Taking Part in the Process...As an experienced Jedi

I can see where he is going though, picture high school going on to college. At some point you have to take an assessment test to see I'd you retained your knowledge from high school..if you tested at a college trigonometry level for example you don't have to take that class again you can just choose to proceed. If there was something like that, an application and test followed by an interview and any supporting documents you could possibly do it that way. But coming up with the criteria for the test and all the extra man hours involved in putting all of that together and doing interviews and filtering out applications from just the wanna be knights etc, it would be a huge pain and cause a lot more problems then it would solve.

I do think there is room for a title of someone who has been knighted else where by a respectable community would be of merit. Where it would be obvious they are a knight if a different community but not here, they dont have any extra privileges then a member but it at least shows they are a more honorary guest of the site then just a member for sake of credentials, that would make sense to me anyway.

Tellahane wrote: I do think there is room for a title of someone who has been knighted else where by a respectable community would be of merit.

Yea...there was once. Ambassador roles. Way back in the day I was an Ambassador here at TOTJO. (Edit: I guess I should say...Old Old OLD Totjo haha) I did exactly what I do now....Work on providing history, handling interaction between communities and alerting everyone about new gatherings....now im just an Apprentice here.

I don't think Streen is concerned about Rank though. He is just asking for something to do to help out around here. A Job...not a rank...I was doing the same thing when I first came. I didn't really want to go through the whole "Master/Apprentice" process simply because I've had five Masters in my day and loosely taught many students out of here (they came to me) and other locations. I wanted to help. I didn't want to prove myself. I didn't want to be seen as something greater than everyone else. I just wanted to use the skills i have to help.....Its kind of what I do.

I chose freely to do the IP and go through the Apprentice roles because I have the time to do it. I am a stay at home mom and have left alot of the other community groups and past responsibilities. So...I have the time and I want to participate. Perhaps when/If I become a Knight I could work on something like you suggested Tellahane

However. Regardless...Streen. I could be wrong....but I tend to notice that the best way to help is to simply pick something out that you see needs help with and do it. Submit it for review and Ta Dah! You helped Pick one of the forum sections and start filling it up with topics and facts. I notice there is alot of questions about Meditations, something your good at if I recall Start sharing! Topics around here pop up rather slowly. I am sure they would love the help there.

Or your paintings start making painted portraits with the TOTJO logo and sell them to the temple members - use the money to support their hosting

Streen wrote: I would think that a place like TOTJO would bend certain rules when there are many people out there who have been Jedi much longer than this site has even existed.

If not, oh well. I'll go on teaching as I always have. I'm not saying all this for my own benefit anyway. I want to help. That's all.

I'm becoming more and more proud that they don't bend the rules. I don't see what the big hurry is. You can "teach by example" with or without a title. I've learned from guests here, too. It's just a matter of perspective.

I would think that a place like TOTJO would bend certain rules when there are many people out there who have been Jedi much longer than this site has even existed.

Prove your the type of person someone should bend rules for.

Again, so what that you have been a Jedi longer than this place has been here?

So far, you have posted links to other sites, and on behalf of someone who likened current Jedi groups to Pedophilia. By your own admission, you have not been an ally.

Since the past is so important then, and not the present, what in your past actions here, makes you think you deserve to have the rules bent for you?

More, you have proven they shouldnt be.

However, present actions(what you do now)....Perhaps not unlike Kit has just mentioned....could change that.

Whether or not rank is important, or even the IP,what is the problem with earning your place in some way instead of simply expecting it?

Streen wrote: I'm not asking to be made a Master. Personally I don't believe in "Jedi Masters". "Mentor" would be a better word, but I don't expect to be labeled as such officially here without doing some work. ... If not, oh well. I'll go on teaching as I always have. I'm not saying all this for my own benefit anyway. I want to help. That's all.

