What is it like to feel gender?

Eqin Ilis wrote: I believe answering your question directly is only more likely to get us off-topic. If your intent is truly to understand, I recommend: https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/summer-2016/being-there-for-nonbinary-youth

Nothing there I don't already know. I'm not sure how more off-topic we could get now as it seems to have become about what this forum area is for? Which I don't mind, its a new forum area and these things sometimes have to get worked out by trial and error.

So, to me at least, it seems this forum is already starting to ask itself what it is meant to be. That might be my mistake, but I'm not ignorant of this particular topic... perhaps some have misinterpret what I've wrote (its easy to do, even I don't understand some things I write after a while). I do note though that this topic didn't start in this forum area.

So while I note it was not originally posted in this area, I'm not sure if this forum space is meant to be a support group? I interpreted the Intersectional to be a more protected discussion. My understanding is that 'support groups' avoid upsetting people by not challenging their experiences. In contrast 'protected discussions' provide protections from people being abused for sharing their experiences. And well I'm sharing mine?

If that sort of protected but personal discussion upsets other people on a topic then perhaps this area could more usefully be a support group (or labelled and defined to work as such).

But of course if something is triggering anyone or potentially others on this topic in what I've said just point it out!? Feel free to be specific. If you don't want to know a persons deeper thoughts or reasons for something then I'd argue it should not bother you as much that they have it, else just ask ie as its a discussion forum.

But I'm far from ignorant of the topic, its just I don't define myself so much by my past or how I want others to see me, so my language is not about self identity - so my thoughts are on better defining working paradigms for deepening ones healthy experience of the particular topic. That often means adjusting language in small ways to constructively conserve the topic while adding more function and capability. As the topic poised a question which seemed to offer an exploration of the depth of the topic. I'm generally not at the Temple to 'talk about my problems' using conventional language as that is more a support group function - I'm not sure anything I've said is particularly harmful for anyone.

I mean, looking at this thread... I've used and agree with the differences in gender and sex,I've applied the lens of 'feeling' of ones gender as asked by the OP in the context of personal experience to define functional concepts of masculinity and femininity and how they function to better orientate one to feel gender, and I've even defended gender from old fashioned stereotypes!

It's really important that a minority avoids attacking itself and its allies when their members stray from the narrative. It happens a lot, it happened with feminism, it happens with race, it happens nationalism (what politics is) and all groups probably suffer it in various ways. I try not to buy into that myself, but a way to avoid it is to perhaps make this forum area more specific to a support group function? Otherwise it might run into this problem from time to time......

.... as in a support group, people would ask a question as a platform for people who want to talk about their experience of the topic in terms of as it happened, rather than why. While I've always considered discussions to be a platform for analysis, critical thinking, creative thinking etc, with the difference between intersectional, temple, and outer rim just being the measures of protections from excessive criticality or abuse.

You say you were already educated on this topic. Yet, from your very first message on this thread, you resorted to speaking about how you view biological sex rather than gender. Can I then understand that you purposely redirected things in that way? I gave you the benefit of the doubt and attempted to relate to you as a person who might not know the harm they cause. Now you say you understand how these issues are viewed and think you should be free from the burden of using inclusive language unless this is a support group.

No one should be forced to run off into a support group to escape someone who is attempting to make this as uncomfortable as possible while staying within defined guidelines. Such behavior is a clear attempt at intimidation.

Hiya,

I just wanted to pop in here and say:

This space is not a space for debate (that's outer rim)

This is supposed to be a supportive space (but not a support group as we are not licensed for such).

This topic is not as cut and dry as whether or not concrete is grey. This is a matter of identity. Whether or not this features as most important for you is of no import. This topic (as we have seen) brings up strong feelings. That's why it was moved to intersectional. Our views on gender and how it feels do not just affect us.
Certain views on gender have marginalized groups of people and prevented basic civil rights and human rights from being granted. It's a loaded topic with a lot of history, a lot of misinterpretation and a lot of misinformation.

