The Problem with Black Lives Matter

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12 Jan 2020 17:19 - 12 Jan 2020 17:20 #348332 by OB1Shinobi
This was a pretty cool video by a channel im beginning to love. Its called “Can Black Lives Matter and Law Enforcement Co-exist?”


If you cant breath then none of us can.
Last edit: 12 Jan 2020 17:20 by OB1Shinobi.
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16 Jan 2020 16:39 #348460 by ZealotX

OB1Shinobi wrote: This was a pretty cool video by a channel im beginning to love. Its called “Can Black Lives Matter and Law Enforcement Co-exist?”


Great video. And I've seen other videos before from this same channel. A lot of good stuff.


When they invoked MLK I think he does represent a lot of people who feel the same way and I think this is often why many people don't understand the whole BLM mindset. They are looking through a lens of how things "should be" rather than seeing how things are. And they don't really have to see how things are and no one can make them. So when it comes to the way others should react they can invoke MLK but when it comes to their own conscious or unconscious bias, this same guy starts talking about crime statistics.

But wait! I don't remember any statistics in MLK's dream. It was all content of character. The only reason to bring up crime stats is to justify prejudicial treatment of minorities. If you're going to invoke MLK then you should be acting like those statistics do not exist and whoever you are stopping is equally innocent until proven guilty. Isn't justice supposed to be blind for the sake of fairness and equality? But some of the same people who claim not to see color, often see color when it is convenient to do so; or when they get scared as if being scared makes it okay.

It is that same element of fear that makes a police officer dangerous to anyone (of any race/gender/ethnicity) they are stopping and/or chasing. However, if an officer is predisposed to fear of certain types of people this may not show up on a test he has to take in order to wear a badge. And as far as statistics, there are statistics too which tells us what happens to blacks four times more often. And it isn't simply about "this cop is a racist" but rather how much an officer is influenced by racism itself (talking about the whole construct and its support by society). How much is that cop aware of crime statistics? How much does that officer equate black people with poverty and the desperate behaviors poverty can produce? How many black stereotypes has this officer heard and is subconsciously influenced by? How many jokes about black people has this officer heard and chuckled if not laughed at? How much does an officer understand that the thug persona is often a mask used to help young black men survive and cope with their own fear?

It's not simply about what color you but how much you are affected by racial issues and how much you understand the people you are policing whether they are White, Black, Hispanic, or Asian.

That's why it makes sense that the police should come from the communities they are policing. No, that wouldn't fix everything. But at least it would be better. I don't want to be policed by guys who have never had an extended conversation with a black person. Has he lived MLK's dream in his personal life? If so, then we should be able to tell from his social media. There should be at least one black person who can vouch for him or her. That, I would be okay with. But if someone from that person's personal life could file a report and say they overheard something then no, I would feel safer if that officer was moved to a white community. It's not necessarily about a person's color. It's about their experiences and how they contribute to their implicit and explicit biases.

And as much as we can all talk about MLK and his dream there are still black communities and white communities and public schools funded by the tax dollars of the communities they're in. So I hear that... and it's good, but we also have to consider where we currently are as a society so that we can figure out how to get to where we want to be. Because we are not there yet. This is not the mountain top.

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18 Jan 2020 02:14 #348504 by ren
Cops fear criminals and criminals fear cops. They're all armed to the teeth, further justifying that fear. It has got nothing to do with race, statistical discrepancies are not a product of outright racism, but a byproduct of historical racism.

Cops go after criminals. Criminals are likely from a poor or cop-hating background. People are poor or hate law enforcement because of injustices. Historically, major injustices were committed in perfect legality against large groups of people over multiple generations, often on the basis of their skin colour, national origin.

States/cities could easily create a new class of cop, unarmed, dressed in high visibility gear, and create a new class of crime to legally protect these special officers and severely punish anyone who harms them. And perhaps stop treating the law like it's god's most sacred creation on earth.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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20 Jan 2020 14:12 #348577 by ZealotX

ren wrote: Cops fear criminals and criminals fear cops. They're all armed to the teeth, further justifying that fear. It has got nothing to do with race, statistical discrepancies are not a product of outright racism, but a byproduct of historical racism.

