[1:34:26 PM] Bart: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
[1:34:34 PM] Snowy Aftermath: it is in pardoning that we are pardoned
[1:34:38 PM] V: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
[1:34:42 PM] Proteus: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life
[1:34:47 PM] Bart: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
[1:34:47 PM] Alexandre Orion: And it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life
[1:34:51 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
[1:34:55 PM] Snowy Aftermath: and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life
[1:35:08 PM] Carlos: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
[1:35:16 PM] Alexandre Orion: The Force is always with me, for I am Jedi.
[1:35:18 PM] V: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
[1:35:21 PM] Proteus: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
[1:35:22 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
[1:35:26 PM] Snowy Aftermath: the force is with me always, for I am a jedi.
[1:35:36 PM] Bart: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
[1:35:40 PM] Carlos: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life
[1:36:08 PM] Carlos: The force is always with me always for I am a Jedi
[1:36:45 PM | Edited 1:37:10 PM] V: Thank you all - and thank you very much for attending and for your input. If I could also just thank Ros for expertly steering us through 2.5 hours of discussion...
[1:36:55 PM] Snowy Aftermath: yes, ty Ros
[1:37:06 PM] Carlos: Thank you!!!
[1:37:10 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: thank you all
[1:37:17 PM] Rosalyn Johnson: Meeting adjourned
[1:37:22 PM] Darren M. Baldwin: Have a wonderful morning/afternoon/evening/night (pick one!) everyone.
[1:37:25 PM] Bart: Thank you for allowing me to be here with you!
[1:37:25 PM] Carlos: May the Living Force be with you all!
[1:37:26 PM] Proteus: Good job Sis!
[1:37:29 PM] *** Rosalyn Johnson has renamed this conversation to "TOTJO Clergy Meetings Room -Adjorned" ***

Hiya,

I just want you all to know that the point about who can apply to the Vacant position: Assistant Pastor to the Seminary, may change. The official announcement will reflect that change.

Thanks
Ros

Thanks, Ros.

Wow. What a charged meeting. :huh:

Sorry I could not attend the meeting. I was in a Chili Cook Off.

For clarification, I am required to complete a Cleric Manual for myself?

I have made several in the past so it is no problem, just making sure it is now a requirement to keep it up to date. I like the idea and think it should include the Official TOTJO ceremonies. I carry it with me because I keep some of my favorite quotes and spiritual prayers in it.

I also think the new names are unwise. I agree with most of the dissension. I would use Deacon, Missionary, and Monk. Abbot for the Pastor's rank. As we are a growing Religion, These names fit historically with our mission to spread the word. I am not however, "going to the mattresses" over this. I feel a consensus should be made.

I know I'm new but I also am not in favor of a clerical name change. I understand why the thought of change and I get that.

However when I say I'm a Licensed Minister at the Temple (I know I'm not yet...I'm just using that as an example) and present my id card/credentials at a hospital or even at the Clerk of Courts Office to apply to be recognized as a Minister to preform weddings/funerals that will hold way more weight than "I'm a Guide and I want to do a wedding." Its not about asking that poor desk clerk then to take the time to research it and then go to her supervisor and tell them that some weird person claiming to be a Jedi is out front and wants to register. That will get rejected without a second thought. Very few will bother to "contact us". They are not going to do it that second either if they decide to look.

If I tell the Hospital Administration I'm a Guide for the Jedi Order. I'll get laughed at and asked to leave. If I say Minister they understand some training has come with that and a level of respect. I have gone with my father many times to hospitals to help folks and he often has to present credentials. I know in the end its just a title change but the rest of the world will not recognize it and that will become a huge road block.

Even the ULC uses the term Licensed Minister.

Thanks guys! Please keep your ideas/ comments coming.
Also Phortis, to answer your question about the handbook, I'm not 100% sure about that. Can I get back to you in a day or two?

Here's a scheme I've been thinking about.

Licensed Minister - Licensed Minister
Deacon - Ordained Minister
Priest - Senior Minister
Bishop - Chaplain

There are also the excellent generic terms Celebrant and Officiant (which are easily combined or interchanged with Minister whenever needed to avoid confusion).

All are still 'Ministers' and would state as such for any government license etc.

Pastor - President of the Clergy
Vice Pastor - Vice President of the Clergy

And yes organizations can have more than one President. For some time I've thought Jestor should be President of Member Affairs, The Pastor should be President of Clerical Affairs and I'd change from President to President of Governmental and Legal Affairs. That's another subject of course - but we can have co-presidents.

It seems to me our Clergy does about... 10% of what ministers traditionally do, and it comprises about 10% of the actual role. It seems silly to perpetuate the idea our Clergy are or should be Ministers, because from years of practice I can say... we aren't. We won't be. And, critically, the actual community here doesn't need us to be.

Ministry is, at best, a subset of what our Clergy do. So we could say "The guides are our ministers, our mentors, our lecturers and professors, here to help in times of need and guide in times of uncertainty". And so a Guide is still a Minister, but we don't DEFINE them as Ministers... because most of the time that's not the term for what they're doing. In fact, more often than not, we're guiding.

So the move towards something different makes a lot of sense to me. If the objection is "people won't know what we do", well I'd sooner that than people assume we do stuff we don't, because of the very specific meaning of the terminology we've been using until now.

If we choose something new, less specific with less dogma attached, we define it ourselves. For all the "words mean things" ranting (every time it comes up my philosophy of language academic past twitches), our current terminology invites interpretations we don't adhere to, there isn't currently a word for what we do, and I like the suggestions.