Discussion on the idea of Universal Basic Income

So Alexandre and I are discussing the idea of universal basic income and some of my ideas were sort of blown open. Guy Standing is one of the individuals essential to the topic of universal basic income. This is one of his talks

https://iai.tv/articles/the-universal-basic-income-for-the-sceptics-auid-1076

I'd like to have a discussion about this, and universal basic income in general

I have a hard time with universal anything.

It’s hard to give every one equally - they are people.

I know I buy in bulk. The only way some days we get things is to manage a bit better next month. That’s just me personally.

I know people doing things that are NOT in the “normal” box.

More than one family is being supported by one person. Many in fact. I know countless people NOT on lists. Do we loose those in the process?

I’m a Vet in America with the Vet healthcare we have here - if you are not active and aware and up to date with your own stuff - NOW - with Vets - you will be left to forge for yourself. No one can do things for you and here lately - no one does.

Don’t get me wrong there ARE ways and programs and such but they take navigation and patience most don’t have - I’ve had MP s - military police escort me out of a ER because I wasn’t being seen and was demanding to be seen after 10 hours.
There’s always some way -things -that can get “kerbobbled” often at any any part of the “pipe.”

Doesn’t make the pipe wrong or the people or process wrong it just makes it more difficult to maneuver.

Management

No use in doing all these great things if ya got jerks at the helm.
Good management benefits all- bad management is wasaaay to tolerated for me in my own world, I can’t imagine on a universal level where ya can’t use the words - can I talk to some one who better at managing than you.


It reminds me of the story of Joseph in the Abrahamic faith -

* he could count add write and think with moral and accuracy as well as accountability. He was blessed for not every step of the way.

There are very few Joseph’s in the world who have a true count or even a good managing experience and their own set of morals.

Not blaming anyone for anything but most time what I find is, managing ISNT the managers job.

So how will that works when - if - poor management happens there. It happens all over. Check and balances are ok I guess but wouldn’t it be nice if we just learned to manage better - from those who - manage better ?


* this is my own 2 cents and my own opinions.
What’s yours?

@Carlos
Boy I hear ya and that was one of my main concerns with UBI. Some things you can’t legislate enough to accomodate irreducible rascality or what you are calling “jerks at the helm” . This will take more than throwing money at people. Consider right now the 1200 stipend for each American Citizen. What about those who are not citizens but provide for our farming to be done?
What about the big businesses taking advantage of small business loans in America? What about people trying to “come up” during a pandemic. This is fundamentally about a lack of “community” mindset and a privileging of “individualistic” mindset

And you bring up another point about programs already in place in America. A lot of bureaucracy happens in those programs. So much so that it takes three years for an individual with an obvious and debilitating disability to receive SSI. But the reason it is taking long is the amount of fraud that is rampant in the program. I know of several stories where individuals continued to receive the check of a deceased individual and were only found out through audit. But we are talking about several million people and how can an overworked/underpaid staff manage that?

So its so much about mindset. What do we think about work even? Work gives you purpose is what grad school taught me to tell my clients. Work assists in recovery. These are true. But the notion that you must “pull yourself up by your boot straps” is a good way to stratify society according to privilege. So I don’t know Carlos, there are a lot of unknowns

A lot of know unknowns.
Seems the key to most programs is how to explain them.
Sad really


I’ve been on my own path on work for a few years getting ready for the non work day of retirement.

People need activity. I know I do. Purpose can be given or chosen by us often. My wife will go nuts if she doesn’t have something active to do.

Each society - each group - each can benefit from good managing. Period.

I’m under the light of there will be no way to keep track of 7.5 billion people. Aid was sent to so many places these past years - recently - we are finding out some people hid the resources to prove personal lights. Not good, but they are out there.

I’ve never shook the hand of a “not well off “ politician. Even tribe leaders. They are all just a bit ... more than their people. Game of Thrones is great to watch but not to take as any guidance - if anything that’s a how you don’t do it ... type of lesson.

This is just Carlos now : if we could conquer greed - if we could just get over that little green £@$¥ else could feed our neighbors and our family and friends. We could help without ... reciprocation.

But some ones gotta get paid for it.

Communities willing will find ways - those that don’t -well - won’t or will have a hard time.

It’s possible - hasn’t happened yet but possible.
I know countless of people who are independently free right now - not money but as far as set up and way. They make their own everything and figure out their own needs. There are countless of groups spread across America and the world.

I know people who have their old on site with nurses checking on their meds n such daily without - help or assistance but food ok fashion - son being son and daughter being daughter.

My own life I’ve benefited from realizing what I think I need - I can do.

Having to rely on others tends to hold me a bit too long and at their mercy not my watch or idea. It’s till I begin that things often get done.

I’m not saying set up real separated communities - maybe - what I’m saying is - my -by marriage granddaddy - got tired of getting burned by realitors so he went and got his credentials and now - dosnt have to pay for much, but that’s what he does. He HONED it to him. His team. We can do this for almost anything we choose.

Buying for one more made my grocery list actually a bit cheaper in terms of price. It did take a bit more planning.

More people more people problems

Really, the only thing that needs legislated is the act that grants UBI.

There is no need to debate as to whether or not there would be some people who would not do anything ; there are enough studies (Guy Standing, Dan Pink et al.) that show that 'enough' people are active, and even more performant, when they do not have the Damoclès of how to get the bills paid hanging over their heads.