My only question is what is it that you would like to do that you can't now? I can understand feeling that people will only take what you have to say seriously if they see a rank bar underneath your avatar, but are those people truly deserving of the wisdom that you would impart? (you could argue that they might be in more need of it) If you wish to help people I say that you can regardless of rank. You can't formally have a student at TOTJO but you can certainly impact the lives of the people here.

That said, I would say to go through the IP. Do it the long way. I plan to go through it all again after my apprenticeship is officially ended. (I say officially because Edan will always be my teacher ) If for no other reason than to see how you might have changed since you last did the same or similar work.

Or your paintings start making painted portraits with the TOTJO logo and sell them to the temple members - use the money to support their hosting

Yes, we do not allow posts for sale for personal profit...

We do not allow posts for fundraisers...

We do not allow ANY pleas for money...

I even do my best to not do it about donations for totjo... From anyone, although I feel a challenge coming up on that, lol...

The reason is, we all have worthy causes to our heart, and we cannot give to them all... So, we ask that none get posted...

I recieve no personal gain (monetary), and br John, receives no personal gain (monetary), we do get the 'job well done, hopefully it is helping someone' satisfaction, and honestly, for me that is enough...

If the founder is not making a profit in any way, why should someone be able to hawk wares for personal profit?

We do have the "Swap Meet" forum, but, it is not for garage sales or auctions...

We also have a TOTJO eBay, in case anyone doesnt know, and Kamizu has donated the last few items up for bid as her way of donating to totjo...

Anyway, just a quick blurb on that... Please copy me and start a new thread if you have other questions...

Tellahane wrote: If there was something like that, an application and test followed by an interview and any supporting documents you could possibly do it that way.

Sure, the hard part of the IP is the watching, listening or reading...

At this point, I could go elsewhere, and write these topics without even re-watching them, and could theoretically do our IP in a day or two without stress, write up my credentials, and submit myself to an interview...

We still have the 60 day thing, but Streen has been a member longer than that, so that doesnt affect him...

Then there is the apprenticeship, yes, this part is tougher to get through, but, it is not the end of the world... I mean, Ive been kind to Kitsu SO far, lol... But, she isnt new either, and right now, we are just chatting, although this is a busy month for me, so not quite as much as I like to talk, I hope to step that up before long,

My son spent a year at a private school, only to transfer to another school, and was told all those hours in the religion classes dont transfer, so the credits dont count... Thats just how life is sometimes... Take what we can, deal with the rest, lol...

At this date, however, we have no procedure (as Alex and some others how I am about protocol... I didnt think C3-Po was my idol, but, it looks more and more like he is, lol...

Kitsu wrote: but I tend to notice that the best way to help is to simply pick something out that you see needs help with and do it. Submit it for review and Ta Dah!

Typically, we do ask for our Knights to be in areas of responsibility, but, that has been bent by the dedication others have shown... Recently, Jedi_Roz was ask to run the eBay, and she was an apprentice.... Edan was ask to be the Youth Officer as an apprentice.... Plokoon is working on an offline thing, as an apprentice... tzb helped with the totjo member map as an apprentice...

rugadd put together a small booklet (still waiting on mine brutha! lol) like a pocket totjo book... as a Novice...

And, seriously, lets NOT forget the impact guests like Khaos and Gisteron have... I love these two guys, despite occasional head-bumping... I even find that fun, lol...

Or even Mortose, and Hannigan before their banning...

Everyone has an affect on everything... It is the way of the world...

Watching the few rules/policies we do have, of course...

Kistu wrote: Yea...there was once. Ambassador roles. Way back in the day I was an Ambassador here at TOTJO. (Edit: I guess I should say...Old Old OLD Totjo haha) I did exactly what I do now....Work on providing history, handling interaction between communities and alerting everyone about new gatherings...

We are all ambassadors of ourselves, and antwhere we call home, be it virtual, or physical...

We (Council) did discuss Ambassadors here, and really, saw no need...

