would you kill one person to save five?

13 Mar 2023 19:58 #371878 by Zero

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13 Mar 2023 20:06 - 13 Mar 2023 20:09 #371879 by Rosalyn J
I would say yes under the first variation of the trolley problem.
The initial trolley problem does not allow for choice.

But a variation of the trolley problem allows you to push an oblivious person from a bridge. Obviously the answer is (for me) nope

Another variation allows for you to leave one very sick person to save five. Obviously a yes
But does not allow us to kill a perfectly healthy person in order to save 5, for example, with transplants

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14 Mar 2023 00:28 #371881 by Skryym
Would I?


Could I?

Probably not. And if I could, it would only be in the first variation of the problem.

What always scared me about this flow of questions is that the more physical distance and energy input is between us and an "immoral" action, the more moral it is perceived to be. Every person alive abhors slavery and would feel nauseous at the thought of owning another human being - but most of us are fine with slaves (in almost every sense of the word) producing our phones, clothing, food, and even our granite tombstones. Where is the line at which we have no responsibility and no sense of immorality for actions that obviously harm humans? Wildlife and the planet notwithstanding.

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14 Mar 2023 13:02 #371892 by Serenity Amyntas

Servizio cura rispetto *Gloria alla Casa dei Soli Gemelli*

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14 Mar 2023 13:35 - 14 Mar 2023 13:42 #371893 by Carlos.Martinez3
In every myth and story we share, there is that moment when the principal character or characters are tested. It is my hope that as we seek and grow, our ideas grow too. Do we as Jedi have the INTEGRITY, we say we do?

Me personally- I don't play with trains or near train tracks. I don't. Never will. The idea can be ... What do you do when confronted with a choice. The BIG choice. I wont ever be the one to be in THIS scenario ever. As a Knight and as a Father and Lover and Pastor I make the point to live in the NOW. Now, I will say this, we are living in some strange times. It would seem like some places have reverted back to the old western lawlessness days but thats not the point.

Do you possess the fortitude and courage to be aware enough to make the right decision for your own path?

I personally would never harm some one TODAY. I can throw people still but thats not the point either. When given the choice, what do we choose? What is the value of our relationship or attachment to how we view defense and death?

Would you take a life if war was involved or if it showed up to your PLANET? TODAY? Are you a defender of life or a taker? Be wary Jedi of what we have and attach to is all we recommend. Reflect. What do y'all think?
Pastor Carlos

*edit added after posting

Anagnorisis is the moment of truth or the moment when we find out whats what. I hope this idea helps others see that in every part of the Hero's Journey we WILL be called out. Not to pull a switch but to test our grit.
Why harm one another?
What of others?
Past C.

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15 Mar 2023 03:18 #371921 by Antares
I think the trolley experiment tries to understand when emotional detachment and logic enters the problem. Flipping a lever offers a level of detachment allowing logic to set in. 5 strangers die versus 1 stranger is simple math. In the next scenario emotions take over because of the close contact with the 1 person you decided to kill in order to save the 5. My default mode in such a scenario would be to not kill anyone but I would try like crazy to find another solution.

"I dreamed the world, with my eyes open
But time moved on and then, new worlds begin again
Oh my heart, in this universe so vast
No moment was made to last, so light the fire in me"
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15 Mar 2023 04:52 #371926 by Tragamite
Everything is situational, and in this situation I feel like there is an alternative action that could be taken to alert those oblivious workers, either the five or the one allowing me an opportunity to save them all. Situations are rarely so black and white that there is only two possible choices. As a similar situation as to the sacrifice of oneself to sa e the life of others being oppressed. By making the sacrifice you haven't necessarily eliminated the threat against those others and they still could all be made to suffer without you to stand up and defend them after your sacrifice. Often these choices are split second decisions to be made and making a choice is not an easy one.

As a Jedi, I have learned that I must always act how I feel is the right and just way. I may be very wrong in those choices and so too must I accept whatever the consequences of my actions. I like to bring up the movie, "The Incredibles." Mr. Incredible saves a man attempting suicide and is sued for interfering in his willful death. While the concept sounds asinine, the truth is it could happen. Do what you know in your heart is right and accept whatever the outcome.
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15 Mar 2023 17:48 #371930 by Alkhemist
Pastor Carlos said, "Would you take a life if war was involved or if it showed up to your PLANET? TODAY? Are you a defender of life or a taker?"

