The Problem with Black Lives Matter

steamboat28 wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Siptah wrote: For the record my avatar showing a man hanging from a tree represents the sacrificed god, Odin to be exact.

Are you a white nationalist?

Please do not conflate white nationalism, racism, or any other bigotry with reverence of this patheon.

At first, i didnt think anyone here would conflate them.... then i was reminded of how silly this place gets sometimes and i came back and thanked you for this important clarification lol

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: As a black man, I want to say, it's ok to be white.

The reason why most whites don't feel their privilege or don't notice the systemic racism is because technically it doesn't exist.

To explain, the system now is not like the various state systems of old. The laws themselves aren't race specific. In fact they're pretty colorblind now. There's been over a century of work to see to that. The system itself operates in an oppressive way though. Where the law is used to control instead of rectify. Depending on the person using the law, or other parts of the system. You may or may not see examples of "privilege" or "supremacy".. and there are various forms of those two. Jewish, White, Christian, Muslim, etc..

Then there are those "cult"ures just said. The different bubbles, and the powers that shape and control them along with it. Every group has a Group Think bubble. Fear and sensationalism are used to maintain them. Superstition, Pride, Zealotry, and probably more. There a billions, all trapped between whichever bubble(s) they identify with. All interacting with each other. In a lot of ways, being used against each other. When it serves someone's "higher purpose".. I believe we are all connected by a web that some know how to manipulate to their advantage. Maybe they're creating knots to capture people just to magnify their own radiance. I don't know, but people are being moved. The low man and the high. The world is being.. steered.. somehow.. there's a shadow growing.. and it seems.. artificial..

Also, European culture has contributed greatly to our species. As have African, Asian, and Mesopotamian cultures. They've also each done their fair share of atrocities. I believe that's part of the growth process for sentient beings though. We can learn from our ancestors and we should..

Whether its the marxists or nazis or the illuminati or the zionists or the reptilian overlords from the draco nebula lol, theres definitely forces out there stirring up the pot to get us at each others throats.
How does a person protect his own throat without falling into the trap of becoming a hostile force himself?
Who do we try to bring together and under what banner?

Luthien wrote: Indeed. Odin hanged himself. lol

:DEAD: :laugh:

OB1Shinobi wrote: How does a person protect his own throat without falling into the trap of becoming a hostile force himself?
Who do we try to bring together and under what banner?

What helps me is remembering that we're all really the same and share the same sentient nature. We're all mind, soul, and body. With a little breath of spirit. "We contend not against flesh and blood.." so we shouldn't fight against people necessarily I guess. It helps defense to understand what's really going on. Like being mindful of the "here and now" like some would say lol

I know everybody isn't in that mindset constantly or even a regular basis. A lot of folks are like sheep, unfortunately. They're easily manipulated sometimes..

.. as far as who.. what banner.. I'm not sure.. even some jedi are concerned more about being jedi than "The Force"..

@OB1Shinobi

I think we are reaching common ground. This has been a real discussion and I'm thankful to have had it with you. You came with honesty and sincerety and I respect you more today than I did even before this discussion. I want you to know that I heard you. And I mostly agree with you.

I understand that sentiment. Its very frustrating for me to be told how privileged and oppressive i am, especially by people who have never even met me.

The way we talk about race makes it difficult to exclude individuality. In other words, You've heard the saying "if the shoe fits, wear it". But at the same time the saying implies that if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. It's not your shoe. Both sides say "white people" and "black people". And even though many people do not fit the description that's being attached it's hard not to get defensive because for better or worse we identify with our races. So I feel you. I bought a Fast Lane pass at Kings Island; an amusement park. OB1.... OMG. I felt like I was a king for a day. I didn't feel bad because I paid for this privilege that everyone else "could have" purchased... if... they could afford it. That's an important caveat. My Fast Lane pass allowed me to get into a different line for pretty much all the roller coasters in the park. So while people were waiting in line for 15min, 30min , an hour, I walked right by them and got on the ride in about the time it took to walk there. I've never felt so privileged in all my life. The feeling was visceral. Why? Only because I had been here many times before and I knew what it was to wait. People don't always see or feel the privilege they have. We have privilege as Americans that many people in my family don't have because they live in another country. To give you an idea 1 Jamaican dollar today equals 0.0080 US Dollars. So we're all privileged to a great degree, but you might not feel it or see it until you have the opposite experience. I've been to Jamaica several times. When I went there as a kid we always stayed where my dad grew up; in the country. Zinc rooftops everywhere. One TV channel. Of course by that time my dad and uncles had contributed enough money to build their mother a better house but only better in the sense that it was concrete. It wasn't even painted. We're privileged even in comparison to people living 200 years ago. They didn't have computers or smart phones or Star Wars. So why not feel privileged? In fact, if I had a Fast Lane pass and I occassionally got in the regular lines and complained it would be an insult to those who don't have that choice. So that's why I love my country and proud to be your fellow American. I just know we can do better in a lot of ways and we're constantly evolving through the conflict of ideas.

And this is where we are going ot have a major area of disagreement because it seems like you want to apply this standard to whites but not to blacks.

That may be how it looks on the surface, but that's not how I feel. If it was I wouldn't choose to be any place in which my race was a tiny minority. I never asked you to defend white people in general or whites with different issues. That would be ridiculous and hypocritical. I'm in this thread to defend Black Lives Matter. And in doing so I've had to defend other black people and the idea that BLM as a group is composed of individuals just like you. When you hold the entire group accountable for what certain individuals do or say or believe... how is that not the very ideology powering racism? And this is why BLM and future protests are needed because its not about protesting in an manner acceptible to the majority. It's about raising awareness to the fact that many white police officers treat black people differently and this is statistically proven. No one said that the police ONLY shoot unarmed black men. No one said that ONLY black men are the victims of police brutality. But the reason we have statistically gotten it worse is because of racism. It's because of racial profiling-which almost NEVER means that the suspect is a white male. The police target us more because we don't have power. They know they can get away with it. And it has been happening for literally generations.

