Am I allowed to call myself a Jedi in this Temple if I...?

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26 Jan 2020 15:46 - 26 Jan 2020 15:48 #348860 by Persi_Stance
I believe in the death penalty for those who have proven over repeat chances that they are irredeemable or who commit atrocities too heinous to be allowed to be a part of society.

Should I abandon the Jedi Path, just leave this Temple, or am I okay to stay and study here?

I've been away for a while to try to find my own answer to this dilemma, but I can't bring myself to think differently about this.

Where there is Peace, there is no Emotion.
Where there is Knowledge, there is no Ignorance.
Where there is Serenity, there is no Passion.
Where there is Harmony, there is no Chaos.
Do not fear Death, for there is the Force.
Last edit: 26 Jan 2020 15:48 by Persi_Stance. Reason: Forgot some words
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26 Jan 2020 16:14 - 26 Jan 2020 16:23 #348861 by Br. John

Persi_Stance wrote: I believe in the death penalty for those who have proven over repeat chances that they are irredeemable or who commit atrocities too heinous to be allowed to be a part of society.

Should I abandon the Jedi Path, just leave this Temple, or am I okay to stay and study here?

I've been away for a while to try to find my own answer to this dilemma, but I can't bring myself to think differently about this.


If the Death Penalty was fairly applied, did not depend on where you committed the crime, did not matter what color your skin is, did not make any difference if you had no money or millions of dollars, you might reasonably believe in it. But it's not the case. Too many former Death Row inmates have been released and exonerated. Since it's common for someone sentenced to death to wait 10, 20, even 30 years or more before their execution, nobody can say that persons too dangerous to be allowed to be a part of society cannot be contained without killing them. What do the states and many countries do that do not have The Death Penalty?

I hope you will stay here and study.

I hope you can explain how the Death Penalty is applied justly, equally, and fairly. If you can't, why to you support something that depends on where the crime is committed, depends on if you can afford outstanding attorneys, and is biased against people of color?

You would have to be on a jury and vote to kill someone, be a judge that gives and order to kill someone, or be an executioner to know for sure that you believe in The Death Penalty. If you have not done that, or if and until you do, you don't have an issue here with believing you believe in The Death Penalty.

Founder of The Order
Last edit: 26 Jan 2020 16:23 by Br. John.
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27 Jan 2020 10:16 #348892 by Persi_Stance
If you are to question me on my support of the Death Penalty under some circumstances based on guilty people being released or the inconsistencies brought about by regional differences, then how is one meant to support laws at all? How can we know we're doing good ever if what's right or wrong varies based on locale, and beyond that can be excused based on the skill of a lawyer? Am I meant to believe that shoplifting shouldn't be punished because I got away with it when I accidentally forgot about a tin of mints I intended to pay for, but put in my pocket and forgot about? I deeply believe the greater sin in the case of being in the jury would be leaving the unquestionably guilty serial killer alive to kill only more people than his one life is worth.
In addition, as someone who identifies as homosexual without having engaged in heterosexual intercourse, I fail to grasp the supposed need to personally pass the sentence in order to understand whether I truly believe something that I already know I believe.

Where there is Peace, there is no Emotion.
Where there is Knowledge, there is no Ignorance.
Where there is Serenity, there is no Passion.
Where there is Harmony, there is no Chaos.
Do not fear Death, for there is the Force.

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27 Jan 2020 14:24 #348897 by Br. John
You are welcome to be here, train if you wish, and be a Jedi.

I'm not ignoring your response. I don't have time to discuss it this minute. I don't want a day to pass without you having a clear answer to your question about being here.

Welcome to The Order

Founder of The Order
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27 Jan 2020 15:21 #348900 by Malicious

Persi_Stance wrote: I believe in the death penalty for those who have proven over repeat chances that they are irredeemable or who commit atrocities too heinous to be allowed to be a part of society.

Should I abandon the Jedi Path, just leave this Temple, or am I okay to stay and study here?

I've been away for a while to try to find my own answer to this dilemma, but I can't bring myself to think differently about this.




Dilemma this is not . You can stay here , learn here and call yourself a Jedi . Just because you don't exactly agree with one stance of the temple doesn't mean you have to leave . Personally I believe the same as you . Take some of the big serial killers that killed tens of people , they do infact deserve not to live . I feel if you take someone's life without a cause like self defense or protecting others ( also other causes ) then yes you deserve the same fate . Do not abandon a path just because you don't agree with one thing . People with other opinions is what makes this place lively and some interesting posts as well as arguments . Look at me I'm a Trump supporter when one thread was talking about you can't be a Jedi if you support Trump I still stayed , no one told me to leave . No one is telling you to leave and if they are then truly they have not learned what this temple is trying to teach them . Acceptance is a main teaching here , you have to accept people for who they are and there differences . Accept the good and the bad of others . Yes we teach forgiveness but it is hard to forgive someone when they take one of your family members life , or friend . It is almost impossible to for give someone who takes something so precious from you or your community . I will forgive someone who done me wrong , stole from me , or hurt me but to take a love one's life I cannot forgive that .