So, when a member of a marginalized group, or an ally of such, speaks, when someone opens up, when resources are given, when stories are told, its on us to hear them.

Remember what our doctrine says:

In the creed it says "I will never seek so much to be consoled as to console. To be understood as to understand. To be loved as to love.

Eqin Ilis wrote: You say you were already educated on this topic. Yet, from your very first message on this thread, you resorted to speaking about how you view biological sex rather than gender. Can I then understand that you purposely redirected things in that way? I gave you the benefit of the doubt and attempted to relate to you as a person who might not know the harm they cause. Now you say you understand how these issues are viewed and think you should be free from the burden of using inclusive language unless this is a support group.

No one should be forced to run off into a support group to escape someone who is attempting to make this as uncomfortable as possible while staying within defined guidelines. Such behavior is a clear attempt at intimidation.

Well we all are born with an encoded sexual differentiation within our DNA... that is what I mean by biological sex is, as by definition it is distinct from gender. I've never suggested they are the same thing, so I'm not confusing sex and gender, but talking about the mechanisms which populate the overlap between the two.
So why am I talking about that on a topic of feeling gender.... just because they are related, or certainly seem to be, and have impacts on living as one, the other, both or a mixture.
It seems as its that which has upset you or made you concerned for the potential for others? If so I have to presume you think there is no connection between sex and gender at all, or that discussion of their relationships is taboo? The reason I ask because it seems clear that a lot of transgender (if not most) tend to align their gender with aspects of the non-birth genders sex, which is why SRS is considered a treatment for gender dysphoria where it includes body dysmorphia. But I'm not telling you your wrong, just trying to understand where your taking issue with my opinion about how we might be able to feel gender.

My frustration comes from the fact I've repeatedly outlined how diverse gender identity and experiences can be. Transgender is an umbrella that includes anything other than cisgender. I very clearly shared a few of the types that are not interested in transitioning along a binary view. Your insistence on returning to a binary view is very concerning to me, because the typical experience of a trans person in a conversation with someone that returns to binary views as if they are the default is an attempt at erasure or invalidation. Experiencing a binary reality for oneself and insisting that it is the only way you understand the entire topic are two very different things.

You are correct that I do not believe that there is much (if any) connection between sex and gender. The more I learn about the variety of gender experiences and the complexities of sex characteristics, the less I see evidence that they are related beyond social expectations. From a scientific standpoint, assuming the relation of sex and gender is just bad science, since even gravity must be proven beyond just seeing it everywhere. From a social standpoint, it is also hurtful. Talking about the two as intertwined assumes there is proof to support it and puts the burden on trans people to prove their experiences deserve to be recognized.

Growth is always painful, but can be very rewarding.

Which is to say, words have meaning much like a sign post, but what direction you need to go, regardless of the sign post, is entirely dependent on where you are. You can't tell someone to go left when, where they are, they need to go right and then get mad at them when they do for not arriving.

Which is to say I have myself in a double bind if I hinge my satisfaction on expecting someone else to understand the words I am using from the perspective that has built up in me. It can't be done and therefore I will never be satisfied with it. The closest I can get is a bit of self deception if they parrot me really well.

Humans often become wary about things they don't fully understand. They create scenarios about what it MIGHT mean, and since our brains are problem solvers, those ideas come in the form of problems. If it is a problem and someone else is causing it, they might be labeled an enemy. If they persist in being an enemy(as far as our brain is concerned) offensive measures become justified. The good intention of ending a problem by attacking the enemy often leads to suffering on both sides.

Can this be a painful experience for both sides, Yes. I am trying to be as gentle as I know how, to help mitigate that.

I think I might understand your viewpoint, rugadd. I thank you for the reminder.

Just for the sake of clarity, I ask the opinion of the group in a scenario we can imagine.