Women... same thing... not every man is sexist. Not every man mistreats women. It's a power dynamic that some people exploit. When in positions of power people can become corrupt. Who's in the greatest positions of power? That happens to be white men. The MeToo movement is mostly about the struggle for women's rights to be treated fairly. It's very well done. I don't think Terry Crews thought he'd be included but it doesn't change the fact that the victims are mostly women. All of these social issues intersect. POWER. There are those who have it and those who do not. But its not binary. A policeman has more power than a gang member but not more than a judge. A federal judge has more power than a state judge. But this is balanced by the people because of the democratic process. That process doesn't always work for minorities which is why the minorities protest. In the Roy Moore case, even though Republicans on the hill believed the women, thousands of people in Alabama flat out said no they did not believe them and those women were lying. Even though they were republican. There is a problem in our society where we allow people to be victimized and then we don't want to listen to them when they're talking about our guy or our party or our "whatever" (insert cognitive bias here).

Its not "black people" its radical leftists...and usually what they say is "whites are a virus that murdered the natives, enslaved the blacks, built empires all over the world and oppress everyone else for their greed and power-trip" ..

After thinking about it I can't argue with that. I don't know that I would call them leftists either as if it is a party position. What I do know is that many cultures used the term "white devil" because that was their experience. The fact is that when Europeans came to this country the inhabitants helped them survive (hence Thanksgiving) but they ended up on reservations. Children played "cowboys and indians" reinacting the hostile takeover of ancestral lands. The forced relocation of the "Trail of Tears" resulted in thousands of Native Americans dying. And now lets run oil pipelines through your land which might (and did) contaminate your water. Whites are not a virus. However, many people don't seem to care what their group does and their group does it only because they believe the people in their group are okay with it. And they think that as long as your gas prices go down a few cents you will be okay with what they do and never speak out and you'll continue to vote the way they want. It is that perceived attitude that different cultures are repulsed by. Most of these wars and the loss of life that follows can be traced to financial interests. But are whites really the villians? Or are the main villains people who happen to be white but who are part of other groups that distinguish them; groups much more related to the repulsive actions they take? Or are we all simply villians to other people busy pointing fingers at each other?

When you say "we" are you speaking for all black people?

The second I use "black people" to refer to every last person who happens to be considered black is the day I become racist against my own people. So no, I think this is part of the problem with how we (all) use and understand racial terms.

I remember when I was a kid. I used to say I was brown. Technically, that is still correct but the view of racism my younger self had really and naively wanted to simply ignore the existance of racism and racial stereotyping. The problem with that is that I could be brown to myself but I would always be black to a racist. And then as I got older it was the fact that "my people" were being so mistreated that it was impossible for me not to identify with them as a group. Being black is more than just a color. It's a culture and a shared experience. Part of that experience are the FEELINGS and EMOTIONS that accumulate from all the negative interactions we have with those who look down on us, who judge us by the color of our skin instead of the content of our character.

Those people are everywhere (as you can see even here in this thread) and so these negative experiences happen everywhere and all the time. Siptah feels justified in saying the things he does because of the experiences he's had. I'm sorry he's had negative experiences but to judge all of us based on those negative experiences as if one race is better than the other creates the very negative experiences that accumulate negative emotions for us. And the difference is that we're not the majority which means we protest and speak truth to the power. We are not the power.

(cont'd)

Just want to make this clear: i have ZERO white guilt and i have contempt for whites who do. I 100% refuse to take any responsibility for the actions of people who i dont know and cannot influence. Especially if they were dead before i was born lol...such an obvious concept to which so many are absolutely oblivious.

GOOD! That means you take responsibility for the people who you know and CAN influence. That means you're not personally part of the problem. You're part of the solution. And that means anything black people say about "white people" isn't referring to you. If the shoe doesn't fit you must acquit. Sorry, bad joke. But seriously, comedians talk about racial groups all the time and most people laugh because its not meant as an attack. It's also not totally inclusive. When someone is joking we understand their intent is not to cause harm. So when they talk about "black people" they're not saying "oh yeah, I've polled 100% of the black population and this is what they all do." Likewise, no one has ever polled 100% of the white population and tapped some buttons on a calculator and came up with the idea that all whites are oppressors. That's not what anyone means. And I guess at times we have to communicate back and forth to understand what we both mean. Because the intent is getting lost in the criticisms. The intent of BLM... lost in the criticisms (which is why I defend it). One could say "how could so many people support an accused pedophile?" The allegations were super credible. For black people the question is "how could so many white people hate us?" And for some it is hate. For others it is based on limited contact with poor and/or uneducated black people. For others its not about blacks at all, but about making sure that power and wealth stay in their community, party, social circles, golf club members, lodge, fraternity, etc. Many of these things are created for the very purpose of discriminating on the basis of money, race, or gender. Black people's frustration is because you guys are in the majority. You could, in our minds, simply vote to change everything. It's not that simple, I know personally. But everyone doesn't understand how hard it is when your democracy has really been hijacked by the wealthy elites. They treat the rest of us like pawns because they're in life's fast lane and they (speaking in general) often become corrupted by that power and privilege.

Exactly. People who have never met me are attempting to tell me that my identity is as an oppressor. I know me better than you know me, and im not accepting that identity, or compromising with people who want to impose it upon me. We were friends until you started this bullshit lol (not you personally but in general)

I am not confering blame to you personally. Please understand. I had an African apologize to me for his family's role in slavery. He didn't have to do that. He wasn't personally responsible. They didn't know what was going to happen to us because although slavery was practiced by every culture every culture did not treat slaves as subhuman or as livestock. I had no hard feelings towards him. It's not like he did it personally. And its not like it was personally done to me. I'm simply put at a disadvantage because of it. This is not a disadvantage that you have. Therefore, by definition you are at an advantage. You didn't ask for that advantage. You were simply born with it. It's not your fault but you can use that advantage for good or evil. But you have it. Black people don't necessarily have a problem with white privilege. Black people have a problem when those who have white privilege take a nice big dump on those who don't or don't care about life on the other side. Not everyone has a silver spoon. But some people don't even have a plastic spoon (metaphorically). Acknowledging the difference and showing love and respect to the people who have no spoons is the first step in (metaphorically) bending the spoon, doing the impossible, ending racism and white supremacy. No one is asking you (at least not in general) to accept a racist identity. I ask nothing from you at all except to treat me with respect and humanity just like I treat you. We may not always agree, but I don't see you as a group/crowd/race/etc. I see you as an individual.