I happen to be one at TOTJF, lol...

hiddeninthesnow wrote: I'm becoming more and more proud that they don't bend the rules. I don't see what the big hurry is. You can "teach by example" with or without a title. I've learned from guests here, too. It's just a matter of perspective.

Right...

We have at least two college professors, both seeking their doctorate, and never once have they said anything about their previous training, except in a offhand way... Both are now knights... They did the IP...

Not to mention the scores of college educated people (I am not one, stay in school kids!!) going throgh the same system...

I can see both sides, but, as Edan said earlier:

Edan wrote: The issue is that once you make that allowance for one, it opens doors that may be difficult to close.

And, we are not wanting to open that door...

Jestor wrote: I mean, Ive been kind to Kitsu SO far, lol... [/color]

Shhh!! Don't ruin our reputation of being at eachothers throats! No one must know!

And, seriously, lets NOT forget the impact guests like Khaos and Gisteron have... I love these two guys, despite occasional head-bumping... I even find that fun, lol...

Since this has been brought up.

I have also been around longer than TOTJO, since were throwing that around. Most other places, I lead the various Dark forums in some capacity. Even at other Jedi sights, I am part of councils that make policy. I have irrevocably changed the Dark path to what it is in its current form.

So. What.

None of that matters. It really doesnt. Not here especially at a Jedi site with little regard for the Dark path( in fact, some hold it in disdain and ridicule)I also do not go to new Dark orders and talk about how long I have been on the path and that I should be in some position of higher influence.

I earn my place wherever I go, online or off, with what I like to think is current quality content, and actions.

Keep in mind that there are several areas not available to me simply because I am a guest.

However, I understand that I will not meet certain criteria, and so ,will not be allowed access.

I have no shortage of influence, or a voice here, or do not feel as if I do.

I do moderate myself to a degree, if only so that I can continue to have voice here in some capacity.

I work extremely well within my limitations here. I do not expect rank, favors, or rules to be bent, in fact, I have been temporarily banned no less then three times.

Doesnt matter how long I have been around.

I have received no special privileges, nor do I expect any simply for being around a long time.

Or for past actions that have nothing at all to do with this place, here and now.

I, for one, would find it interesting to see how Jedi who have been along for a long time go through the IP and other training programs here, and how their answers differ from mine. Probably would be beneficial for those of us who haven't been around as long, I would think.

TheDude wrote: I, for one, would find it interesting to see how Jedi who have been along for a long time go through the IP and other training programs here, and how their answers differ from mine. Probably would be beneficial for those of us who haven't been around as long, I would think.

every new perspective is new information to absorb....

RyuJin wrote:

TheDude wrote: I, for one, would find it interesting to see how Jedi who have been along for a long time go through the IP and other training programs here, and how their answers differ from mine. Probably would be beneficial for those of us who haven't been around as long, I would think.

every new perspective is new information to absorb....

Well ya know dude, one must abide... But ryujin and many others could go through the IP and submit corrections, improvements, etc. So really there's no harm in starting over but there is a benefit if one can help to make it better.

I find myself in the same boat where the IP has changed since I began and so I'd need to repeat it all but I know a bunch of stuff now that noobs don't so maybe I can see something they don't and get it fixed or whatever...

Br. John wrote: Someone could graduate from Harvard Law School with Honors. They could practice law for 20 years in New York then serve as a judge on the state supreme court there for 10 years. They decide to move to Texas and want to open a law practice. To get a licence to be a lawyer in Texas they still have to pass the Texas Bar Exam (which unfortunately does not cover how to make a perfect vodka martini).
.

but he doesn't have to go back to law school. Maybe he will have to learn some about Texas laws? He is tested to see if has the knowledge to practice law in Texas basis and to determine if his past experiences and education is adequate. They recognize his past experiences. If he fails he has to study up on his weakness but he doesn't start from scratch.