One person comes here and has their worldview challenged. When they leave the conversation, they are still seen as the gender they have always identified with. The entire world outside of this thread validates and confirms their gender. While they may never see it quite the same, the struggle is internal and not likely to affect their safety.

Another person comes here and has to defend themselves, or watch as a few well-meaning allies do their best to help, with mixed results.They return to a world that consistently challenges them to defend themselves, invalidates them, and even threatens their physical safety. They can become so exhausted with the struggle that they may not have any energy left to weigh in here, especially as they will be asked to defend every aspect of their identity, as well as provide references.

Do we truly see these two struggles as equal? I understand the need to mediate and find peaceful solutions. But if the peaceful solution is for a disadvantaged side to remain disadvantaged and not push back, then it is less a solution than a desire for them to suffer quietly. I cannot stand on the side of any who would ask that of a person struggling to survive as I have seen my trans friends do. Any who see meaning in the knight's code should understand my stance on this matter.

For this conversation to actually welcome voices and experiences outside what have already been expressed, consistently challenging the viewpoints that are new to everyone sends the very clear message that their voices and experiences are not actually welcomed. Thus my request that at the very least those here learn to use language in a constructive way. It may not show that someone can do more than parrot, but it does show that they are putting in the effort to build a space where all are truly welcome to share and be heard.

I myself find dissenting opinions very welcome. I am anxious to hear what others have to say and where they are coming from and perhaps, where they are going. I find it fascinating. But, as you say, it is unwelcoming to some. I had no problems outside of the occasional slipup renaming my daughter to my son and calling them by a new name they had chosen. I deal with them everyday, so I know they don't get that kind of support much outside of me and their close friends(whom they have not been able to see because of covid). Getting people to change because its reasonable and the right thing too do isn't so clear cut, however: just look at our politics. I applaud your strength and willingness to continue even if it won't get you the exact results your looking for. You are quite correct when you imply somebody needs to say it so others know they are not alone. I beg you too continue in your patience and understanding so that those outside of that understanding will know that your not just seeking conflict, but resolution. As a vocal point on the subject, your example will set the tone for those who are just now learning and it will also set the bar for acceptable behavior for those you represent. You have made it very obvious, intentionally or not, that you are a leader here right now on the subject. Others here have not been so polite in the past.

I see. Thank you. I will do my best.

Eqin Ilis wrote: My frustration comes from the fact I've repeatedly outlined how diverse gender identity and experiences can be. Transgender is an umbrella that includes anything other than cisgender. I very clearly shared a few of the types that are not interested in transitioning along a binary view. Your insistence on returning to a binary view is very concerning to me, because the typical experience of a trans person in a conversation with someone that returns to binary views as if they are the default is an attempt at erasure or invalidation. Experiencing a binary reality for oneself and insisting that it is the only way you understand the entire topic are two very different things.

You are correct that I do not believe that there is much (if any) connection between sex and gender. The more I learn about the variety of gender experiences and the complexities of sex characteristics, the less I see evidence that they are related beyond social expectations. From a scientific standpoint, assuming the relation of sex and gender is just bad science, since even gravity must be proven beyond just seeing it everywhere. From a social standpoint, it is also hurtful. Talking about the two as intertwined assumes there is proof to support it and puts the burden on trans people to prove their experiences deserve to be recognized.

Yes I was just answering the topic as I saw it, and not trying to define gender or sex (indeed I was using the same one as you probably). My reasoning is that a wide audience will only have so much in common ground for a question like this. And since the majority of that audience do consider themselves to be in those binary concepts it makes it easier to explain by using those terms. So I wasn't trying to be prescriptive by any stretch of my imagination, but rather exploring some how people can experience of feeling of gender. I never said it was the only way to feel gender, or that everyone can use that method to experience how other people experience gender. As you say its very diverse, likewise in that regard it seems unfair to say my experiences are wrong, and wrong to assert deliberate intimidation. But I get it's an emotional subject and I am not an easy person to make head or tail from (no pun intended). My writing style is a little hard to digest even for me at times. But rest assured I'm not being prescriptive about it and rather instead just exploring mechanisms that can address the topic in some way. Ways that work for me. I think it's rare that any one way will address a whole topic as big as this entirely with any simple prescription of methodology, which is why I never used language to describe it as prescriptive or authoritative.