Cops go after criminals. Criminals are likely from a poor or cop-hating background. People are poor or hate law enforcement because of injustices. Historically, major injustices were committed in perfect legality against large groups of people over multiple generations, often on the basis of their skin colour, national origin.

States/cities could easily create a new class of cop, unarmed, dressed in high visibility gear, and create a new class of crime to legally protect these special officers and severely punish anyone who harms them. And perhaps stop treating the law like it's god's most sacred creation on earth.


Saying it has nothing to do with race I think is an assumption that cannot fairly be made. Recent history has shown that it's more than just fear. I know there are racist people because I know people with racists in their families. If some of them are cops then it is what it is. They can't suddenly put racism on the shelf when they put that uniform on and you only have to listen to the Mark Fuhrman tapes to know how much racism intertwines with law enforcement. This idea that people don't bring themselves, their personality, their habits (good or bad), etc. into their jobs... just doesn't hold water. Police officers are people. And some people are racist just like some people are obese. Yes, it is true.

You may not see it because you can't see racism like you can see obesity. Racism is more like an STD. If you aren't in a position to have sexual relations with someone who's infected you may not know they have an STD and even then, you may not know unless they disclose it to you. And do they tell everyone? No. They'll tell you if they trust you or if they feel like you need to know. That's how racism is. It's not something everyone is proud of because everyone knows that society views it as ignorant and backwards thinking. This is where class warfare comes in because a lot of people don't want their culture being dictated by socially conscious, politically correct, "elites". So yes, they would like to be openly racist but they know they can't. They're not stupid. Saying something racist in public is like a crime in and of itself; a social crime. Therefore, these "criminals" simply say these things among themselves. Not every crime is done in broad daylight. Even if a drug deal is done in broad daylight its usually a very private sort of transaction. Again... that's how racism is. So if you expect every racist to show you their card, they're just not gonna.

That said, it is true that criminals are armed to the teeth. This is why our gun laws don't make sense (to me). Because the more you arm, the more everyone else is going to arm up too. Criminals aren't going to shoot you with arrows when they know you have muskets. Criminals are not going to carry muskets when they know you have a 9 mm. The more deadly the weapon you allow people on one side to have the more people on the other side will upgrade to compete. But neither side MAKES the weapons. They just buy them and use them. Which means there is one party that always benefits from everyone's desire to upgrade. The same thing happens among nations. Nations feel like they have to acquire more missiles and bombs because of the missiles and bombs another nation has. And there is always one party that benefits; the party that makes the weapons and the people who are invested in those companies. And they are the ones who lobby against gun laws and they are the ones who don't make weapons with better security to prevent them falling into the wrong hands. Why? Because they don't want to tip the balance of power in favor of the criminals OR the non-criminals. Because then people would feel safer and therefore buy less guns.

Last but not least, I love your idea about different kinds of police officers in different uniforms. I think this is a very smart (part of the) solution. A soldier is trained to kill. So when you send in soldiers to be police you're running a risk that they will fall back on their soldier training. Then you have SWAT. They don't get sent in on domestic violence calls either. When a call is dispatched there should be a threat level associated with it. I would suggest having dedicated teams for non-violent offenses armed with non-lethal weapons; stun guns, etc. Most importantly, I would give them kevlar guards and an arm mounted shield.

You could have other teams and do something even like the combo soldiers where one had the shield and the other a sword or spear. This way you could send in the person with the shield out in front, to block and talk, while the second officer's job is to protect the first, shooting back if necessary. I think being armed with shields and non-lethals is perfectly fine and wouldn't force non-violent criminals to carry more violent or deadly weapons. A lot of these criminals would give up peacefully if they didn't fear for their lives.

I know there are already police officers who specialize in homicide or theft. I think it would be a good idea to create new specialties. And allow weapon manufacturers to create the next generation of non-lethal solutions for a new generation of non-lethal cops. Otherwise, being armed to the teeth is just going to remain normal and criminals don't use their weapons only on cops. The same way cops currently view every suspect as a deadly threat, criminals view everyone that way because everyone could have the same deadly weapon that they're carrying. So the freedom to be armed to the teeth isn't making us safer.

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20 Jan 2020 19:30 - 20 Jan 2020 19:32 #348590 by JamesSand

I love your idea about different kinds of police officers in different uniforms.


