- Posts: 1376
The Force in Scripture?
15 Feb 2019 22:03 #334323
by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic The Force in Scripture?
10 And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
Which poses another good question? Why did it have to be him? God didn't pick the tallest Israelite to fight Goliath so why not pick a slave to go against Pharaoh? Why pick someone who learned how to rule by watching the Eyptians rule over his people? Why pick someone educated in Egypt? Why pick someone who talks like Trump? If we're talking about the God of the Universe then why would we talk him in terms of limitations? Why would he be limited in his choosing? Why did it have to be a guy that was already on the run for murder? Are you supposed to be executed for murder? I guess unless your name is Moses. Then you get to be the defacto ruler.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?
12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
13 And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.
14 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
This is soooooo strange. Let's put this a different way. YHWH is practically bragging about how he's going to manipulate Pharaoh to do something he really doesn't want to do but make him also not want to do it. YHWH is going to convince Pharaoh and be "heavy" upon him but also is going to make him NOT believe. Therefore, either way it goes it looks like everything's going to plan. But then... all this power and infinite ability to subvert free will (but not in the Garden of Eden) and get the monarch of a nation to bend to your awesome power but your OWN guy... is so scared that even after you give him the "I created your mouth" pep talk (which I really dug on the Prince of Egypt movie), even after saying that he, God himself, was going to give him the words to say, Moses still so not convinced that YHWH has to send his brother along?
This is like if YHWH says... "okay, we're going to rob the bank of Satan and here's how we're gonna do it. You're gonna distract the guard and".... "hold up God. Um... I'd like to but I can't." and then God's like "Yes you can. I got this." and then you're like "I hear you. I really do and its amazing that you're even talking to me and that you chose me. However, I still can't."... and God's like (facepalm) "don't you have a brother or something?"
Of course it doesn't help if YHWH's like "well the guard might not be distracted so there's a chance he could shoot you. But if the first thing you try doesn't work then try this. If that doesn't work then try that. If that doesn't work then make sure you wear your brown britches."
When Pharaoh is finally confronted listen to how it starts off.
5 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go.
3 And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the Lord our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.
Moses: let us go so we can hold a feast.
Pharaoh: Um... I never heard of YHWH before. Why would I obey a god I haven't even heard of?
Moses: It's only 3 days. C'mon. God told us (not really. It says God met with them but it was really just Moses) he was going to make us sick or send enemies to kill us if you don't let us go so we can worship him! He's such a meanie!
That didn't go over well. Gee. I wonder why? Again... I think Pharaoh absolutely knew Moses was lying. And guess what? He was willing to take the risk of angering this God who was willing to fall upon his own people with pestilence or with war because Pharaoh knew that rhetoric wasn't directed at them but at him. The insinuation was that if their God was savage enough to do these things to his own people then he should be scared. But it was obviously said to manipulate him and if their God was real then let them prove it. Burden of proof was on them. But they had already come out the gates with multiple lies. There was no "Feast" planned.There was no "3 day sacrifice". And there was no plan for YHWH to punish them if they weren't released. These were flat out lies, just like "and Mexico will pay for it".
21 And they said unto them, The Lord look upon you, and judge; because ye have made our savour to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us.
22 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? why is it that thou hast sent me?
23 For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all.
Why does Moses go back to YHWH so soon? He hadn't even done a simple card trick yet. Was this the plan? YHWH, in chapter 6, goes back to bragging about what he's going to do to Pharaoh. And he's already making campaign promises about giving them the land of Canaan (which Canaan wasn't paying for either). Giving... I remember giving my wife a new laptop for Christmas. It didn't involve forcing her to fight the people at the store for it. That's not actually "giving".
So after failing to deliver. Moses makes YHWH's campaign promise to give them Canaan but the people aint buying it. They don't trust him either. They gave him a shot because they wanted to be free.
12 And Moses spake before the Lord, saying, Behold, the children of Israel have not hearkened unto me; how then shall Pharaoh hear me, who am of uncircumcised lips?
Moses is still doubting (according to the story)
30 And Moses said before the Lord, Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh hearken unto me?
Exodus 7
7 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
I honestly don't know who's telling more lies here, Moses or YHWH. Bring forth mine armies? What armies? The Israelites had to do their own fighting. Of course they didn't know this until they were forced to do so. Had they known they would have to fight multiple nations they probably would not have followed Moses. More deception.
But at least they (Aaron) finally do a miracle. But then they (Pharaoh's guys) do the same "miracle" and the only difference is that they fight and somehow Aaron's snake eats all the others. So.... was this a possessed snake? Why does the snake being able to eat the other snakes make a difference? Or is it to distract us from the fact that the "miracle" was duplicated? An excellent way to "harden" Pharaoh's heart is simply to be underwhelming and then blame it on him. And so even though this "trick" isn't explained all we know is that it was something the Eyptians were able to do and that makes it ultimately suspicious. God tells us that there are no other gods... period. So why are humans able to do this "trick" that God had to give Moses (and apparently Aaron because Moses was chicken) the power to do? If we accept that humans were able to do whatever this "trick" was then it doesn't matter which snake ate who. It means that they didn't need any gods or God in order to do the very same thing. And that's why Pharaoh's heart was hardened. Because whatever he knew, he knew this wasn't the work of some all powerful God that he needed to be afraid of.