There are also a lot of people who are in the wrong sort of work and are unfulfilled socio-professionally. These days, in our accidented socio-economic landscape, one can't really just quit one's job in hopes of finding another before there's nothing left to eat... The UBI would allow for that margin where people could actually explore jobs they may enjoy doing without having to worry about keeping the kids fed.

As I see it, even if 9/10 people did "do nothing", the 10th one would still be productive - within or without of a professional framework. That would surely be an improvement, not only for the person but also in society as a whole. When talking about several hundreds of thousands of people, then 1/10 is still an ample rise in productivity.

Australia has free healthcare (except dental, for some reason), subsidised housing, and guaranteed income, as well as generous programs for education, mental health, legal services, and other stuff.

There's plenty who will always say the system is broken or it's not enough - they're probably people who have never worked inside a system and don't see how good it actually is (to a point)

I've used many of our "free" systems - and they work, (to a point, but hey,that's what you get with big systems trying to help everyone a little bit in every area..)

So, there's that...the good...

The bad? - there are still thousands (which in larger population nations would mean millions) that are deadshits, career system abusers, and (the worst bit I suppose) creating dynasties and generations of system abusers.

Of course, it's the 20-50 yo relatively mentally and physically sound ones that draw the ire - we mostly manage genuine empathy for the ill, infirm and elderly - since that's who the system was designed to support.


The ugly?

Between income tax, goods and services tax, fuel, alcohol and tobacco excises, import duties on certain classes of goods, and that's not even starting on state or council rates, levies and stamp duties - I hand over approximately 60% of my "income" to keep the nation afloat.

Take out another 30% of my income for my own housing and whatnot...

I'm not struggling by any means, but I'm sure as shit not driving a rolls....

and that's with our welfare only paying for people in a certain bracket of either medically determined work capacity, income test, and assets test.

If we were to bump that up to everyone (and as per the latest parliamentary debates following CV-19 aid packages - does everyone include foreign students or various classes of visas?) - I'm not sure the money exists.....

So away from the ethics or whether there would be "slackers" - How the heck does a nation fund such a thing? Wars? Crippling short term trade deals that leave the next generation destitute? falsely inflated housing markets?

Can UBI work with capitalism, or does it require that the State own all major life support systems and infrastructure?

So the end results and methodology of a UBI are two different areas in my opinion. The former: that people should be able to afford to be "healthy and functional" is totally achievable and relatively uncontroversial. The idea that this must be achieved by essentially guaranteeing cash to non-dependents seems myopic. If we break down overall health, there's really only a handful of topics I can see as totally guaranteeable by really any external force: food, water, shelter, safety, education.

Currently (in the US) those are not all guaranteed for citizens. If they were, what would people need? In my opinion, the government should be a potential (but not exclusive) provider of baseline services in a marketplace, such that all people can choose said options at no cost to themselves. This is akin to the current medicaid paradigm where people with limited income are eligible for the equivalent of a baseline health insurance plan.
In order to be eligible for these benefits though, one must in my opinion be willing to contribute in what ways they can. In my opinion, this best could be done through a draft-style employment pool for a sort of WPA-esque department, where individual public works projects would draw on those collecting benefits. The point of these projects isn't necessarily to try and prevent laziness, but rather to give people a sense of self-ownership in the results.

I'm throwing a ton out there and not elaborating on the millions of underlying assumptions, but I'm curious what others opinions are.

If the financial base needs are met, more people would be able to focus on the things that are commonly viewed as enriching society like the arts and philosophy. I've lived on both sides of the coin and I find like more fulfilling when I am able to do things I find rewarding even if they don't pay. Success to me isn't defined by how much money I have or how many things I own, but instead on the difference I can make in other people's lives. Before I left TOTJO and my apprenticeship and had my account closed; my Master would always point out that community building was the most impactful thing that people can do. Unfortunately I didn't take that to heart at the time. But my point is, without having to worry about paying for food and rent, we can focus more on what brings us together.

Might as well throw my thoughts in. My issue with "free" anything is the fact that there will always be abusers. Giving an actual example, I'm a tutor at my university. My boss was telling me of her friend who PURPOSEFULLY, only doings caps for emphasis, has kids that are TIMED so she can keep living off of welfare. That RIGHT there is the problem. People who abuse the system with no regard. That's not even accounting for the people who DO misuse the funds, even if it is a minority. Hell, I remember when people were supposedly crying out saying drug testing for welfare was unconstitutional. Unless I missed something, how?

Then you also have the fact of there is always going to be at least one person who wants more. Just watch Dr. Phil taking on teenagers. One girl, IN HIGH SCHOOL, said she needs 2k A MONTH from her mother! I'm sorry, but that type of mentality would be detrimental if we adopted UBI. IMO, this country is just too big for it to work effectively. To quote one of my IRL friends, socialist ideas can work, but only on a small scale. We both use the example of the household. The parents do the work, and redistribute their money in the form of food. It works. But what happens when someone starts getting greedy? Therein lies the problem: it only works if EVERYONE is on board. This is, coincidentally, why I also say we need modernation to please the left and right. I don't want to get too political, but I think most would agree this is a politically based topic, so why not.

I've heard people say what we DON'T need is moderation, as in far side whether it be far left or far right. But I say that's why we need moderation to please both sides, as I will bet money that there will be people on the both sides who oppose anything their "enemies" think of based on their sides alone. I, somewhat sadly, am friends with such a person. For context I am a centrist so I lean both depending on the issue.

Sorry for the essay...