We introduced a role for police officers that specialises in helping you find good latte places. It seems to be going well.




I can tell never from reading this posts (and other stuff on the internet) If I really do just live in a completely different world, (I've had the odd run in with cops, and they are dicks as often as not, but I wouldn't say they are half a dozen shiny rocks away from ripping the earth in half.....) or if the people writing things have an agenda that might skew the facts a little....
Last edit: 20 Jan 2020 19:32 by JamesSand.

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02 Jun 2020 15:45 #352441 by ZealotX
Unfortunately, with everything going on it brings me back to this thread, back to how easy it is to attack Black Lives Matter based on misunderstandings and then use those misunderstandings as justification not to hear the message, not to commit to any action, to pretend like BLM was saying, on behalf of black people, that these injustices were only for black people to care about. It really seemed like any conclusion people could jump to in order to say "this isn't inclusive enough" was athletically jumped to. Do you recognize that not everything is about the white majority? Do you understand that the reason no one added "too" at the end was because they weren't thinking about what they needed to do in order to gain your approval? Do you think people need to ask your permission before they protest what they perceive to be happening to them?

I am just a voice crying in the wilderness

In an age of Social Justice Warriors, BLM was attacked, literally for not being politically correct enough. Because it didn't include whites in something that was impacting blacks. Whites do suffer some instances of police brutality. No one is saying they don't. But they're also the majority so we would expect them to be impacted in greater numbers; especially when they are more likely to not be afraid of the police and often hurl insults, spit, and whatever else, but in many cases are handled with kid gloves. When a minority is impacted in greater numbers than the minority then you have to ask "what is it about this group that the police tend to be more violent and more aggressive and more likely to kill?" Does it simply follow that they are policed more? Or maybe they're even policed more because police tend to patrol their areas more, looking for probable cause. Arrests = $. Fines... tickets... court appearances... all equate to money earned for their department. We all know it. The question is where would they rather take it from? Their community? Their friends and neighbors? The judge's friends and neighbors? The prosecutor's friends and neighbors? The governor's friends and neighbors? No.

The attacks against BLM is part of the problem. Trust me. Do I want to offend anyone here? Hell no! I absolutely love and respect you guys. All of you; even those I may clash with from time to time. I still think highly of them. And we can all agree to disagree. But maybe, just maybe... we can understand each other a little better. And maybe we can learn to hear each other a little better even though the conversation isn't the most comfortable or the most inclusive. I understood how great BLM was because I understood the anger and rage and fear and terror that it was restraining at the same time. Some people asked, well why couldn't BLM control each and everyone of the protesters? Why were some people out of line?

I'm sorry... truly. But most people have children who at some point get out of line even though they know they might be punished. BLM was never fully in control of anyone; nobody is. And it is a fools errand to think otherwise. That's the difficulty of organizing events like this. You think you're in control? No. You try to create the illusion of control but these are adults who have their own minds and some of them have their own agendas. Does it mean then that you don't do what you know is right because someone out there might take advantage? If I see a kid in need of help do I first stop to consider what his parents are doing and whether or not he's a good kid? No. You just help. Not because of who they are, but because of who you are. And if you don't want to help then just be honest about why. Period. Have you ever organized a protest? No? Well then you don't know the risks or how difficult it is. Do you? No, you don't. Let's be honest about that. It's not about blame or embarrassment. It's about understanding and the fact that people withhold understanding because there is something in the message or the messenger that they fundamentally don't like or don't agree with. And trust me, people see that. And they can tell. They can feel that lack of love, care, respect, and empathy. They can feel it. When you're on the giving end of that you feel nothing and that's the problem. But on the receiving end... you feel the void of where you know love should be.

