Rogue One and the Return of Reverence

Avalonslight wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

Kyrin clearly didn't actually read my post, but replied anyhow

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Well, Jedi are irreparably corrupt, and maintained a stranglehold and monopoly on the Force, if you want to insist on such a crude, incorrect, and obviously biased metaphor.

Oh rearry??
Well your incorruptable heros also used jedi mind tricks, aggresive negotiation not unlike gunboat diplomacy and outright manipulation to get their way. Case in point is qui-gons manipulation of dice to change the output of a bet for Anakin. Are these "Jedi" you hold in an incorruptable reguard really those all benevolent characters or could they maybe, possibly be concieved of as heros to some but villians to others?

You maybe wanna give that a second go?

And maybe pull out a dictionary in the process?

Immediate dismissal to the grammer police. Your on the internet, babe, get over it.

@steamboat,

What second go would you like? I agree with your idea that the force has no will. It is only the will of men that manifest. In this we can go against the natural order of the universe or not. And in that we can percieve that the universe will either retaliate against that or not. But to possess the ability to actually manipulate that will to our own means is a very catholic paradigm. I have always found it fascinating that two opposing forces in a military conflict can pray to the very same percieved god and both sides be convinced that that god is on their side.

The force takes no sides. It is only the subjective opinions of men that create sides and it is also those same men that create false hierarchies of control and illusions of acceptance or judgement. As well it is men, not the force, that create false aspects of reverence verses control.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Avalonslight wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

Kyrin clearly didn't actually read my post, but replied anyhow

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Well, Jedi are irreparably corrupt, and maintained a stranglehold and monopoly on the Force, if you want to insist on such a crude, incorrect, and obviously biased metaphor.

Oh rearry??
Well your incorruptable heros also used jedi mind tricks, aggresive negotiation not unlike gunboat diplomacy and outright manipulation to get their way. Case in point is qui-gons manipulation of dice to change the output of a bet for Anakin. Are these "Jedi" you hold in an incorruptable reguard really those all benevolent characters or could they maybe, possibly be concieved of as heros to some but villians to others?

You maybe wanna give that a second go?

And maybe pull out a dictionary in the process?

Immediate dismissal to the grammer police. Your on the internet, babe, get over it.

@steamboat,

What second go would you like? I agree with your idea that the force has no will. It is only the will of men that manifest. In this we can go against the natural order of the universe or not. And in that we can percieve that the universe will either retaliate against that or not. But to possess the ability to actually manipulate that will to our own means is a very catholic paradigm. I have always found it fascinating that two opposing forces in a military conflict can pray to the very same percieved god and both sides be convinced that that god is on their side.

The force takes no sides. It is only the subjective opinions of men that create sides and it is also those same men that create false hierarchies of control and illusions of acceptance or judgement. As well it is men, not the force, that create false aspects of reverence verses control.

That wasn't a grammar police moment, Kyrin. That was a suggestion on what you needed for the second approach Steam said, since you're clearly misunderstanding a key phrase in his post. But hey, you wanna be prickly and not take it, be my guest. So totally done dealing with you.

steamboat28 wrote:

Potential Actual Film Spoilers

Senan wrote: ... without having the ability to manipulate it toward his own ends.

I don't know that he didn't, honestly. There's a line of thinking in most energy-working and magickal circles that intent shapes will, and will shapes the world. He could have had just as much potential as any average Jedi, and just never realized it because his training wasn't as intense. He relied on the Force subconsciously, and it responded. That's still manipulation of the Force, whether or not we or even Chirrut see it that way.

The only way we'll know if Chirrut was doing so or wasn't would be for Disney Lucasfilms/arts/whatever it is these days, to provide us a greater background on the history of the organization he was a part of prior to its destruction. My feeling on the matter is that given Chirrut's apparent age, he should have been discovered by the Jedi Order, especially given the apparent significance his home site seems to have to the Order. I would also think that if he had been truly force sensitive, that particular order would have made sure he got to the Jedi Order... And, if we examine the Empire's actions on other stories (Rebels, books, EU and canon both), I think someone who was force sensitive within Imperial territory would have been dealt with by the Empire.

Then again, it could be that his force sensitivity was so extremely mild that you're completely correct. Either way, we won't know that unless we get a background on both the location and that order. Which frankly, I'm dying for us to get. I love the fact that we're getting new aspects of the Sw myth and I want them to give us more about it.

The whole thing did not sit well with me, I felt that the movie was trying to imply the Force actually takes sides, or that it is some sort of deity to pray to.

Magnus Staar wrote: The whole thing did not sit well with me, I felt that the movie was trying to imply the Force actually takes sides, or that it is some sort of deity to pray to.

Canonically, it does, and it is.

I think it is open to interpretation since that is all we can do anyway.

Avalonslight wrote: That wasn't a grammar police moment, Kyrin. That was a suggestion on what you needed for the second approach Steam said, since you're clearly misunderstanding a key phrase in his post. But hey, you wanna be prickly and not take it, be my guest. So totally done dealing with you.

What??

LOL, ok I readily admit you have me confused? What key phrase am I misunderstanding that I need a dictionary to better understand?

steamboat28 wrote:

Magnus Staar wrote: The whole thing did not sit well with me, I felt that the movie was trying to imply the Force actually takes sides, or that it is some sort of deity to pray to.