White privilege isn't some magical thing. It is simply what comes with being part of the majority. Homosexuals are not privileged either except when they're being judged as white, not gay. When it comes to their sexuality they are judged as wrong/bad/evil/sinful/etc. to the point where their lives are harder and they often choose to hide who they are because of the very real fear of how they will be treated and discriminated against. People don't even want to bake them a wedding cake. How petty is that? I know nothing about that experience because I'm not one of them. But when I was kid I laughed at all the same gay jokes and I would have been considered homophobic.

If i am responsible for what other white people do then youre responsible for what other black people do. We are either ALL responsible for ourselves, or we are ALL responsible for our entire racial groups. Actually, we are just responsible for ourselves.

I don't disagree. However, in my naive chivalristic beliefs, it is my personal opinion that the strong should protect the weak, that men should protect and honor women, that the society should fight injustices on behalf of those who cannot, that rich should take care of the poor, that we should care for those with addictions and mental health issues, that we should treat others the way we would want to be treated and defend others the way we want to be defended. You can't do any of this for all people. You can only do it for those you can and those you come into contact with. Societies have to evolve. Do I expect homosexuals to spend their time, money, and energy protesting issues that affect everyone equally? No. Even though BLM includes homosexuals and transgendered people in their guiding principles I expect them to protest issues that affect them disproportionately; things that make their lives harder specifically while a coalition of groups and people protest issues that affect the entire coalition and just like America as a whole stands up to other countries and cultures that threaten our way of life. Homosexuality can be hidden to some degree. Nationality can be hidden to some degree. Try hiding your skin color. Racism is an injustice. Attacking people trying to attack racism, in my opinion, is analagous to defending racism. The people who say BLM isn't doing it right aren't telling us the best way to do it, nor are they supporting the cause. They're starting their own better protests. They're not protesting the police at all. They're supporting the police and supporting politicians who want to give the police even more military equipment. The enemy of my enemy is my friend but what does that make the friend of my enemy? And if they're not friends with my enemy then why are they attacking me when they se me fighting back against my enemy? Why?

On this point i will admit that i have seen in myself and in others a reflexive tendency where when someone implicates me as being a privileged oppressor i regard that as an attack and instantly take on an oppositional frame of mind. This makes me MUCH LESS inclined to acknowledge any point, even valid points, from the person who has attacked me. I have made a real effort at understanding oppression in USA and i am much more sympathetic to the plight of blacks than my posting here might suggest, but like ive said before, im not compromising with people who want to apply their own version of racism to me.

I believe you. And you and I are human, prone to the same issues. We all get defensive. We all have a harder time hearing and understanding. And when it comes to judgment I'm not innocent. In the past I judged homosexuals because the bible told me that God hated it. I was wrong, not them. Because I no longer subscribe to that God I no longer subscribe to an ancient set of morals and dogma. But even though I didn't directly oppress any homosexuals I was still responsible, not for ALL bigotry, but for my own position, for the people I could have influenced and didn't, for the good I could have done but didn't. There are some things in the bible that still resonate with me. "Am I my brother's keeper?" This is a question we struggle with as a HUMAN race. And it is a question that transcends all groups. The answer to that question is another question. "Who is my neighbor?" "Who is my brother?" It's not fair to expect you, as an individual, to be responsible for racism. Racism is a social virus that passes from person to person. By definition racism involves two groups. One to be inferior which by definition makes the other superior. If I blamed all white people I wouldn't be a member on this site where I know black people are a small minority.

How old are you? I would find your argument more compelling if it were based on your personal experience of not being allowed to do what whites are allowed to do, rather than... something that ever happened to you.

Am I old enough to be a former slave? No, unfortunately my ancestors can no longer speak for themselves. They worked, survived, fought back, resisted, struggled, overcame, lived, died, all so that I could be here to have this conversation and give them a voice. That voice will at times be offensive, but that isn't my intent. I believe my ancestors weren't violent savages and many might think. Many loved the families they were forced to serve. And many masters set many slaves free because they loved them. My blood has their blood too. On my mother's side there was a slave master who lied on behalf of one of his slaves. His voice deserves to be heard too. I can't speak for 100% of black people but we both know that's not what any of this is about. No one can speak for the entirety of a race because race itself isn't real. There's literally no substantial difference other than beliefs.

(cont'd)

Yes this is true, and man, my heart really does go out to the injustice of it. But its also less true now than it was fifty years ago and (unless the race-baiting marxist agitators get what they want and make us all MORE racist towards each other) it gets less true with every generation.

There may be agitators on both sides. I've only seen them on one. I'm happy to entertain evidence but its hard for me to concur with "race-baiting marxist agitators" because I honestly don't know enough to say. You may be correct and a lot of us just don't see what you see. I also agree though that things have progressed. People have progressed. Black people used to be openly lynched by regular citizens, not even cops. We used to be afraid of white hoods and burning crosses. Things are definitely better. Absolutely. But we can't stop working for progress because that progress didn't happen on its own. It happened because black people, white people, jews, gentiles.... people raised awareness and influenced a reaction from the majority. And its that pressure from the voters that makes progress in the laws. I don't agree with everything BLM says or wants, but I FEEL where they are coming from. They accomplished a great feat. They were heard, not just by a nation, but they were heard internationally. And if they made even one cop think twice, if they have even saved ONE life by their protests, then for me it was all worth it. BECAUSE black lives matter. And so does white lives and LGBTQ lives. But the problem is that white lives were never in question. White cops don't choose to shoot a white person because they're white. And if a black cop shot a white suspect because of the color of their skin I would want that cop to be sent to prison. I simply seek one standard for all.