Rickie wrote:

Br. John wrote: Someone could graduate from Harvard Law School with Honors. They could practice law for 20 years in New York then serve as a judge on the state supreme court there for 10 years. They decide to move to Texas and want to open a law practice. To get a licence to be a lawyer in Texas they still have to pass the Texas Bar Exam (which unfortunately does not cover how to make a perfect vodka martini).
.

but he doesn't have to go back to law school. Maybe he will have to learn some about Texas laws? He is tested to see if has the knowledge to practice law in Texas basis and to determine if his past experiences and education is adequate. They recognize his past experiences. If he fails he has to study up on his weakness but he doesn't start from scratch.

That is not true. All of us in a professional capacity have to continue our education. Even Lawyers/Judges. Yes he would have to test for the Texas Bar but he would still be required to continue his study.

As a College Professor I have to continue my education, I'm currently working towards a Masters and after that a PHD. As part of my Masters in Anthropology I have the opportunity with my father who is a minister to visit the Holy Land. What I can learn by actually visiting those places and bring back to the classroom is vital and required for me to share.

As for here, I support the Rank system in place. I support the education programs. Remember people this whole thing is free. The few of us behind the scenes that help with this are all volunteer. No one is making money here, yes there is always room for improvement, however being a an Educator myself and having gone through the IP and then Apprenticeship I feel was an incredible part of this temple and the dedication of the people in it. Yes its not for everyone and that's okay too.

When I got to meet my teacher face to face and talked we laughed and carried a conversation on for three hours straight with one bathroom break in between. Why? Because we have a shared experience here that we have done together and worked through. We were meeting as equals and that was never more apparent to me than that night. It didn't matter that he was a Knight and I was an Apprentice, we were two Jedi talking about being Jedi and laughing about trivial Jedi things together. I hope that is something we can do again in the future and that I can meet up with a few more folks to giggle about more Jedi things.

Do the program. Earn your place. Or not. That is fine too. If you don't want to climb the ladder that is fine and a lot of great folks contribute at the Member and Guest level. If you go up in rank you get more responsibility, hence the reason for going through our program, so we are all on a level playing field.

All of us in a professional capacity have to continue our education.

Yes we do. No argument there but that was not the point I was attempting to make.

Continued education is not the same starting law school from scratch. In fact I believe anyone can sit for the bar exam? No formal education required? The test determines if one has sufficient knowledge to be a lawler. Please if some one knows better about the bar exam speak up.

This is my point.

Yes he would have to test for the Texas Bar

This thread, and the thread about rank, makes me think that say, martial arts masters, must practice the basics. Why is it a problem to do so on a Jedi forum too?

Edan wrote: This thread, and the thread about rank, makes me think that say, martial arts masters, must practice the basics. Why is it a problem to do so on a Jedi forum too?

I don't think that what I'm about to put here will hold much ground, but I'm going to throw out another real world example of something, and see what people think about it.

So in the world of emergency medical services, there are usually 3 basic licenses at the state level. Emt-Basic, EMT-Intermediate, and EMT-Paramedic. Here in Illinois I'm a licensed EMT-I and I'm a licensed EMT-B in wisconsin. For a period of time those who lived close to two states, in order to work from one state to the next, lets say since I live close to the indiana border if I wanted to also go work at a job in indiana as an intermediate, I have to not only re-test, but I have to re go through practicals and prove that I can do all the interventions I'm trained for. This was the way it was for majority of the states up until a few years ago.

After awhile there was a problem of if you wanted licensed in multiple states having to do this over and over every couple years, while helpful if you were really working 2 or more jobs where you had to have licenses in multiple states you are already getting enough hands on experience, and have to do renewal practicals anyway every year that its deemed excessive to have to continue to do that.(It was also cost prohibitive, it required testing equipment you had to have those qualified to teach present to do the testing, it can consume 8-20 hours per person to go through it all depending on license level, and your doing it once a year per job you have annually anyway in addition to that testing, there just wasn't enough staff around to constantly do that when that staff could be teaching other new students and then the cost for the actual sessions were very expensive too(in some cases for paramedics it can be as high as $1,000 for national registry level sessions).