And so a lot of black people internalize that feeling and it creates more separation and distance and anxiety. They're not victims. They're angry. They're angry because every time they get abused, they get told that they need to get over it, pull themselves up by their boot straps, and stop playing the victim or the race card. They're told this by people with little to no experience being abused because of their race by someone in a position of power or authority. They're told this by people who created the TSA to deal with a singular terrorist event that the majority doesn't want repeated and yet... these events... George Floyd being only the most recent, seems to happen far too often and rarely are their consequences. Their killers usually literally get away with murder and us knowing that... the black community knowing that... creates a sense of terror. Because in a situation with an officer you don't know, you don't know how they're going to see you. Are you a thug in their eyes? Or are you a college professor? Are you a corner boy? Or are you an engineer? Do you have a car they can't afford because you earned it? Or is it because they think you stole it? You don't know what you are in their eyes. So every encounter becomes a roll of the dice. What kind of person am I dealing with? Is it an officer of the law? Or a crooked cop? As you profile me, I'm profiling you. That street goes both ways.

Except that, If I'm scared of you I can't shoot first and ask questions later. I can't shoot you in the back. I can't execute you while my friends are holding you down. Except I don't have power given to me by the state. I'm happy for everyone who doesn't have to go through life worrying about whether they or someone in their family will meet the wrong badge on the wrong day. That's good for you and so I'm happy for you. But the same people who are supposed to protect me... might be the only ones in this whole world who want to kill me.

By using a star wars reference I hope no one thinks it is any less serious but think about how many storm troopers died on the death star. They were obviously the military arm of the state. They had the authority given to them to do everything that they did. But because of corruption they were used in ways that a "few bad apples" made the whole orchard look bad and so how many people felt good when the death star exploded? That's when the heroes had won; not because they were trying to kill as many soldiers as possible but because the death star was a literally a planet killing threat to the galaxy. But... hold on. Who was the death star being used against? Those who went along with the emperor? Or those who resisted? Those who rebelled?

I submit that at any moment, any of those storm troopers could have protested and perhaps detonated the death star themselves. Why didn't they? What was it that caused them to go along with the program and what happened in the mind of Finn, that he could not? Conscience? Is that all it takes? An awakening of conscience? In many cases the minority is oppressed while the majority goes along with it because its not affecting them. They don't feel it. We need to break free of that mindset. Ever stopped to consider that if it's happening to a black person it's happening to you because you're also a person? If it's happening to a black person have you ever stopped to consider that its happening to you because you're also (for those who are) a US citizen? So what is it, let's really pause and think, what is it that would make you feel like what happens to black people ISN'T happening to you? What would make you feel that you're NOT included? Because you're not black?

But isn't that... racist?

selah.
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02 Jun 2020 17:19 #352443 by steamboat28
I'm watching this discussion carefully.
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03 Jun 2020 00:39 - 03 Jun 2020 01:26 #352465 by Adder
I don't think it's racist, just unnecessarily discriminatory (not in the social 'rights' sense, but in the technical 'difference' sense). If you want all folk to recognize the universality of the crime, then focusing on the target groups unique attributes does not help with that universality. Which is why the 'human life matters' concept tried to point out that it was Police brutality as the inappropriate action, which meant the reason for that action could stand clear for what it was; racism. For blurred meaning/lines don't help, but.... at the end of the day it's just a different way of saying the same thing, which some people think might have worked better, and some disagree.

Because lets face it, its not really white people getting the most racism from Police, so clearly distinguishing racist Officers would in theory address the problem.... while also allowing those who have trouble letting go of it (due to upbringing or whatever) to focus on appropriate action despite their racism. Because if there is no Police brutality or discriminatory behaviour, then the problem is resolved regardless of what beliefs the Officer might have. Obviously an ideal world wouldn't have any racism.... but people aren't usually professional enough to process proper checks and hold their coworkers to account. If only the leaders actually led, rather then trying to sound like it.

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Last edit: 03 Jun 2020 01:26 by Adder.
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03 Jun 2020 21:56 #352493 by ZealotX

Adder wrote: I don't think it's racist, just unnecessarily discriminatory (not in the social 'rights' sense, but in the technical 'difference' sense). If you want all folk to recognize the universality of the crime, then focusing on the target groups unique attributes does not help with that universality. Which is why the 'human life matters' concept tried to point out that it was Police brutality as the inappropriate action, which meant the reason for that action could stand clear for what it was; racism. For blurred meaning/lines don't help, but.... at the end of the day it's just a different way of saying the same thing, which some people think might have worked better, and some disagree.