The solution is the same now as it was then: black people getting degrees and having successful careers in bedrock institutions such as law (cops, lawyers, judges) medicine, education, banking, infrastructure development, military (as officers) and government (as elected officials). Thats it. Thats always been the the solution to discrimination and its always been an uphill struggle. Its easier now than it has ever been, but (more than ever before) a lot of black people seem to want to make enemies of the white people that are otherwise on their side, by accusing us of being racist oppressors. gtfo lol

You're right! That is 100% the solution. While that's happening, cops shouldn't be able to execute black people because of their racist views. They should be held accountable. Schools shouldn't be able to discriminate. Access to education prevents many of us from achieving successful careers. It devestates hope. It removes the perception of choice. Banks shouldn't be allowed to keep blacks out of "white" neighborhoods. Public education shouldn't be worse than a 3rd world country just because the money is concentrated into wealthier neighborhoods. And if they don't live near those of us who can afford to live there (meaning communities of economic parity) then how will they ever know who we are and trust us to help manage their businesses? When we have equality I promise we will collectively stfu. We're just not there yet. Man if I told you about the struggles of my fiance trying to move up in her career you probably wouldn't even believe me. Don't get me wrong. Things are better than before. And there have always been great people who were white, who stood up against the system. We're (majority) not looking for enemies but friends. We protest because we want those in the majority and those in power to hear our pain. We want America to be better because we know it can be. We believe in that majority otherwise there would be no point in protesting.

When people i hate me i will see them as a threat and an enemy, and i will oppose them. Want me to stand with you, or against you? (again, this is a general "you", not you in particular)

Same here. The difference is that black nationalists don't go around shooting up white churches because that's not what even they want. Even the hatred of the most radical black person in the New Black Panther Party (very different from the original) would evaporate if they didn't feel hated and abused. The reason for their hate isn't skin color. It's the LONG history of actions of people who not only share that skin but make it into a superior product. I don't agree with them but I understand their FEELINGS. All whites are not the same and have never been the same.

Whites are not unified at all. The only whites who even want to be unified (on the basis of whiteness) are the actual white supremacists.. and the more that the left pushes against "whites" as if we are a unified group, the more that the white supremacists and the white nationalists begin to look like justifiable movements. If you want to create MORE racism in the world, the way to do that is by promoting racist ideas such as the idea that all whites are racist and only whites can be racist.

This is a brilliant statement. I agree. Now I want you to flip this whole thing. Blacks are not unified at all. The only blacks who even want to be unified (on the basis of blackness) are the actual black supremacists.. and the more the right pushes against "blacks" as if they are a unified group, the more that the black supremacists and the black nationalists begin to look like justifiable movements. I've been part of movements trying to unify black people for economic empowerment. Why? Because if we can't get economic power from the regular model and our education, crime, housing, businesses, jobs, etc. all depend on economic growth and power... then why not practice "group economics" just like other minority groups. We are the only minority group that doesn't put their money together to take care of themselves. And its because we're not unified. We're black to those who aren't black. But to each other we're just people. Just like whites, to each other, are just people. One day I hope we can all just be people.

ONLY RACISTS see people as being unified by their race.

my younger more optimistic self would agree with this. My older self cannot ignore the racism experience by my people. Therefore, we become unified by the struggle of being black in America. It's not just because we have black skin because black skin murders black skin all the time. But we are unified through a shared experience. Whites would never be unified as "former slave masters" because that would be wrong and ridiculous. A vast MINORITY of whites were slave owners. But for slaves it was different. Especially since our families were literally torn apart that made us more of a family.

The problem is that cops are allowed to kill people and get away with it. Not that they are allowed to kill black people. A free pass to murder American citizens is inexcusable, regardless of the race of the citizens.

I agree 100%. I don't think anyone wants cops to kill people and get away with it. Sometimes a cop kills a person and it has nothing to do with race at all. It's wrong either way. But the targeting of African Americans is an additional issue. The criminal justice system's targeting of black people is an additional issue. If you want to remove race I would agree with this statement: "cops should not be allowed to discriminate". We can say that without stating a color or gender or sexuality. But BLM is protesting discrimination, not just killing people. Whether or not you say who they are discriminating against is not as relevant as the fact that they are (and some have admitted) discriminating. We didn't make up the word "racial profiling". That was and is a practice of many jurisdictions. But if we're looking at one issue (police brutality) from a macroscopic lens... you're not going to see change. How do I know? Because we haven't seen change. People just quietly go missing and we, as a general mass of Americans, don't notice them enough to do anything about it. What groups were talking about it on the national stage and calling for reforms? And there comes a point were you can't wait around for the majority to notice a problem that affects you disproportionately. The LGBTQ community shouldn't wait for the majority to treat them as human beings. Nor can they say "stop oppressing people in general". No... you have to be specific to stop specific actions. But agree with a lot of what you have said and appreciate your patience in this conversation. I love you. I respect you. May the Force be with you.

Siptah wrote: Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.
---Miyamoto Musashi

Musashi also said “You must cultivate your wisdom and spirit. Polish your wisdom: learn public justice, distinguish between good and evil, study the Ways of different arts one by one. When you cannot be deceived by men you will have realized the wisdom of strategy.”

Your "truth" is not necessarily the "truth" Musashi was speaking of in that quote you used. The actual "truth" contains both sides of this issue, whether either wants to admit it or not.

I want to apologize for my tantrum earlier in the thread. Mostly I’d like to say sorry to ZealotX. I made some bad assumptions about your arguments and had some bad associations on this subject because of past history trying to discuss it.

In any event, that said, I do think that people should be treated equally regardless of skin color, nationality, etc. It is one’s choices that matter, not one’s birth circumstances. I do think that there is a major problem surrounding this issue in the U.S. and other places the world over. Many things do need to change. I just question how some people are going about their attempts to affect change.

@Lykeios

I really appreciate that. I don't remember everything I said to you but if I said anything you perceived to be offensive I'm also sorry.

