Joseph Campbell is awful

I don't know where else to put this, but I do feel I might explode if I don't say something. I understand that when signing up with the TOTJO and to take the IP you are accepting the doctrine/viewpoints as officially put forth. I intend to go through the Campbell sections of the IP, as well as other potentially distressing portions such as Alan Watts, because that's how you get from Point A to B, and nobody said I have to be happy about it. But I simply must take a moment to point this out:

Joseph Campbell is awful.

I understand that in school you have to read things you don't like, but Campbell is a new level. Not only is he infuriatingly pompous and self-indulgent, there are far too many occasions where he's quite simply an idiot. He's like Dawkins but somehow even less honest about the fact that he clearly has no idea what he's talking about. While Campbell is doubtlessly well-informed about myths themselves the man is absolutely unqualified in any significant way to hold forth as the authority on mythology qua mythology -- his terminal degree was in Medieval Lit ffs and as far as I can tell had no formal training in mythology or the study of religion -- and demonstrates this time and time again. When he's not hamfisted-ly destroying contextual, historical, or theological nuances for the sake of his pet monomyth narrative he's busy continuously harping back to the 'Noble Savage' theme; and not only inflicting this on the Native Americans, who he rarely bothers to identify as anything other than a homogeneous mass, but also treating Buddhism (and Hinduism to a lesser extent, as he's clearly a Advaita Vedanta fanboy) in the same bland, watered-down Zen-centric way as yoga studios across America. A less-angry summation that I find useful was written by the Rev'd Andre Solo, a polytheist priest and initiated Vodouisant:

[T]here are a variety of problems with [Campbell's] work on mythology. Most of these aren’t new; they’ve been covered by plenty of scholars. Let’s get them out of the way quickly:

All myths don’t tell a single story. There are motifs common to some (not all) hero myths, but that doesn’t mean they have the same lesson or meaning behind them. When you decide on a pattern that you’re sure is right it’s easy to ignore stories that don’t fit or reinterpret stories that just kinda-sorta fit. That’s exactly what Campbell did.

The idea of a monomyth undermines what’s greatest about mythology. Myths carry a tremendous amount of cultural content. The entire worldview of a society, its values and highest aspirations, are encoded in myth. This value-content is unique to each culture’s mythology, and it’s what makes myth magical. Focusing on the things that are the same between all cultures means ignoring the heart of myth.

When you universalize myth, you don’t. Any attempt to define the universal story of myth will end up defining the author’s own personal bias. In Campbell’s case, he focused primarily on male mythic figures and stories that agreed with his own theosophical views. The monomyth he tells resonates strongly with Western audiences because it was written by a Westerner.

If any of this seems too nitpicky or academic, let me put it this way:

In the 1940s a white American man wrote about the sacred myths of other cultures. He decided he knew what they meant better than those cultures themselves did. The problem with this should be self-evident.

I recognise that much of my antipathy toward Campbell probably stems from the fact that my 'background' insofar as I have one is theology; and even an armchair theologian is all-too-familiar with the attempts of people like Campbell to discredit theology in favour of a sanitised, prepackaged set of archetypes. If you can throw Christ and Osiris into the same shoddy 'dying god' category then you can feel free to disregard the deeply complex and nuanced things Christianity has to say about the significance of Christ's resurrection. If Moses is simply a Hero (TM) like all other Heroes (TM) then Judaism's continuing engagement with the theophany at Sinai can be swept to the side. If all human myths can be reduced to a handful of morals, theodicy and moral theology goes out the window. Etc etc etc. And that's fine, because nobody is putting a gun to my head and telling me to like Campbell, even if I am indeed obligated to read his work.

People with different backgrounds may -- and judging from many Journal entries, presumably do -- find great meaning in his work and that's wonderful. But Campbell himself, and his work, is problematic. It's insanely generalist and reductionist and quite often, at least in the case of The Power of Myth, lapses into inconsistency at best and incoherence at worse. I don't want to step on any toes here because, as I believe I've said elsewhere, I'm fond of the TOTJO and it's wide diversity of beliefs and hope to find a home here; but at the same time I wanted to clear the air instead of posting increasingly passive-aggressive journal entries.

I'm not aware of anyone saying you need to agree with anything in The IP and if anyone is - they're wrong. I don't know anyone who agrees with everything or disagrees with all of it. If you find something wrong or flawed, fine.