Which poses another good question? Why did it have to be him? God didn't pick the tallest Israelite to fight Goliath so why not pick a slave to go against Pharaoh? Why pick someone who learned how to rule by watching the Eyptians rule over his people? Why pick someone educated in Egypt? Why pick someone who talks like Trump? If we're talking about the God of the Universe then why would we talk him in terms of limitations? Why would he be limited in his choosing? Why did it have to be a guy that was already on the run for murder? Are you supposed to be executed for murder? I guess unless your name is Moses. Then you get to be the defacto ruler.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?
12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
13 And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.
14 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
This is soooooo strange. Let's put this a different way. YHWH is practically bragging about how he's going to manipulate Pharaoh to do something he really doesn't want to do but make him also not want to do it. YHWH is going to convince Pharaoh and be "heavy" upon him but also is going to make him NOT believe. Therefore, either way it goes it looks like everything's going to plan. But then... all this power and infinite ability to subvert free will (but not in the Garden of Eden) and get the monarch of a nation to bend to your awesome power but your OWN guy... is so scared that even after you give him the "I created your mouth" pep talk (which I really dug on the Prince of Egypt movie), even after saying that he, God himself, was going to give him the words to say, Moses still so not convinced that YHWH has to send his brother along?
This is like if YHWH says... "okay, we're going to rob the bank of Satan and here's how we're gonna do it. You're gonna distract the guard and".... "hold up God. Um... I'd like to but I can't." and then God's like "Yes you can. I got this." and then you're like "I hear you. I really do and its amazing that you're even talking to me and that you chose me. However, I still can't."... and God's like (facepalm) "don't you have a brother or something?"
Of course it doesn't help if YHWH's like "well the guard might not be distracted so there's a chance he could shoot you. But if the first thing you try doesn't work then try this. If that doesn't work then try that. If that doesn't work then make sure you wear your brown britches."
When Pharaoh is finally confronted listen to how it starts off.
5 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go.
3 And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the Lord our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.
Moses: let us go so we can hold a feast.
Pharaoh: Um... I never heard of YHWH before. Why would I obey a god I haven't even heard of?
Moses: It's only 3 days. C'mon. God told us (not really. It says God met with them but it was really just Moses) he was going to make us sick or send enemies to kill us if you don't let us go so we can worship him! He's such a meanie!
That didn't go over well. Gee. I wonder why? Again... I think Pharaoh absolutely knew Moses was lying. And guess what? He was willing to take the risk of angering this God who was willing to fall upon his own people with pestilence or with war because Pharaoh knew that rhetoric wasn't directed at them but at him. The insinuation was that if their God was savage enough to do these things to his own people then he should be scared. But it was obviously said to manipulate him and if their God was real then let them prove it. Burden of proof was on them. But they had already come out the gates with multiple lies. There was no "Feast" planned.There was no "3 day sacrifice". And there was no plan for YHWH to punish them if they weren't released. These were flat out lies, just like "and Mexico will pay for it".
21 And they said unto them, The Lord look upon you, and judge; because ye have made our savour to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us.
22 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? why is it that thou hast sent me?
23 For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all.
Why does Moses go back to YHWH so soon? He hadn't even done a simple card trick yet. Was this the plan? YHWH, in chapter 6, goes back to bragging about what he's going to do to Pharaoh. And he's already making campaign promises about giving them the land of Canaan (which Canaan wasn't paying for either). Giving... I remember giving my wife a new laptop for Christmas. It didn't involve forcing her to fight the people at the store for it. That's not actually "giving".
So after failing to deliver. Moses makes YHWH's campaign promise to give them Canaan but the people aint buying it. They don't trust him either. They gave him a shot because they wanted to be free.
12 And Moses spake before the Lord, saying, Behold, the children of Israel have not hearkened unto me; how then shall Pharaoh hear me, who am of uncircumcised lips?
Moses is still doubting (according to the story)
30 And Moses said before the Lord, Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh hearken unto me?
Exodus 7
7 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
I honestly don't know who's telling more lies here, Moses or YHWH. Bring forth mine armies? What armies? The Israelites had to do their own fighting. Of course they didn't know this until they were forced to do so. Had they known they would have to fight multiple nations they probably would not have followed Moses. More deception.
But at least they (Aaron) finally do a miracle. But then they (Pharaoh's guys) do the same "miracle" and the only difference is that they fight and somehow Aaron's snake eats all the others. So.... was this a possessed snake? Why does the snake being able to eat the other snakes make a difference? Or is it to distract us from the fact that the "miracle" was duplicated? An excellent way to "harden" Pharaoh's heart is simply to be underwhelming and then blame it on him. And so even though this "trick" isn't explained all we know is that it was something the Eyptians were able to do and that makes it ultimately suspicious. God tells us that there are no other gods... period. So why are humans able to do this "trick" that God had to give Moses (and apparently Aaron because Moses was chicken) the power to do? If we accept that humans were able to do whatever this "trick" was then it doesn't matter which snake ate who. It means that they didn't need any gods or God in order to do the very same thing. And that's why Pharaoh's heart was hardened. Because whatever he knew, he knew this wasn't the work of some all powerful God that he needed to be afraid of.
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