What you said about past history is, in my opinion, very important. First, that's not something I can hold against you. What's important to me is that there is a logical reason for it. And the truth is that there are experiences on both sides that, if applied to others, helps to perpetuate racism and the bad feelings attached to it.

For example... there are plenty of black people with really bad experiences. Because of that some of them advocate total separation, going back to Africa, anti-police chants, defense, etc. There are guys who talk about white people being "the devil" because they compare the hell that slaves had to go through with the very idea of "Satan" as an adversarial force. These are reactions. Most disagreements imo turn into arguments and fights because both sides react and feel justified in their reactions. At some point we can just end up reacting to each others reactions and lose sight of the original disagreement. I don't agree with the black people who overreact but I understand their feelings and why they're overreacting. I don't agree with the white people who overreact and I understand to some degree why. It is unfair to be linked with hate and injustice and horrible offenses when you do not stand for these things. At the same time it is unfair to be linked to criminal behavior just because you have a certain color of skin and when crime is, much more intellectually honest, linked to economic disparity.

There are blacks who go out of their way to ignore crime in the black community. Why? Is there a link between black crime and white people? There is. However, are white forcing anyone to sell drugs? They're not. What people do to survive is what it is but you can't excuse self-destructive behavior. Bill Cosby addressed these issues, not just in speeches, but through his TV shows. But part of the reason why there are blacks who go out of their way to ignore the crime or responsibility is because of the blame and attachment where so many whites associate the criminal activity in the black community to "being black" rather than being born and raised in a very low economic status.

Meanwhile... while we're throwing stones at each other and turning each other into the enemy the rich are judging the poor as a group and the biggest warfare is class warfare.

@Siptah

Honestly, it makes you come off as more of a troll than anyone to be taken seriously. I thought about addressing your insults point by point but that would probably serve as a diversion from the adult conversation taking place. You will not be able to provoke racial animosity here; bait all you like.

Instead I will reiterate what I've been saying. PEOPLE have done many good things trying to stop racism. Many of those people happened to be white and many of those people happened to be black. Ignoring the contributions on either side is a display of ignorance. These people ignore contributions to the world such as Africa being the birth place of all humans, Africans creating language, math, art, science, etc. And yes, Egyptians were "black" as well even though the height of their civilization existed before the idea of race was invented. And we can talk about how the Moors influenced invention and technology in Europe and where Algebra, for example, came from, and were surgery came from, where video game cartridges came from, where some of the technology that created the internet came from, and many other things commonly taken for granted today. But all of that would be missing the point.

...That we are all people who are not defined by how we look. Racism exists because of people trying to assign positive traits to themselves through the use of a false premise while assigning negative traits to others by the same token so that they can feel superior to them. They have to convince themselves of this racial propaganda in order to gain a social advantage from other whites they deceive by convincing them that blacks are a common threat. Manipulating people's fears works but it is very cowardly. But this is why racists tend to be very fearful and uneducated individuals who spread racism like a virus to other fearful, ignorant, and uneducated individuals. That kind of think simply wont work here

This was a pretty cool video by a channel im beginning to love. Its called “Can Black Lives Matter and Law Enforcement Co-exist?”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6rDvbQ-mz4&t=217s

OB1Shinobi wrote: This was a pretty cool video by a channel im beginning to love. Its called “Can Black Lives Matter and Law Enforcement Co-exist?”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6rDvbQ-mz4&t=217s

Great video. And I've seen other videos before from this same channel. A lot of good stuff.


When they invoked MLK I think he does represent a lot of people who feel the same way and I think this is often why many people don't understand the whole BLM mindset. They are looking through a lens of how things "should be" rather than seeing how things are. And they don't really have to see how things are and no one can make them. So when it comes to the way others should react they can invoke MLK but when it comes to their own conscious or unconscious bias, this same guy starts talking about crime statistics.

But wait! I don't remember any statistics in MLK's dream. It was all content of character. The only reason to bring up crime stats is to justify prejudicial treatment of minorities. If you're going to invoke MLK then you should be acting like those statistics do not exist and whoever you are stopping is equally innocent until proven guilty. Isn't justice supposed to be blind for the sake of fairness and equality? But some of the same people who claim not to see color, often see color when it is convenient to do so; or when they get scared as if being scared makes it okay.

It is that same element of fear that makes a police officer dangerous to anyone (of any race/gender/ethnicity) they are stopping and/or chasing. However, if an officer is predisposed to fear of certain types of people this may not show up on a test he has to take in order to wear a badge. And as far as statistics, there are statistics too which tells us what happens to blacks four times more often. And it isn't simply about "this cop is a racist" but rather how much an officer is influenced by racism itself (talking about the whole construct and its support by society). How much is that cop aware of crime statistics? How much does that officer equate black people with poverty and the desperate behaviors poverty can produce? How many black stereotypes has this officer heard and is subconsciously influenced by? How many jokes about black people has this officer heard and chuckled if not laughed at? How much does an officer understand that the thug persona is often a mask used to help young black men survive and cope with their own fear?

It's not simply about what color you but how much you are affected by racial issues and how much you understand the people you are policing whether they are White, Black, Hispanic, or Asian.

That's why it makes sense that the police should come from the communities they are policing. No, that wouldn't fix everything. But at least it would be better. I don't want to be policed by guys who have never had an extended conversation with a black person. Has he lived MLK's dream in his personal life? If so, then we should be able to tell from his social media. There should be at least one black person who can vouch for him or her. That, I would be okay with. But if someone from that person's personal life could file a report and say they overheard something then no, I would feel safer if that officer was moved to a white community. It's not necessarily about a person's color. It's about their experiences and how they contribute to their implicit and explicit biases.

And as much as we can all talk about MLK and his dream there are still black communities and white communities and public schools funded by the tax dollars of the communities they're in. So I hear that... and it's good, but we also have to consider where we currently are as a society so that we can figure out how to get to where we want to be. Because we are not there yet. This is not the mountain top.

Cops fear criminals and criminals fear cops. They're all armed to the teeth, further justifying that fear. It has got nothing to do with race, statistical discrepancies are not a product of outright racism, but a byproduct of historical racism.