One of the many difrent reasons for the ip is to see somemone else’s idea in practice. To see how it is up and running or even dare I say another way to see the same story’s. During the ip you will find many difrent ideas . Here it’s not that we supply your thought but attempt to allow the individual to choose their own faith and their own stance. It is good you dislike JC.
It is good you have a stand. Please don’t think the IP is for telling you directly
how we all believe and how we all see the world. That’s here - https://www.templeofthejediorder.org

What we believe. When we say we believe in the inherit worth of all - that’s not a Jedi ist thing, it’s kind of a whole world type of thing. Some where every one has some type of same beliefs . JC says the “human potential” in his other works. Every human has a song and potential to do- to accomplish. I appreciate a great effort. Don’t feel like you have to like anything. Don’t feel like you have to align with anything. That’s not the point friend. If you feel like this is a place and a group you can sit and share with them by all means sit and have some tea or cofffee ! Two creams and two pink sugars for me . We don’t bite and we don’t say “ you must “ anything . This is a open place to learn and share. If you like , feel free to pm me directly or even via Skype or whatsapp or anything like that. May the force be with you and may your time here be a benifit.

I'm actually not fond of JC's stuff- but I see it's merit. For years I've mentioned that the IP needs to be updated and one of those updates needs to take what is good from JC and write original content ON it, and then throw out the rest.

So, you're not alone.

Also, I think Alan Watts is the worst between the two . And almost 2 1/2 hours of a drive from Clarksville, TN to a Jedi Gathering in Hocking, OH was nothing more than me and my friend Andy complaining about Alan Watts.

PaschalVehicle wrote: It's insanely generalist and reductionist and quite often, at least in the case of The Power of Myth, lapses into inconsistency at best and incoherence at worse.

I am also not a fan of joseph Campbell, I elude to as much in my own journal. Plenty of things that I did not like about it and quite honestly find pointless in a introduction-ary training program. Its dull, dry, boring as all heck and just over rides the soul of it's pointed use.

But

I think perhaps if one is to step back and look at it beyond just the written word. It could be easy to see why it is the way it is. The interview for example is just that....and if you think about how interview's work....its not really meant to be consistant and enlightening...it's just one guy asking questions an the other guy going "Oh umm..humm...I guess its kind of like...."

I have been writing short stories since 2002-ish.... I think I have gotten rather good at story telling. But if you were to judge me based on casual conversation and discussion topics you might think I am absolutely horrible at communication (everyone else sure says so - I say as much too....i suck )

So it's easy to take that experience and jump into the shoes of Joseph Campbells works. He had one super, great, fantastic, inspirational idea when he created the Monomyth's Hero's Journey. It really was quite brilliant and you can find it in practice in nearly every book and movie you pick up. The rest is just word vomit....you know? A ton of ideas incoherently trying to find solid ground to explain the soul of the monomyth. And to be honest I think everyone is like that. Look at all the actors and famous speakers....They all have one solid great thing....and everything else is just an attempt to draw out the simplicity.

In my story writing circles we call that "Flower Writing" its where you fill in empty space with a bunch of flowery words and ideas to make a small plot appear bigger.

Thats how I generally view Joseph Campbells works...and really even Alan Watts and the other philosophers....They all have one or two solid ideas that they "Flower Up"

Just my thoughts on the matter.

My advice is to just determine YOUR Priorities. Why do you want to get from Point A to Point B as you described it? Why is that important to you? If your answer is satisfactory then you can deal with some flowers on the way Coz I while I have my opinions, I know this temple wont remove it.

Campbell's not awful, he's just wrong. Just like Freud and Darwin were wildly mistaken, but what they got right still laid foundations for the next waves of research.

I hadn't thought about this, thank you

I can't figure out how to quote multiple posts in the same reply, so excuse the sloppy formatting:

Br. John: I don't wish to give off the impression that I feel obligated to like or agree with Campbell simply by virtue of taking the IP. I don't feel such an obligation, and never has it been suggested to me that I should. What I am wary of, however, is bursting in here and giving off the impression of Johnny Latecomer trying to fix things according to my whim. That having been said I still felt/feel that discussing Campbell and implicitly his role in the IP process may be a useful process.

Carlos.Martinez3: Very insightful, thank you.

Alethea Thompson: Glad to see I'm not the only one. I don't necessarily think that all of Campbell is useless or devoid of value -- I am, after all, continuing the IP and will be working to mine those gems from his material -- but I am sceptical of his overall utility... to say the least...