Canonically, it does, and it is.

There's that. But there's also the fact that this is just one organizations interpretation of the force, within the SW mythos. Honestly, it's no different than Jediism and the force if you think about it. My opinion of what the force is is going to be different than yours, which is different than .... Alex's for example, who has a different one from the guy next door. If we can have that many different views and thoughts on the matter in a site with probably less than 300 actively posting members (total shot in the dark there), then it totally makes sense that in a galaxy full of people, there would be organizations or individuals who felt the Force was more of an active deity, and there would be those who felt it was some sort of energy field that one could harness based upon the count of symbiotic creatures living in their blood.

I, for once, didn't see the movie taking it that direction though. It no more turned the Force into an active deity than any other film in the series. There's constant references to the "Force's will" and the Force being with someone as they complete the task. The only difference here is you have a blind monk actively turning it into a mantra for himself during a rather difficult time. Dedication to what might be considered a type of extreme.

Reverence has been a hot word on my tongue and fingertips lately, especially how it appeals to the shinto context.

Revereance and gratititude can arguably be consodered central to Shinto, and I love shinto becuiase of its naturalness. Sometimes it just 'feels' right. And sometimes, judging by what alot have posted, Star Wars AGAIN has made us "feel right". :laugh:

Thanks for sharing this Alethea;)

I wholeheartedly agree that this was a pivotal play for the observing the Force as the basis for an authentic spirituality, especially Jediism/ Jedi Realism. So much so, I wrote about how this sense of reverance has inspired me in my journal, and hopefully this plucks a chord with someone else..

Let me repost it here for those who may not have access:

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LITURGICAL ELEMENT: The Jedi Vow

I was finally able to locate a 'script' from Rogue One, but I'm not sure if it is exact- I could have sworn Chirrut Imwe says to let them "...pass in peace..." three times (3x), but it says otherwise here.

"Let them pass in peace!
Let them pass in peace.
The Force is with me,
and I am with the Force.
And I fear nothing,
for all is as the Force wills it."
-from, www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_s...ne-a-star-wars-story

Either way, it still reminds me of two very close practices to me- the Dine/Navajo blessing called the Beauty Way, and the repetition of "..Shanti.." at the end of yoga. Although it exists in many translations, it basically asks for one to "move in peace" in all directions- like a Daka or Dakini (Khechari), a Skywalker. LOL- definately not coincidence.

Looking between the lines, I noticed immediately that this was the first thing said by an observant of the Force (excluding Jyn's parents, if they were Force-adepts...), and it struck an immediate chord with my study of (Tantrik) ritual syntax- it is a statement of 'faith', like the 'aspiration of enlightenment", also known as "raising bodhicitta".

Bodhicitta is super super important part of Buddhism; it's what makes a (Mahayana) Buddhist a (Mahayana) Buddhist, versus, say, a Sravaka or a Pratyeka.

The crux of a Buddhist's path is that they not only learn and practice the Dharma, they SHARE the Dharma, and allow it to pass into their and those they encounter live's.

It is also of such importance that it is one of- if not THE first part of traditional Buddhist liturgies.

DAMN DANIEL.:blink:

First mention: first liturgical element.

There is another discussion about how Bodhicitta is the Cause, Path, and Result of Buddhist practice, and that is important for me here too.

In this example, it helps solidify an understanding of this piece as an initital element of a Jedi Liturgy. Here, the aspiration of Enlightenment can be seen as the initial impulse (hence, "Basis") of any further exploration or demonstration of said impulse- hence PATH: cultivating the aspiration of enlightenment IS the Buddhist Path.

"Stupid is as stupid does":: "Enlightenment is as enlightenment does.

The fruit of one's practice, the RESULT, is more Bodhicitta, or an ever-deepening realization of one's aspiration.

Likewise, I feel like this orientating verse acts in a similar fashion for any sort of "Jedi Vow", whether as a single statement of intent or in the taking of the certain vows of virtue, like those of the Jedi Code. (Yes, I do think the Jedi Code can be turned into a vow, but I will write more on that in the future hopefully:) ).

Bringing it full circle, I feel extremely fortuitous for this "gift" from the mythos. Since I have been given the Beauty Way chant, I have always felt inspired to make it the cardinal point of "ritual departure" (from the profane to the sacred) for my practice. I have been looking for a way to replace the Buddhist Aspiration for Enlightenment with a something of a more Jedi-nature, and it seems it was just poured into my fairly empty and waiting Jedi-coffee mug.

Thus, I will include what I come to see as the Jedi Vow, into my infant liturgy.

"May I pass in peace,
May I pass in peace,
(May I pass in peace)
The Force is with me,
and I am with the Force.
(I) fear nothing,
for all is as the Force wills it."

I like the word "move" (as in 'Meditation: any MOVEMENT towards the Center'), so I may replace "pass". I was also thinking maybe repeating the line 3x, but each verb be different: Go, Move, Pass, to symbolize the three states of Birth, Life, and Death. (This has lots of esoteric potential!) Shanti is said 3x, as well as any mantra or the Bodhicitta mantra is recited 3x, but I could just recite the whole thing (with two lines).

Lots of inspiration, lots of ideas.

Either way, again Star Wars finds a way to help me connect.

Om Shanti.

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