Cops go after criminals. Criminals are likely from a poor or cop-hating background. People are poor or hate law enforcement because of injustices. Historically, major injustices were committed in perfect legality against large groups of people over multiple generations, often on the basis of their skin colour, national origin.

States/cities could easily create a new class of cop, unarmed, dressed in high visibility gear, and create a new class of crime to legally protect these special officers and severely punish anyone who harms them. And perhaps stop treating the law like it's god's most sacred creation on earth.

ren wrote: Cops fear criminals and criminals fear cops. They're all armed to the teeth, further justifying that fear. It has got nothing to do with race, statistical discrepancies are not a product of outright racism, but a byproduct of historical racism.

Cops go after criminals. Criminals are likely from a poor or cop-hating background. People are poor or hate law enforcement because of injustices. Historically, major injustices were committed in perfect legality against large groups of people over multiple generations, often on the basis of their skin colour, national origin.

States/cities could easily create a new class of cop, unarmed, dressed in high visibility gear, and create a new class of crime to legally protect these special officers and severely punish anyone who harms them. And perhaps stop treating the law like it's god's most sacred creation on earth.

Saying it has nothing to do with race I think is an assumption that cannot fairly be made. Recent history has shown that it's more than just fear. I know there are racist people because I know people with racists in their families. If some of them are cops then it is what it is. They can't suddenly put racism on the shelf when they put that uniform on and you only have to listen to the Mark Fuhrman tapes to know how much racism intertwines with law enforcement. This idea that people don't bring themselves, their personality, their habits (good or bad), etc. into their jobs... just doesn't hold water. Police officers are people. And some people are racist just like some people are obese. Yes, it is true.

You may not see it because you can't see racism like you can see obesity. Racism is more like an STD. If you aren't in a position to have sexual relations with someone who's infected you may not know they have an STD and even then, you may not know unless they disclose it to you. And do they tell everyone? No. They'll tell you if they trust you or if they feel like you need to know. That's how racism is. It's not something everyone is proud of because everyone knows that society views it as ignorant and backwards thinking. This is where class warfare comes in because a lot of people don't want their culture being dictated by socially conscious, politically correct, "elites". So yes, they would like to be openly racist but they know they can't. They're not stupid. Saying something racist in public is like a crime in and of itself; a social crime. Therefore, these "criminals" simply say these things among themselves. Not every crime is done in broad daylight. Even if a drug deal is done in broad daylight its usually a very private sort of transaction. Again... that's how racism is. So if you expect every racist to show you their card, they're just not gonna.

That said, it is true that criminals are armed to the teeth. This is why our gun laws don't make sense (to me). Because the more you arm, the more everyone else is going to arm up too. Criminals aren't going to shoot you with arrows when they know you have muskets. Criminals are not going to carry muskets when they know you have a 9 mm. The more deadly the weapon you allow people on one side to have the more people on the other side will upgrade to compete. But neither side MAKES the weapons. They just buy them and use them. Which means there is one party that always benefits from everyone's desire to upgrade. The same thing happens among nations. Nations feel like they have to acquire more missiles and bombs because of the missiles and bombs another nation has. And there is always one party that benefits; the party that makes the weapons and the people who are invested in those companies. And they are the ones who lobby against gun laws and they are the ones who don't make weapons with better security to prevent them falling into the wrong hands. Why? Because they don't want to tip the balance of power in favor of the criminals OR the non-criminals. Because then people would feel safer and therefore buy less guns.

Last but not least, I love your idea about different kinds of police officers in different uniforms. I think this is a very smart (part of the) solution. A soldier is trained to kill. So when you send in soldiers to be police you're running a risk that they will fall back on their soldier training. Then you have SWAT. They don't get sent in on domestic violence calls either. When a call is dispatched there should be a threat level associated with it. I would suggest having dedicated teams for non-violent offenses armed with non-lethal weapons; stun guns, etc. Most importantly, I would give them kevlar guards and an arm mounted shield.

You could have other teams and do something even like the combo soldiers where one had the shield and the other a sword or spear. This way you could send in the person with the shield out in front, to block and talk, while the second officer's job is to protect the first, shooting back if necessary. I think being armed with shields and non-lethals is perfectly fine and wouldn't force non-violent criminals to carry more violent or deadly weapons. A lot of these criminals would give up peacefully if they didn't fear for their lives.

I know there are already police officers who specialize in homicide or theft. I think it would be a good idea to create new specialties. And allow weapon manufacturers to create the next generation of non-lethal solutions for a new generation of non-lethal cops. Otherwise, being armed to the teeth is just going to remain normal and criminals don't use their weapons only on cops. The same way cops currently view every suspect as a deadly threat, criminals view everyone that way because everyone could have the same deadly weapon that they're carrying. So the freedom to be armed to the teeth isn't making us safer.

I love your idea about different kinds of police officers in different uniforms.

We introduced a role for police officers that specialises in helping you find good latte places. It seems to be going well.




I can tell never from reading this posts (and other stuff on the internet) If I really do just live in a completely different world, (I've had the odd run in with cops, and they are dicks as often as not, but I wouldn't say they are half a dozen shiny rocks away from ripping the earth in half.....) or if the people writing things have an agenda that might skew the facts a little....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/tvshowbiz/video-2183136/Video-LL-Cool-J-shares-powerful-rap-George-Floyd-racism.html?fbclid=IwAR0W2_yr3WjHXsbDj_LFD5KYISsERxR11TgCl-GGwglkAzRYiOEuBGhZrZA

Unfortunately, with everything going on it brings me back to this thread, back to how easy it is to attack Black Lives Matter based on misunderstandings and then use those misunderstandings as justification not to hear the message, not to commit to any action, to pretend like BLM was saying, on behalf of black people, that these injustices were only for black people to care about. It really seemed like any conclusion people could jump to in order to say "this isn't inclusive enough" was athletically jumped to. Do you recognize that not everything is about the white majority? Do you understand that the reason no one added "too" at the end was because they weren't thinking about what they needed to do in order to gain your approval? Do you think people need to ask your permission before they protest what they perceive to be happening to them?