Trisskar: I don't disagree. The Power of Myth as a book is, indeed, just a transcript of an interview; and interviews are frequently not consistent, coherent, or enlightening by their very nature. It is frustrating however to have *required reading* for a program be, as I said and continue to emphasise, inconsistent at best and incoherent at worst. Perhaps I'm just reliving my own personal hell of Catcher in the Rye in high school. As for my priorities, Point A is the IP and Point B is admission into the Seminary, for a variety of reasons that have a great deal to do with my own personal idiosyncrasies, and that is certainly a goal for which I will tolerate fields and valleys of flowers. So dislike Campbell or not I'll still keep reading him and journaling.

steamboat28: Deep personal distaste for Campbell aside, I don't actually think he's awful; but a little poetic clickbai- I mean, hyperbole is a wonderful thing.

Rosalyn J: I hope you don't see this as a criticism of the IP itself, or those who established and/or regulate the IP, it's almost exclusively meant to be a rant about Campbell.

I soft deleted the post that was posted twice.

Firstly: I enjoyed reading your post and wanted to let you that.

Secondly: I want to agree, and argue, with you (if that's possible! ). In particular I'll focus on this bit you quoted from,

"All myths don’t tell a single story. There are motifs common to some (not all) hero myths, but that doesn’t mean they have the same lesson or meaning behind them."

What if all myths tell part (or different parts) of a single story? That's what I took from Campbell I think- the idea that myths go through a similar process, perhaps summed up as "Here to There to Back Here" (again... except somehow it's different to than before) but that not all myths have to go through the entire process and may focus on a small fragment of the whole...

So can you give some clear examples where a myth or story doesn't fit Campbell's idea of the Hero's Journey? I'm very interested in testing if it is possible to use the theory on any myth or whether I have to accord only a specific fragment of the model to the myth you give...

Anyway, what you said is great so thanks for sharing! I look forward to digging deeper into this and finding out where the model of the Hero's journey doesn't work,

Excuse the double post. I decided I'd go through the entire quote and just say yep or nope to each bit.

"All myths don’t tell a single story."

(Maybe so but maybe they tell parts of the same story)

There are motifs common to some (not all) hero myths, but that doesn’t mean they have the same lesson or meaning behind them.

(Yep)

When you decide on a pattern that you’re sure is right it’s easy to ignore stories that don’t fit or reinterpret stories that just kinda-sorta fit. That’s exactly what Campbell did.

(Yep. This is the "man with a hammer" model- I like what this article has to say on it- https://www.fs.blog/mental-models/ )

The idea of a monomyth undermines what’s greatest about mythology.

(Not convinced but go on...)

Myths carry a tremendous amount of cultural content.

(Yep)

The entire worldview of a society, its values and highest aspirations, are encoded in myth.

(Perhaps. Entire worldview probably not but parts of it yeah sure)

This value-content is unique to each culture’s mythology, and it’s what makes myth magical.

(Hmmm... Yes the value content is unique, but no it's not what makes myth (overall) magical. There's a magic in each story made so by it's own value-content, but there's a magic too in having a model of how myths relate to one another. I think myths are only magical if we can relate to them in some way. That's the nice thing about having a model to look at them with.)

Focusing on the things that are the same between all cultures means ignoring the heart of myth.

(Maybe yes for some people if they define that they know what the "heart of myth" is, or defining that it is NOT something that links all myths together. Others would argue that focusing on the things that are the same between all cultures IS focusing on the heart of those cultures and by extension perhaps myth. But either way, there's something in the idea that if you know that you know... you're probably forgetting/ignoring all the stuff you don't- confirmation bias works all ways, )

When you universalize myth, you don’t.

(Not sure I understand. You don't what? You don't universalize it?)

Any attempt to define the universal story of myth will end up defining the author’s own personal bias.

(True in the sense that any attempt to define anything (a fish bowl, politics, my life story) will end up defining the author's own personal bias. To think you can have a purely objective view on something is arrogant indeed. I am also being arrogant in saying that in some way!)

In Campbell’s case, he focused primarily on male mythic figures and stories that agreed with his own theosophical views.

(Maybe. Maybe his own theosophical views changed through his study of myths? Like a puzzle, he was trying to put different parts of life usually held apart together so he could make better sense of things.)

The monomyth he tells resonates strongly with Western audiences because it was written by a Westerner."