Half the problem might be I start from the scientific objective information and then add the experiential that then together exists as the framework of my understanding which then I can apply to others experiences and thoughts. I just find it's a more effective approach to get results faster. As a result, I prefer to focus on the science because I find it more meaningful to me, and therefore interesting. But I don't assert those things as the limits of truth on the matter, its just how I think about it.

And honestly, that's exactly why I see your behavior as threatening a culture of inclusivity.

Your very first post makes clear that you do not approve of trans individuals who wish to transition before adulthood.

Your second makes clear you see trans people fighting for a space to pee without getting physically attacked for it as "stamp[ing] their feet."

You want to fall back on "how you understand things" and a "scientific approach," but you repeatedly asserted that the binary is scientific (it's not) and that male and female bodies have differences that are only acceptably "scientific" to people who consistently target trans individuals.

Your last message was very nicely worded, and I may have believed it if I had been unable to reference your previous posts. I went back wondering how I misread them, and I found instead that the way you present yourself here is an attempt at an excuse for knowing the damage you might cause and going forward with it anyway. Before, I was going to try to educate you on intersex experiences and how you may have misunderstood biological sex, but in reading your previous writing, you are right. You already understand it, and yet you chose to exclude and contribute to harming others' understanding. I don't think I can continue this conversation further.

Rugadd, this is the best I can do, under these circumstances. I don't know how many more times I can be expected to keep an open mind while this is allowed to go on, as each of the times I have written, I have followed the same process. I would love to believe Adder has pure intentions, but he has repeatedly proven to me he does not. I cannot educate someone who already knows the information in question, and I can't keep putting myself in a position where he is allowed to hurt me "because I'm the only one." You got a trans kid? Ask them/him to help you spot the microaggressions. They're plentiful.

Eqin Ilis wrote: Your very first post makes clear that you do not approve of trans individuals who wish to transition before adulthood.

I disagree. I said I wasn't going to comment on it, and that my comments were in regards to adults.
Avoiding something is not saying you disagree with it. Indeed the reason I stated that sentence was exactly for this reason, for the reason that my post's content could be taken to mean that very thing... but that those other aspects of the discussion were not included in my comment;

"For clarity to context of the above, me personally, I think gender for an adult is up to them! I'm not touching the kids though, that issue speaks to deeper science which would then go to inform a deeper debate about the definitions, which I find beyond the scope of this thread or my approach in this post."

Eqin Ilis wrote: Your second makes clear you see trans people fighting for a space to pee without getting physically attacked for it as "stamp[ing] their feet."

I was taking a different approach to explain a contemporary problem. How you define the problem might speak to how you interpret the discussion perhaps, but my approach was not saying that the problem was transgender people wanting a safe place to pee, but rather that systems should be (and perhaps originally were) designed for functions and then they became divorced from them as part of a culture (in this case sex and old fashioned models of gender). The stamping feet reference is to whomever clings to the inappropriate usage, in my case the old paradigms of mens and womens. I've seen men complain about women in a mens bathroom and vice versa, which is probably why transgender use caused confusion among some.

Eqin Ilis wrote: You want to fall back on "how you understand things" and a "scientific approach," but you repeatedly asserted that the binary is scientific (it's not) and that male and female bodies have differences that are only acceptably "scientific" to people who consistently target trans individuals.

Your last message was very nicely worded, and I may have believed it if I had been unable to reference your previous posts. I went back wondering how I misread them, and I found instead that the way you present yourself here is an attempt at an excuse for knowing the damage you might cause and going forward with it anyway. Before, I was going to try to educate you on intersex experiences and how you may have misunderstood biological sex, but in reading your previous writing, you are right. You already understand it, and yet you chose to exclude and contribute to harming others' understanding. I don't think I can continue this conversation further.