I am just a voice crying in the wilderness

In an age of Social Justice Warriors, BLM was attacked, literally for not being politically correct enough. Because it didn't include whites in something that was impacting blacks. Whites do suffer some instances of police brutality. No one is saying they don't. But they're also the majority so we would expect them to be impacted in greater numbers; especially when they are more likely to not be afraid of the police and often hurl insults, spit, and whatever else, but in many cases are handled with kid gloves. When a minority is impacted in greater numbers than the minority then you have to ask "what is it about this group that the police tend to be more violent and more aggressive and more likely to kill?" Does it simply follow that they are policed more? Or maybe they're even policed more because police tend to patrol their areas more, looking for probable cause. Arrests = $. Fines... tickets... court appearances... all equate to money earned for their department. We all know it. The question is where would they rather take it from? Their community? Their friends and neighbors? The judge's friends and neighbors? The prosecutor's friends and neighbors? The governor's friends and neighbors? No.

The attacks against BLM is part of the problem. Trust me. Do I want to offend anyone here? Hell no! I absolutely love and respect you guys. All of you; even those I may clash with from time to time. I still think highly of them. And we can all agree to disagree. But maybe, just maybe... we can understand each other a little better. And maybe we can learn to hear each other a little better even though the conversation isn't the most comfortable or the most inclusive. I understood how great BLM was because I understood the anger and rage and fear and terror that it was restraining at the same time. Some people asked, well why couldn't BLM control each and everyone of the protesters? Why were some people out of line?

I'm sorry... truly. But most people have children who at some point get out of line even though they know they might be punished. BLM was never fully in control of anyone; nobody is. And it is a fools errand to think otherwise. That's the difficulty of organizing events like this. You think you're in control? No. You try to create the illusion of control but these are adults who have their own minds and some of them have their own agendas. Does it mean then that you don't do what you know is right because someone out there might take advantage? If I see a kid in need of help do I first stop to consider what his parents are doing and whether or not he's a good kid? No. You just help. Not because of who they are, but because of who you are. And if you don't want to help then just be honest about why. Period. Have you ever organized a protest? No? Well then you don't know the risks or how difficult it is. Do you? No, you don't. Let's be honest about that. It's not about blame or embarrassment. It's about understanding and the fact that people withhold understanding because there is something in the message or the messenger that they fundamentally don't like or don't agree with. And trust me, people see that. And they can tell. They can feel that lack of love, care, respect, and empathy. They can feel it. When you're on the giving end of that you feel nothing and that's the problem. But on the receiving end... you feel the void of where you know love should be.

And so a lot of black people internalize that feeling and it creates more separation and distance and anxiety. They're not victims. They're angry. They're angry because every time they get abused, they get told that they need to get over it, pull themselves up by their boot straps, and stop playing the victim or the race card. They're told this by people with little to no experience being abused because of their race by someone in a position of power or authority. They're told this by people who created the TSA to deal with a singular terrorist event that the majority doesn't want repeated and yet... these events... George Floyd being only the most recent, seems to happen far too often and rarely are their consequences. Their killers usually literally get away with murder and us knowing that... the black community knowing that... creates a sense of terror. Because in a situation with an officer you don't know, you don't know how they're going to see you. Are you a thug in their eyes? Or are you a college professor? Are you a corner boy? Or are you an engineer? Do you have a car they can't afford because you earned it? Or is it because they think you stole it? You don't know what you are in their eyes. So every encounter becomes a roll of the dice. What kind of person am I dealing with? Is it an officer of the law? Or a crooked cop? As you profile me, I'm profiling you. That street goes both ways.

Except that, If I'm scared of you I can't shoot first and ask questions later. I can't shoot you in the back. I can't execute you while my friends are holding you down. Except I don't have power given to me by the state. I'm happy for everyone who doesn't have to go through life worrying about whether they or someone in their family will meet the wrong badge on the wrong day. That's good for you and so I'm happy for you. But the same people who are supposed to protect me... might be the only ones in this whole world who want to kill me.

By using a star wars reference I hope no one thinks it is any less serious but think about how many storm troopers died on the death star. They were obviously the military arm of the state. They had the authority given to them to do everything that they did. But because of corruption they were used in ways that a "few bad apples" made the whole orchard look bad and so how many people felt good when the death star exploded? That's when the heroes had won; not because they were trying to kill as many soldiers as possible but because the death star was a literally a planet killing threat to the galaxy. But... hold on. Who was the death star being used against? Those who went along with the emperor? Or those who resisted? Those who rebelled?

I submit that at any moment, any of those storm troopers could have protested and perhaps detonated the death star themselves. Why didn't they? What was it that caused them to go along with the program and what happened in the mind of Finn, that he could not? Conscience? Is that all it takes? An awakening of conscience? In many cases the minority is oppressed while the majority goes along with it because its not affecting them. They don't feel it. We need to break free of that mindset. Ever stopped to consider that if it's happening to a black person it's happening to you because you're also a person? If it's happening to a black person have you ever stopped to consider that its happening to you because you're also (for those who are) a US citizen? So what is it, let's really pause and think, what is it that would make you feel like what happens to black people ISN'T happening to you? What would make you feel that you're NOT included? Because you're not black?

But isn't that... racist?

selah.

I'm watching this discussion carefully.

I don't think it's racist, just unnecessarily discriminatory (not in the social 'rights' sense, but in the technical 'difference' sense). If you want all folk to recognize the universality of the crime, then focusing on the target groups unique attributes does not help with that universality. Which is why the 'human life matters' concept tried to point out that it was Police brutality as the inappropriate action, which meant the reason for that action could stand clear for what it was; racism. For blurred meaning/lines don't help, but.... at the end of the day it's just a different way of saying the same thing, which some people think might have worked better, and some disagree.