I'm not sure whether your second full sentence is referring to the first. In other words, to kill someone, say, in self defense where there is no other way out shouldn't necessarily earn one the title of "life taker." Yes, they took a life, but I don't believe it would define the individual from there on out. In this case, we may be falling into an unfair judgment if we label a person as such.

A personal example: I was once aggressively approached by a man (neighbor) who was about 6'4" while we were having a disagreement. Though we weren't even at the level of yelling at each other, I watched him suddenly become very agitated, and he came at me, phone raised, clearly intending to hit me with it. Because I saw no other alternative given this particular situation, and because I was in a place in which I had no escape, I knocked him out and walked back home.

This man later called the cops on me, and they came to my house. I told them the story as honestly as I could, including the fact that I was acting in self-defense. Because I admitted it (just trying to be truthful!), I spent a night in jail. The man suffered nothing for attacking me, though he did leave me alone from that point.

Fortunately, I don't have a record, as the case was completely dismissed once I got some legal help. But because of this, certain friends of this guy have labeled me as "violent and dangerous." (That reputation has since cleared up, too, thankfully!)

So, I'm just hesitant to label someone who may have done something for a reason we're unaware of. Maybe even a good one(?)

May the Force Be With You,
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15 Mar 2023 18:00 - 15 Mar 2023 19:22 #371934 by Alexandre Orion
Would it be considered a spoiler were I to tell you that in moral philosophy, there is no one right, moral solution to this ?

I don't know what I would do. As said Tragamite, it is a situational - thus conditional - dilemma. Should all six potential victims be strangers to me, I am as morally sound in doing nothing as I am in switching the track. We cannot let ourselves be beguiled by the consequentialist/utilitarian maxim of 'greatest good for the greatest number' (which translates in this case to 'one death is better than five'). Indeed, that is just stupid and the same reasoning has prolonged some pretty hideous practices by the past.

Barring flagrant negligeance, runaway trains, earthquakes and wild animals do not 'murder' people. This unfortunate situation would be happenstance. My involvement would only make things worse, and by touching that lever, I would undoubtedly and not mistakenly be gulty of manslaughter (the 'consequences' which Antares alluded to) No one loses five lives ; each lose only one life -- which is ephemeral and bound to expire at an uncertain time for an uncertain cause or set of causes anyway.

Suppose one knows some of the five workers and does not want her/his mates to get hurt. Sure, switch the track and let the lone bloke on the other end get squashed. Is there a degree of personal, emotional interest there ? Is it a subjective ? Yep... But we cannot say that it is immoral. Likewise, if it's my best mate working alone at the end of the other track, there's no way I would pull that lever. And If my best mate is one of the five, that lever would be pulled without a second thought. Again, there is no moral incoherence to that decision (manslaughter notwistanding).

When all outcomes are going to be tragic (which is a value judgement - very human, yes, but not at all 'fact') it leaves us on the outside of deonotological (duty) certitudes. We are witnesses to circumstances over which we have no control. The "lever" is merely the illusion of some sort of control, but it isn't - the tragedy is imminent, no matter how that tragedy manifests itself. Certainly, if one person can be saved with no harm to anyone else, we must endeavour to make that happen (Peter Singer and wet expensive shoes...*), but in the case of certain death for one or others, morality just doesn't apply.

Pull the lever, don't pull the lever : the moral value is equal.

* If one is walking through the park and a small child has fallen into a shallow pool, the parents/caretakers are nowhere to be seen, but one is wearing some smart shoes, should we wade in to save the child and thus ruining the shoes ? Only psychopaths would say "no". Yet, for the price of those shoes, had we donated the money to Oxfam or something like that, we could possibly save a hundred children (cf. Peter Singer, 1973). Let's think about that... It's a more real problem than runaway trains, really !

Be a philosopher ; but, amidst all your philosophy, be still a man.
~ David Hume

Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme.
~ Henri Bergson
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Last edit: 15 Mar 2023 19:22 by Alexandre Orion.
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