Because lets face it, its not really white people getting the most racism from Police, so clearly distinguishing racist Officers would in theory address the problem.... while also allowing those who have trouble letting go of it (due to upbringing or whatever) to focus on appropriate action despite their racism. Because if there is no Police brutality or discriminatory behaviour, then the problem is resolved regardless of what beliefs the Officer might have. Obviously an ideal world wouldn't have any racism.... but people aren't usually professional enough to process proper checks and hold their coworkers to account. If only the leaders actually led, rather then trying to sound like it.


Brother Adder,

If we only say "the victim was a human", and remove the context of race, what you are asking us to do is ignore racism and pretend it doesn't exist.

Oh what a world it would be (although humans would find other things to separate themselves to feel superior-like wealth/class) if the PERPETRATORS of racism could do that!

But if the perpetrators of racism SEE that person as black, and someone out there sees that black man die from a knee to his neck, and says "that's awesome, one less piece of s---" then that's RACIST. And you cannot address racism while pretending there is no racism. You cannot get rid of racism with the only ones who care about race are the victims and perpetrators.

Guess what? And I say this with all due respect and with love. Some people are sexist. Some people have been culturally programmed to think men are superior and therefore treat women as inferiors. You cannot take that battered wife's gender out of the equation. If you say, "oh he's just a jerk", you are missing the fact that he's only a "jerk" to women. And guess what, my brother. What happens when no other man can say he's a jerk because they never experienced that so-called jerk being a jerk to them? Does it mean he's not a jerk? How is he held accountable then? How can he be held accountable if every male is able to defend him and say he's not a jerk because he never treated them the same way?

Do you understand?

Instead of trying to take race out of it, you need to pretend you are that race... put yourself in the shoes of a black man. Live in those shoes. Ask why you're being treated differently than your white counterpart? Ask why, you're being stopped and your white counterpart isn't. Ask why, even though you make a good living and are far from poverty, you are suspected of being a criminal? Ask why, when YOU go to a park and see a white woman with her dog off the leash and you are a known bird watcher in Central Park, ask why you cannot ask her to put her dog on the leash without her threatening to call the police and TELLING YOU that she will lie to them and say you were trying to assault her or possibly kill her, because she knows by doing that YOU might get shot.

Imagine you're a university professor arrested entering your own home because someone called the police on you. There are things that happen because of the color of the person's skin that WOULD NOT HAPPEN if their skin was the "right" color.

There is story after story for you to read and ask, what if YOU were black. I know a few white mothers who have black children and they are outraged too because that could have been their child who was murdered in broad daylight by police over a single fake $20 bill that he may not have known was fake.

Empathy is not, "let me make you into me, or take away what makes you different." Empathy is feeling what that person feels, to the extent that you can, as if what was happening to them, is happening to you. And what I asked in the last post, which wasn't directed at anyone so it wasn't personal, is why does that seem so hard for people? Yes, George Floyd was black. But he was also a man, also a human, also a US citizen. Every person on earth is at least one of these things. So why does it seem so difficult?

Everyone should understand that in no way am I trying to cast blame on anyone who is not directly involved in one of these MANY stories of racism. Some people feel blamed. But if you weren't a slave owner, slave trader, black face wearing minstrel, etc. If you treat people equally and don't think your race is superior, then there is no blame that I am sending your way. We are all responsible to FIX things for the future; to make a more perfect union, to love each other, to help each other, to support each other. The more we ignore each other's struggles the further we get from the lofty goals that we set for our society. I wasn't there in the past so I couldn't have done anything in the past to make the future better. But I am here now and I can have conversations and I can write my congressman and I can raise awareness in the hopes of adding to political pressure. I can try to make people think about these issues and the importance of them so that when a friend says something racist they'll know how to respond. I can only dream.

But if you try to reduce racists to simply "not nice people" then you can easily acquit them of almost any charge resulting from their actual racist tendencies because plenty of people (who all happen to be white...) as in "a jury of his peers" could easily say he or she has never been that way towards them. And this is often how cops are acquitted because their friends back them up. And if their white friends don't take racism seriously then it makes it easier for them to make excuses for the racist and make it easier for the racist to operate. And without consequences there is no correction for his racism.

So unless your desire (and I say this purely in a hypothetical sense) is to protect racists and racism, I don't know how what you propose makes any sense. At least not to me.

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