Because lets face it, its not really white people getting the most racism from Police, so clearly distinguishing racist Officers would in theory address the problem.... while also allowing those who have trouble letting go of it (due to upbringing or whatever) to focus on appropriate action despite their racism. Because if there is no Police brutality or discriminatory behaviour, then the problem is resolved regardless of what beliefs the Officer might have. Obviously an ideal world wouldn't have any racism.... but people aren't usually professional enough to process proper checks and hold their coworkers to account. If only the leaders actually led, rather then trying to sound like it.

Adder wrote: I don't think it's racist, just unnecessarily discriminatory (not in the social 'rights' sense, but in the technical 'difference' sense). If you want all folk to recognize the universality of the crime, then focusing on the target groups unique attributes does not help with that universality. Which is why the 'human life matters' concept tried to point out that it was Police brutality as the inappropriate action, which meant the reason for that action could stand clear for what it was; racism. For blurred meaning/lines don't help, but.... at the end of the day it's just a different way of saying the same thing, which some people think might have worked better, and some disagree.

Because lets face it, its not really white people getting the most racism from Police, so clearly distinguishing racist Officers would in theory address the problem.... while also allowing those who have trouble letting go of it (due to upbringing or whatever) to focus on appropriate action despite their racism. Because if there is no Police brutality or discriminatory behaviour, then the problem is resolved regardless of what beliefs the Officer might have. Obviously an ideal world wouldn't have any racism.... but people aren't usually professional enough to process proper checks and hold their coworkers to account. If only the leaders actually led, rather then trying to sound like it.

Brother Adder,

If we only say "the victim was a human", and remove the context of race, what you are asking us to do is ignore racism and pretend it doesn't exist.

Oh what a world it would be (although humans would find other things to separate themselves to feel superior-like wealth/class) if the PERPETRATORS of racism could do that!

But if the perpetrators of racism SEE that person as black, and someone out there sees that black man die from a knee to his neck, and says "that's awesome, one less piece of s---" then that's RACIST. And you cannot address racism while pretending there is no racism. You cannot get rid of racism with the only ones who care about race are the victims and perpetrators.

Guess what? And I say this with all due respect and with love. Some people are sexist. Some people have been culturally programmed to think men are superior and therefore treat women as inferiors. You cannot take that battered wife's gender out of the equation. If you say, "oh he's just a jerk", you are missing the fact that he's only a "jerk" to women. And guess what, my brother. What happens when no other man can say he's a jerk because they never experienced that so-called jerk being a jerk to them? Does it mean he's not a jerk? How is he held accountable then? How can he be held accountable if every male is able to defend him and say he's not a jerk because he never treated them the same way?

Do you understand?

Instead of trying to take race out of it, you need to pretend you are that race... put yourself in the shoes of a black man. Live in those shoes. Ask why you're being treated differently than your white counterpart? Ask why, you're being stopped and your white counterpart isn't. Ask why, even though you make a good living and are far from poverty, you are suspected of being a criminal? Ask why, when YOU go to a park and see a white woman with her dog off the leash and you are a known bird watcher in Central Park, ask why you cannot ask her to put her dog on the leash without her threatening to call the police and TELLING YOU that she will lie to them and say you were trying to assault her or possibly kill her, because she knows by doing that YOU might get shot.

Imagine you're a university professor arrested entering your own home because someone called the police on you. There are things that happen because of the color of the person's skin that WOULD NOT HAPPEN if their skin was the "right" color.

There is story after story for you to read and ask, what if YOU were black. I know a few white mothers who have black children and they are outraged too because that could have been their child who was murdered in broad daylight by police over a single fake $20 bill that he may not have known was fake.

Empathy is not, "let me make you into me, or take away what makes you different." Empathy is feeling what that person feels, to the extent that you can, as if what was happening to them, is happening to you. And what I asked in the last post, which wasn't directed at anyone so it wasn't personal, is why does that seem so hard for people? Yes, George Floyd was black. But he was also a man, also a human, also a US citizen. Every person on earth is at least one of these things. So why does it seem so difficult?

Everyone should understand that in no way am I trying to cast blame on anyone who is not directly involved in one of these MANY stories of racism. Some people feel blamed. But if you weren't a slave owner, slave trader, black face wearing minstrel, etc. If you treat people equally and don't think your race is superior, then there is no blame that I am sending your way. We are all responsible to FIX things for the future; to make a more perfect union, to love each other, to help each other, to support each other. The more we ignore each other's struggles the further we get from the lofty goals that we set for our society. I wasn't there in the past so I couldn't have done anything in the past to make the future better. But I am here now and I can have conversations and I can write my congressman and I can raise awareness in the hopes of adding to political pressure. I can try to make people think about these issues and the importance of them so that when a friend says something racist they'll know how to respond. I can only dream.

But if you try to reduce racists to simply "not nice people" then you can easily acquit them of almost any charge resulting from their actual racist tendencies because plenty of people (who all happen to be white...) as in "a jury of his peers" could easily say he or she has never been that way towards them. And this is often how cops are acquitted because their friends back them up. And if their white friends don't take racism seriously then it makes it easier for them to make excuses for the racist and make it easier for the racist to operate. And without consequences there is no correction for his racism.

So unless your desire (and I say this purely in a hypothetical sense) is to protect racists and racism, I don't know how what you propose makes any sense. At least not to me.

'human life matters'

When I see this... I'm sorry. But this is the most DUH statement ever. The only people who need to hear that human life matters happen to be people who see black people as "SUB human". The black man was once thought to be 3/5 human. So you need specificity. But we're not interested in convincing racists that they're wrong. They simply need to have real consequences for executing their beliefs on people. And they're not executing their racists beliefs on whites. So no one needs to tell them white lives matter. They already think their lives matter and think their lives matter more than black lives. And to another degree many cops protect themselves over ALL else. But you can't expect to give every officer basic morality after they get on the job. If someone takes a test with 99 questions and they get 10 wrong, while you can say "oh you got some answers wrong" it would be much more effective if you specifically showed them which questions they got wrong so they could learn how to get it right. Or at least understand why they failed. But instead we're treating cops like racism is just one thing that got wrong but they're still passing.

That's not good enough.