That's ok, hey I want to be wrong! Its how I learn (and why I’m here). So if you have any actual wrongdoing or 'microaggressions' by me to justify your feelings towards me, then please do post. Or not, its ok with me.

But yea I think your misinterpreting what I've wrote. Which (as I've said) is understandable given my writing style, and the topic, and the habit of people to naturally assume things about others and judge them based on those rather than having an open mind. The downside of emotional topics is that it tends to cloud an open mind with subjective bias. But that goes both ways, me included, so having an open mind about being wrong is important too.

To your points.... I do think most everyone accepts the sexual poles exist as, well poles!? Poles have a space between two points, and male and female sex tends to have well defined and accepted sexual differentiation and expression of the relevant chromosomes. That is not to assert that it can only be full and complete expression of them which denotes association or being of either pole, or indeed that mixed expression cannot create intersex conditions.
I never said that gender was limited to poles either, and as I’ve gone to lengths to explain didn’t assert that it had to be related to sex, but because rather that it often was and could be, that it was useful for this particular topic as a way to feel gender. But as you point out and I agree, gender is hugely diverse so it in no way was meant to suggest it was the only way to feel gender or even a way to feel all genders.
So yea, there is topics which are triggers which I touched on, but not trying to trigger. To me this is the difference between a support group and protected discussion group. I don't mind if its either, there should be no stigma associated with a support group, I just think they do the same thing but functional differently to achieve it differently which makes it more suitable for different audiences.

Impact matters more than intent. You win. I'm out. Enjoy making this space feel threatening to others with your "learning through debate." Consider another approach to learning if you actually wish to be perceived as compassionate.

Nah, I'm not debating you. I'm just explaining what my posts meant. That you disagree with what I meant when I wrote them just means either you read it wrong or I explained it wrong AFAIK, and I've already admitted I'm not the clearest of reads. Perhaps the topics in Intersectional shouldn't be so open to analytical thinking.

If the cup is full, don't pour anything else into it.

Hiya,

This feels more like a debate between two people then a discussion.

In this space, there is to be NO DEBATE. Pursuant to the rules that govern this space. It's clear neither of you will give an inch.

I suggest we move on.

If not, I will be forced to revoke access to IT for a time.

Yes, unfair
Yes, but this is a discussion between two people, Roz.
Yes, all the other things you will say.

The rules say it is not a debate forum.

If you see or feel yourself getting into a debate STOP

Ok?

I will make my decission when I get home from work

Before the thread gets locked id like to reiterate what I have said.
1) i have no idea what to say to women about how they can feel their femininity. I honestly would be pretty interested in hearing the voices of the few women that we have here speaking about what makes them feel feminine. But its not my place to speak on that. I am speaking only to the males. In particular, the young males.
2) if you are a male and you dont know what it feels like to experience your masculinity, do wtf im telling you: learn to fight. Involve yourself in a training regimen and get physically fit. Do something that is dangerous. Go step into something youre not sure you can control. And when you find a girl who likes you dont be a two-pump chump. Give the best of yourself and make sure that she goes first. Dedicate yourself to a skill/ability that takes years to master. Stick with it.

Im not going to argue with anybody about any of this. The question was asked “What is it like to feel gender?” As far as i have noticed, i am the only one who has actually given an answer to that question. I explained the things which resulted in me feeling my own masculinity. You can all be mad at me. IDGAF. Other people may offer other answers. I am not denying the validity of anyone else’s answers. I am simply telling you what has been true in my life. And it is true. There is truth in everything that I have said, whether you like it or not.


DAMN- chiming in on the trans debate, there is no way in hell that a minor should be allowed to have sex/genital changing surgery and hormone “therapy” any more than they should be allowed to have breast implants or to take steroids. Sorry/not sorry if that hurts your feelings.