(Yes. Probably true. We share (as westerners) similar models of viewing life or have shared knowledge of certain ideas. This helps understand what one another is saying. I wonder however how well the monomyth resonates with Eastern audiences- have much studies been done on that? Hmmmm...)"

Thanks for your time reading and replying

I cannot help but feel that cultures change more over a couple of generations then the difference between different cultures change, generally speaking. This will probably be more true as globalization digs in. And so personally, I do not discount the capability of a person to develop a deeper understanding of some other culture just because they are not of it, then those who might be having the same focus from within it. Sometimes being too close to the picture means you cannot see what it actually is.... just as much as looking at only a corner hides it also. I think what is more relevant is the nature and extents of the effort rather then the skin colour or upbringing of the person doing it.

Joseph Campbell is like anything else I read or listen too or watch. I take the things that are useful and discard the rest.

PaschalVehicle wrote: Trisskar: I don't disagree. The Power of Myth as a book is, indeed, just a transcript of an interview; and interviews are frequently not consistent, coherent, or enlightening by their very nature. It is frustrating however to have *required reading* for a program be, as I said and continue to emphasise, inconsistent at best and incoherent at worst. Perhaps I'm just reliving my own personal hell of Catcher in the Rye in high school. As for my priorities, Point A is the IP and Point B is admission into the Seminary, for a variety of reasons that have a great deal to do with my own personal idiosyncrasies, and that is certainly a goal for which I will tolerate fields and valleys of flowers. So dislike Campbell or not I'll still keep reading him and journaling.

Completely agree. I feel the temple should only focus on the Hero's Journey and it's incorporation towards the Jedi Path....the rest is just "Stuff & Nonsense" as Alan Watt's likes to say

Vusuki wrote: So can you give some clear examples where a myth or story doesn't fit Campbell's idea of the Hero's Journey? I'm very interested in testing if it is possible to use the theory on any myth or whether I have to accord only a specific fragment of the model to the myth you give...

I don't believe all myths tell part of a whole story. There are many myth paradigms and Campbell's is only one form. He does conveniently ignore anything that does not fit his narrative. The Heroine for example. He considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero. According to Campbell there is no such thing as Heroine and females cannot have their own story without being intertwined with his version of "Hero". There are several other versions as well, including the anti hero story and the Homeric hero story, none of which follow the cycle that Campbell describes.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The Heroine for example. He considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero.

This is understandable and ligitimate. Back in the day and in most myths that is the role of a female. It is rare upon rare to have a female hero, it is only just recently that female hero's are so pushed for popularity these days. And the hero's journey monomyth as it is now is easily used and followed by our female heros.

There are several other versions as well, including the anti hero story

Has nothing to do with being a Jedi or a hero of virtue.... sooooo....not relevant...therefor no reason to mention it

and the Homeric hero story, none of which follow the cycle that Campbell describes.

seems to follow the heros journey just fine from my reading

First, the interviews and even The Power of Myth are more Cliff Note versions of Hero With a Thousand Faces. Just like any other academic, if we're going to judge the work, we have to judge it in its entirety. There are certainly big leaps taken by Campbell and he does try to shoehorn certain myths into his model, but we also have to consider the time during which his research was conducted and resources he had available to him. At the time he was doing it, he was one of the very few who had attempted to find similarity between a vast number of myths worldwide from various cultures. And he didn't have the benefit of the internet, or even computers for that matter. And most ancient mythology did feature male heroes. And there are translation issues. And, and, and...

When I consider his work in this light, I see it laying a foundation that we can use to further his study of mythology and perhaps expand upon it. Or we may eventually demonstrate that the Hero's Journey is inherently flawed. What I have been unable to deny is that his model does fit a lot of modern mythology including those featuring female heroes. Disney has especially embraced this, as far back ad Belle in Beauty and the Beast and the recent backstory of Maleficent. We see it in The Matrix. It shows up in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Harry Potter and The Karate Kid follow the script pretty closely. It doesn't need to be dismissed offhand just because it has Campbell's name on it.

The reason I see value in including it in the IP is that we call ourselves Jedi and look to the fictional characters and the philosophy/mythology that influenced their creation. George Lucas has specifically mentioned numerous times that the story arc of Luke Skywalker is definitely influenced by the Hero's Journey model. He admits to borrowing from existing mythology from multiple cultures to create his Star Wars universe. To explore the theological and mythological influences of Star Wars without including Campbell would be like studying Aristotle while ignoring Plato and Socrates. We don't have to agree with Campbell, but we should not deny his role in influencing modern mythology, especially the cinema.

