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General Assembly of the Clergy July 8, 2023 10:00 AM Pacific
- Alexandre Orion
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- om mani padme hum
08 Jul 2023 07:27 - 08 Jul 2023 07:37 #373467
by Alexandre Orion
Be a philosopher ; but, amidst all your philosophy, be still a man.
~ David Hume
Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
~ Henri Bergson
Replied by Alexandre Orion on topic General Assembly of the Clergy July 8, 2023 10:00 AM Pacific
I admire the way this is going. Thank you, Odin ! 
Your contention with both Christianity and New Age (or at the very least, their associated terminology) is effectively that common terrain we were looking for. Even when I held the functionary office of Pastor here, we acknowledged the ponderous connotations in "religious" terms - even the new-agey uptakes on Eastern religions/philosophies that became profitably westernised after the Second World War - how those hinder understanding more than foster it (cf. Saussure, entre autres).
You've done well with this. We hadn't considered putting up Schopenhauer's notion of the Will in the place of that of Spirit, but it fits. Let's pursue this ...
It is also very apt to put forward the fundamental reality that this involves continual, perpetual training/learning. It isn't like getting a diploma and graduating -- we have to constantly work towards our ideals though we'll never achieve perfection in them.
The only hesitation with your proposed version and its explanation (which is very sound, by the way !) is that it may be a bit reductive to try to get rid of the physical body from the Teaching. It is a particularly insideous abberation of common language that we have bodies rather than that we indeed are bodies (cf. Merleau-Ponty). We probably need to keep that in there somehow, since our thought, feeling and expression of the Will are dependent on our corporeal embodiement. Moreover, we must train/exercise/care for our bodies even via those thoughts, feelings and hopefully in accordance with the Will. It gets a bit reflexively circular...
Thus, let's continue this exploration. It feels like we're going in the right direction.
Please thank your friend from us as well. This input has been quite valuable.
Your contention with both Christianity and New Age (or at the very least, their associated terminology) is effectively that common terrain we were looking for. Even when I held the functionary office of Pastor here, we acknowledged the ponderous connotations in "religious" terms - even the new-agey uptakes on Eastern religions/philosophies that became profitably westernised after the Second World War - how those hinder understanding more than foster it (cf. Saussure, entre autres).
You've done well with this. We hadn't considered putting up Schopenhauer's notion of the Will in the place of that of Spirit, but it fits. Let's pursue this ...
It is also very apt to put forward the fundamental reality that this involves continual, perpetual training/learning. It isn't like getting a diploma and graduating -- we have to constantly work towards our ideals though we'll never achieve perfection in them.
The only hesitation with your proposed version and its explanation (which is very sound, by the way !) is that it may be a bit reductive to try to get rid of the physical body from the Teaching. It is a particularly insideous abberation of common language that we have bodies rather than that we indeed are bodies (cf. Merleau-Ponty). We probably need to keep that in there somehow, since our thought, feeling and expression of the Will are dependent on our corporeal embodiement. Moreover, we must train/exercise/care for our bodies even via those thoughts, feelings and hopefully in accordance with the Will. It gets a bit reflexively circular...
Thus, let's continue this exploration. It feels like we're going in the right direction.
Please thank your friend from us as well. This input has been quite valuable.
Be a philosopher ; but, amidst all your philosophy, be still a man.
~ David Hume
Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
~ Henri Bergson
Last edit: 08 Jul 2023 07:37 by Alexandre Orion.
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- Carlos.Martinez3
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- Senior Ordained Clergy Person
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- Alexandre Orion
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- Council Member
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- Senior Ordained Clergy Person
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- om mani padme hum
08 Jul 2023 14:45 - 08 Jul 2023 14:51 #373478
by Alexandre Orion
This is going to take some effortful "pursuing" though. Although the Will in the German romantic transcendental idealism (Schopenhauer didn't stick with Kant either) is very much alligned with our notion of the Force. This is also a way of illustrating the omnipresent risk of the Dark Side...
Yet, we ought deviate from The World as Will and Representation, especially with regard to Schopenhauer's conclusions - in and about when he pivoted from philosophy to mysticism - as for him (et al.) one ends up revolted by the Will. This is not unreasonable, but perhaps only reason-able (cf. Critique of Pure Reason, Kant) Let's not let ourselves become revolted by the Force.
I don't think this will be an unsurmountable obstacle, after all, there have been many developments in the 200 years thence. We're already on the right path by considering the intellect (thought) as complementary with feeling, which 18th-19th century writers were hostile to. Even Schopenhauer treated compassion as an intellectual result. So, anyway, let's take it further along this path and see where we end up.
Be a philosopher ; but, amidst all your philosophy, be still a man.
~ David Hume
Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
~ Henri Bergson
Replied by Alexandre Orion on topic General Assembly of the Clergy July 8, 2023 10:00 AM Pacific
You've done well with this. We hadn't considered putting up Schopenhauer's notion of the Will in the place of that of Spirit, but it fits. Let's pursue this ...