I am a Jedi... and a stronger person because of my experiences rather than despite of them. I learned to let go of the rage and hatred, and now I can look back on my early life as a story to teach a lesson... that no matter how bad it seems, no matter how dark it gets, there is good to be found in any situation, and in the blackest darkness can a single candle shine the brightest.

May the Force be with us all.

--- Master Kyp

=_= Malicious (+_+)
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27 Jan 2020 18:39 #348918 by JamesSand

I deeply believe the greater sin in the case of being in the jury would be leaving the unquestionably guilty serial killer alive to kill only more people than his one life is worth.


Just for own my interests - are you suggesting the death "penalty" is appropriate as a response to what someone has already done, or what they might do in the future?

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27 Jan 2020 18:52 #348920 by Malicious

JamesSand wrote:

I deeply believe the greater sin in the case of being in the jury would be leaving the unquestionably guilty serial killer alive to kill only more people than his one life is worth.


Just for own my interests - are you suggesting the death "penalty" is appropriate as a response to what someone has already done, or what they might do in the future?


What I think persi was meaning by this is if the killer is already on trial and without a doubt the killer did it then the killer needs to be dealt with before they do it again .

I am a Jedi... and a stronger person because of my experiences rather than despite of them. I learned to let go of the rage and hatred, and now I can look back on my early life as a story to teach a lesson... that no matter how bad it seems, no matter how dark it gets, there is good to be found in any situation, and in the blackest darkness can a single candle shine the brightest.

May the Force be with us all.

--- Master Kyp

=_= Malicious (+_+)
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27 Jan 2020 18:54 #348922 by JamesSand

What I think persi was meaning by this is if the killer is already on trial and without a doubt the killer did it then the killer needs to be dealt with before they do it again .


Okay. Cool. So - Just for own my interests - are you suggesting the death "penalty" is appropriate as a response to what someone has already done, or what they might do in the future?

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27 Jan 2020 20:43 #348933 by Omhu Cuspor

Persi_Stance wrote: I believe in the death penalty for those who have proven over repeat chances that they are irredeemable or who commit atrocities too heinous to be allowed to be a part of society.

Should I abandon the Jedi Path, just leave this Temple, or am I okay to stay and study here? ...


I would disagree strongly with your stance on the death penalty ... but that said, hope that you will still feel welcome here. If a difference of opinion was enough to cast someone out from my social circle, I'd likely be a hermit.

I know that the values espoused on TOTJO's home page stand explicitly in opposition to the death penalty, and that could create a situation of conflict for you. However, I think that unless we are willing to become dogmatically robotic in our thinking, we have to learn how to tolerate such a situation now and again. There are Catholics who reject the notion that the Pope is infallible. There are Protestants who don't fully accept the Apostle's Creed that their church requires them to periodically recite. There are Americans and Israelis and Brits and Russians who love their country, but criticize some of its actions and dominant values. Their discord with the institutions of which they are a part do not (usually) cause them to be cast out.

Malicious and I debated briefly about the merits of Donald Trump's presidency, but I don't wish he was gone. I like him, and I think he's sincere in his pursuit of truth and understanding here. Like the others who've answered so far, I hope you'll stick around.
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27 Jan 2020 21:20 - 27 Jan 2020 21:24 #348937 by Br. John
It's 20 years on average between offense and execution for all Death Row inmates in the US as of 2016. That's average. It's not unusual to look at the list and see some who are beyond 30 years. 25% of Death Row inmates die of old age / natural causes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_death_row_...in_the_United_States

What is so important about sentencing someone to death that life without parole does not solve? Please don't say it costs less.

There are procedures and secure holding cells for dealing with extremely dangerous individuals. There's plenty of those. If we sentence a serial killer to death and they are going to be around 20 years or more before they are executed, if we have been holding them for that long why can't we hold them longer; until they die on their own?

Who said anything about releasing guilty people? People who were sentenced to death have been exonerated, that's a fact, and such an one is not guilty but wrongly convicted.

There are people on Death Row who have not killed anyone. Did you know that? Any problem with that?

Are you OK with the 13 countries who have the Death Penalty for being Gay? I won't be visiting any of those.

My debating this should not make anyone feel less welcome. We debate things here constantly.

Founder of The Order
Last edit: 27 Jan 2020 21:24 by Br. John.
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