After awhile of realizing that, came the national standards. Not every state has adopted it yet but there is a curriculum and standard which is usually a higher/harder test that if you pass you can get a license with nothing but the licensing fee in I think 42 of the states that has adopted it right now. For example I also hold a national registry standard for EMT, I can walk into the Missouri office give them my nremt-b card and and a check and they hand me a license without having to go through all the testing because the national standard is a higher standard then most of the states and a level everyone kind of agrees with.

So to put that into a jedi practical statement, it would be the equivalent of the various jedi communities coming together and putting together a list of requirements that everyone agreed on of what makes a knight a knight, a combination of minimums essentially and if someone achieved those minimums could be considered a knight rank in any given community. Now is that likely to happen, no. For 2 big reasons, 1, the chances of everyone agreeing with their different philosophies is probably pretty darn low, and 2. The "title" and "label" of knight has different responsibilities and roles within each community, it would be hard to just let someone in and assume they are going to instantly pick up those responsibilities if they are focused on another community of their own.

So I don't see anything like that happening soon, but I did want to give a valid example for the other scenario of where someones status and experience does and has required to be carried over from state to state/community to community.

Tellahane wrote: After awhile of realizing that, came the national standards. Not every state has adopted it yet but there is a curriculum and standard which is usually a higher/harder test that if you pass you can get a license with nothing but the licensing fee in I think 42 of the states that has adopted it right now. For example I also hold a national registry standard for EMT, I can walk into the Missouri office give them my nremt-b card and and a check and they hand me a license without having to go through all the testing because the national standard is a higher standard then most of the states and a level everyone kind of agrees with.

So to put that into a jedi practical statement, it would be the equivalent of the various jedi communities coming together and putting together a list of requirements that everyone agreed on of what makes a knight a knight, a combination of minimums essentially and if someone achieved those minimums could be considered a knight rank in any given community. Now is that likely to happen, no. For 2 big reasons, 1, the chances of everyone agreeing with their different philosophies is probably pretty darn low, and 2. The "title" and "label" of knight has different responsibilities and roles within each community, it would be hard to just let someone in and assume they are going to instantly pick up those responsibilities if they are focused on another community of their own.

I do not want to sound hard.. but some stuff to back your theory up. :side: I remember I have asked for a poll a good wile back, Br. John himself made it happening. (Not expected that he would, still was fun to see :blush:)

Like a dream come true! 5 9.6%
I support! 11 21.2%
I am neutral! 20 38.5%
I do not support! 12 23.1%
I do not support at all! 4 7.7%
Total number of voters: 52

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/107956-jediism-connect-multiple-communitys-and-orders-please-read-every-post-bevore-posting

Tellahane wrote: ,,"label" of knight has different responsibilities and roles within each community, it would be hard to just let someone in and assume they are going to instantly pick up those responsibilities if they are focused on another community of their own.''

So you say that one community rank can not be compared with a other community rank? Can fully agree with that

Back to very experienced Jedi Steen, want to take part in the process according to his topic title. He asked where he should where in he should begin. I am not sure if I can add something because I already made my point in previous posts.. But if I may ask you, how do you like to see yourself in several years? What would you improve on a personal level?

Tellahane wrote:

Edan wrote: This thread, and the thread about rank, makes me think that say, martial arts masters, must practice the basics. Why is it a problem to do so on a Jedi forum too?

I don't think that what I'm about to put here will hold much ground, but I'm going to throw out another real world example of something, and see what people think about it.

So in the world of emergency medical services, there are usually 3 basic licenses at the state level. Emt-Basic, EMT-Intermediate, and EMT-Paramedic. Here in Illinois I'm a licensed EMT-I and I'm a licensed EMT-B in wisconsin. For a period of time those who lived close to two states, in order to work from one state to the next, lets say since I live close to the indiana border if I wanted to also go work at a job in indiana as an intermediate, I have to not only re-test, but I have to re go through practicals and prove that I can do all the interventions I'm trained for. This was the way it was for majority of the states up until a few years ago.