This is going to take some effortful "pursuing" though. Although the Will in the German romantic transcendental idealism (Schopenhauer didn't stick with Kant either) is very much alligned with our notion of the Force. This is also a way of illustrating the omnipresent risk of the Dark Side...
Yet, we ought deviate from The World as Will and Representation, especially with regard to Schopenhauer's conclusions - in and about when he pivoted from philosophy to mysticism - as for him (et al.) one ends up revolted by the Will. This is not unreasonable, but perhaps only reason-able (cf. Critique of Pure Reason, Kant) Let's not let ourselves become revolted by the Force.
I don't think this will be an unsurmountable obstacle, after all, there have been many developments in the 200 years thence. We're already on the right path by considering the intellect (thought) as complementary with feeling, which 18th-19th century writers were hostile to. Even Schopenhauer treated compassion as an intellectual result. So, anyway, let's take it further along this path and see where we end up.
Be a philosopher ; but, amidst all your philosophy, be still a man.
~ David Hume
Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
~ Henri Bergson
Last edit: 08 Jul 2023 14:51 by Alexandre Orion.
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08 Jul 2023 17:54 #373480
by Locksley
Thank you, I'm pleased that I was able to actually offer a constructive element to my initial deconstructive points!
Regarding the physical nature of the body. The term "corporeal" is one I've found useful for this context.
Possibly: "Jedi comprehend that we are beings of thought, feeling, and will, who flourish corporally within the Force through self-aware action and lifelong learning."
I also considered: "Jedi comprehend that we are corporeal beings of thought, feeling, and will, who flourish corporally within the Force through self-aware action and lifelong learning." But this seemed to limit our reality to something bordering on an overt atomistic view, something I've also sought to avoid. In something like a Teaching, out there fore everyone, there's so much that can change with just the order of the words, or a change in form.
As I mentioned earlier, I can see the reasons why "Incarnated" was chosen to suit this need, though "Incarnated" carries the potential suggestion of an Outside "incarnator" and this is something to be avoided. My qualms about that word are, ultimately, minimal. These teachings need not be perfect at the get-go, and revision and exploration (and, more importantly, expansion of definition through apocryphal documents) should help it all make sense.
I have to turn my attention elsewhere for the time being, but I'm hopeful that the points I've raised have ultimately been fruitful for the discussion being had today by the Clergy.
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away. -- J. Michael Straczynski, Babylon 5
Replied by Locksley on topic General Assembly of the Clergy July 8, 2023 10:00 AM Pacific
Alexandre Orion wrote: I admire the way this is going. Thank you, Odin !
The only hesitation with your proposed version and its explanation (which is very sound, by the way !) is that it may be a bit reductive to try to get rid of the physical body from the Teaching.
Thank you, I'm pleased that I was able to actually offer a constructive element to my initial deconstructive points!
Regarding the physical nature of the body. The term "corporeal" is one I've found useful for this context.
Possibly: "Jedi comprehend that we are beings of thought, feeling, and will, who flourish corporally within the Force through self-aware action and lifelong learning."
I also considered: "Jedi comprehend that we are corporeal beings of thought, feeling, and will, who flourish corporally within the Force through self-aware action and lifelong learning." But this seemed to limit our reality to something bordering on an overt atomistic view, something I've also sought to avoid. In something like a Teaching, out there fore everyone, there's so much that can change with just the order of the words, or a change in form.
As I mentioned earlier, I can see the reasons why "Incarnated" was chosen to suit this need, though "Incarnated" carries the potential suggestion of an Outside "incarnator" and this is something to be avoided. My qualms about that word are, ultimately, minimal. These teachings need not be perfect at the get-go, and revision and exploration (and, more importantly, expansion of definition through apocryphal documents) should help it all make sense.
I have to turn my attention elsewhere for the time being, but I'm hopeful that the points I've raised have ultimately been fruitful for the discussion being had today by the Clergy.
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away. -- J. Michael Straczynski, Babylon 5
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08 Jul 2023 19:59 - 08 Jul 2023 20:27 #373481
by RosalynJ
Pax Per Ministerium
Replied by RosalynJ on topic General Assembly of the Clergy July 8, 2023 10:00 AM Pacific
The Meeting Minutes are below. Thank you all
Warning: Spoiler!
Pax Per Ministerium
Last edit: 08 Jul 2023 20:27 by RosalynJ.
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08 Jul 2023 20:20 #373483
by RosalynJ
Pax Per Ministerium
Replied by RosalynJ on topic General Assembly of the Clergy July 8, 2023 10:00 AM Pacific
ooooh very good options
Ive always considered that in addition to wholeness, intergrity means to be consistent. Not to be a weed tossed by the wind and such
Ive always considered that in addition to wholeness, intergrity means to be consistent. Not to be a weed tossed by the wind and such
Pax Per Ministerium
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