Trisskar wrote: This is understandable and ligitimate. Back in the day and in most myths that is the role of a female. It is rare upon rare to have a female hero, it is only just recently that female hero's are so pushed for popularity these days. And the hero's journey monomyth as it is now is easily used and followed by our female heros.

Actually there are a myriad of ancient heroine and strong female lead character myths. In fact it was the norm before Patriarchal warrior clans destroyed much of the ancient stories and practices by replacing them or modifying them with male figures. However many survived. There are tons of ancient heroine stories of the Goddesses like Artemis, Tiamat, Hel, Bastet, White Buffalo Calf Woman, Freya. Also there were the Amazons, Lilith, Eve, Atalanta, Hua Mulan, The Valkyrie - even real life figures like Joan of Arc of which legend has formed around. The list goes on and many of these legendary heroines have been downplayed over the centuries because of emphasis on male counterparts.

Trisskar wrote: Has nothing to do with being a Jedi or a hero of virtue.... sooooo....not relevant...therefor no reason to mention it

I never said it did and this is not a discussion on Jediism but a discussion on the heroes journey so I do find it relevant.

Trisskar wrote: seems to follow the heros journey just fine from my reading

Then your reading it wrong.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Trisskar wrote: This is understandable and ligitimate. Back in the day and in most myths that is the role of a female. It is rare upon rare to have a female hero, it is only just recently that female hero's are so pushed for popularity these days. And the hero's journey monomyth as it is now is easily used and followed by our female heros.

Actually there are a myriad of ancient heroine and strong female lead character myths. In fact it was the norm before Patriarchal warrior clans destroyed much of the ancient stories and practices by replacing them or modifying them with male figures. However many survived. There are tons of ancient heroine stories of the Goddesses like Artemis, Tiamat, Hel, Bastet, White Buffalo Calf Woman, Freya. Also there were the Amazons, Lilith, Eve, Atalanta, Hua Mulan, The Valkyrie - even real life figures like Joan of Arc of which legend has formed around. The list goes on and many of these legendary heroines have been downplayed over the centuries because of emphasis on male counterparts.

And every single one of them follows the Heros Journey format. And nearly all of them are in the "New" ages save one or two of which are the rare cases i spoke of

Okay, try not to be offended, I'm not going to offer you "niceties" like the others, but instead offer you my honesty on your statement, with all the kindness possible for addressing such a disrespectful rant.

If you are having difficulties with the IP material, it is probably best you consult with the clergy or another member INSTEAD of opting to just publically disrespect the core philosophy source for the Temple right in the middle of its "online hallowed halls".

You do understand that your tirade complaining that you hate Campbell in the TOTJO IP is like entering Christian seminary and then complaining that you don't like JC in the Bible?

The idea of The Force originates with the concepts of the "i" Campbell as experienced through the "i" Lucas. If the "i" you are being this time around doesn't like it, then don't do it and go find something else that "i" as you this time around does like. Simple as can be.

From my reading of your rant, it seems to me that you are having issues with self and simply cannot get past ego while trying to complete this portion of the IP, since all you've listed is what is offensive to you personally...as if the Temple of the Jedi Order Initiate Programme was here just to suit you personally.

Pardon me, "i" have to go laugh with "I" and IT for a moment.

As a retired college instructor "i" will leave you with this advice: If you don't like the studies THAT YOU YOURSELF SIGNED ON FOR either try harder to understand what is blocking YOU or find something else to study. Lengthy manifestos on why you hate your homework are childish and don't have ANY place in ANY learning environment beyond first grade.

As your peer in the IP "i" will remind you of the 21 Maxims and that "A Jedi is unencumbered by bias or personal interest." and your rant is filled with nothing but bias and personal interest.

But the i/I/IT will just continue to laugh because your error here is equally entertaining as it is irritating because it was done in complete ignore-ance of anything other than yourself as just another "i" offshoot of the big "I" of "we" and you've missed the whole point in the first place.

Campbell is the core because his monomyth is THE thing that brings together ALL the religions under one roof for discussion of their similarities instead of their differences. That you managed to bring "difference" that is somehow also "offended" to this all is utterly amazing AND a true testimony to the ego of humanity and its blindness to reality which the IP and Jedism are intended to correct...

...and i/I/IT finds this to be hilarious.

May The Force be with you. If you don't conquer ego soon you're gonna really need it whence you arrive upon the lessons of Watts.