After awhile there was a problem of if you wanted licensed in multiple states having to do this over and over every couple years, while helpful if you were really working 2 or more jobs where you had to have licenses in multiple states you are already getting enough hands on experience, and have to do renewal practicals anyway every year that its deemed excessive to have to continue to do that.(It was also cost prohibitive, it required testing equipment you had to have those qualified to teach present to do the testing, it can consume 8-20 hours per person to go through it all depending on license level, and your doing it once a year per job you have annually anyway in addition to that testing, there just wasn't enough staff around to constantly do that when that staff could be teaching other new students and then the cost for the actual sessions were very expensive too(in some cases for paramedics it can be as high as $1,000 for national registry level sessions).

After awhile of realizing that, came the national standards. Not every state has adopted it yet but there is a curriculum and standard which is usually a higher/harder test that if you pass you can get a license with nothing but the licensing fee in I think 42 of the states that has adopted it right now. For example I also hold a national registry standard for EMT, I can walk into the Missouri office give them my nremt-b card and and a check and they hand me a license without having to go through all the testing because the national standard is a higher standard then most of the states and a level everyone kind of agrees with.

So to put that into a jedi practical statement, it would be the equivalent of the various jedi communities coming together and putting together a list of requirements that everyone agreed on of what makes a knight a knight, a combination of minimums essentially and if someone achieved those minimums could be considered a knight rank in any given community. Now is that likely to happen, no. For 2 big reasons, 1, the chances of everyone agreeing with their different philosophies is probably pretty darn low, and 2. The "title" and "label" of knight has different responsibilities and roles within each community, it would be hard to just let someone in and assume they are going to instantly pick up those responsibilities if they are focused on another community of their own.

So I don't see anything like that happening soon, but I did want to give a valid example for the other scenario of where someones status and experience does and has required to be carried over from state to state/community to community.

I'm wondering if I didn't word myself very well... I'm not saying that the 'basics' need to be agreed by everyone although I would imagine that for most groups the basics would be very similar... I was only suggesting that in other areas where practice is required, I would think that most would not be afraid of practising [whatever they consider to be] the basics...

I'll give you an example.. I play the piano reasonably well.. but even I still practise arpeggios and scales to remind myself.. go back to simpler pieces to provide a groundwork for more complicated ones. I see going back to basics as a good way to keep the ground on which you build everything else strong.

I agree with Edan. I keep coming back to this:

tzb wrote: Our definition of Jedi here doesn't include opportunities for learning being a "waste of time".

The idea that repeating study is (ever) a waste just proves the point that not all definitions of "Experienced Jedi" are equal. See also the many Knights and Masters here who repeat the IP regularly.

Returning to our foundations is not only useful, it is essential. It keeps us honest. It helps us relate to those working through it for the first time. It allows us to pour our paths back into our study - what I take from those texts now runs far deeper than what I found in them first time out.

It stops us declaring ourselves "great Jedi" because we feel we've "got there". I believe the best Jedi never "get there". They continue their journey.

If Streen completed the IP and was my Apprentice there'd be no re-inventing the wheel. The IP is a golden opportunity for Streen to contribute by his review and critique of it. The IP is not an indoctrination. He can argue and editorialize on the merits or explain why some parts are not good. He can say why something should be changed, eliminated or added. And anyone doing the IP is urged to do this and know that it's fine do disagree as long as you support your position.

If Streen were my Apprentice his assignments would mostly be exactly what he's wanting to do. Much of the work would things like posting a lecture on an agreed topic with questions and answers from Members and Guests. Creating an assignment for another Knight's Apprentice (with the OK of the teaching Knight). Teaching a group seminar on an agreed topic. See where I'm going?

Without breaking or bending the rules (we'll walk right through the middle of them) Streen's wish is GRANTED. I'm delighted to have the chance to work with him on this.