The Problem with Black Lives Matter

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04 Dec 2017 20:31 #307544 by OB1Shinobi
The people in this conversation might be interested in this video.


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05 Dec 2017 02:07 #307563 by Carlos.Martinez3
Classic example of labels getting in the way. Not a fan of the launguage and the way it's presented. That's just me.
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05 Dec 2017 02:19 #307564 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic The Problem with Black Lives Matter
A very good video. Yeah, harsh language, but its to get a dialogue going, so I think it appropriate. Most hate in the world comes from ignorance. They don't know the other half of the story.

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05 Dec 2017 04:09 #307566 by TheDude
I am not a racist. I disavow myself of any apparent privilege I may have based on race, and I reject the idea that any just system can have racial preferences. I would prefer to be called by my name rather than my skin color; my skin color has nothing to do with me. There is no aspect of European descent which appeals especially to me, and there is no pride that I take in any of my ancestral culture or heritage. If I am subject to privilege, though I have yet to see even a single instance in my personal life where I have been benefited by being white, I consider that unjust and would reject it if ever I came in contact with it, even at my own disadvantage.
With that being said, I put no faith nor trust in any group which specifically represents the interests of one group of people. Human beings are equal. That means black, white, brown, any skin color -- all human beings are equal. Putting special interest in one group, even when it is disproportionately represented in the justice system, is unjust.
The injustice is had when there is disproportionate application of force in the justice system. That is what I stand against. Namely, I stand against any use of unjustified force in any situation -- but especially in the cases of police officers, military members, politicians, and so on who are supposed to act as role models for the rest of society. These are really the most despicable people, because they were in a position of societal trust and decided to betray it in a horrible way.
I cannot support any group which puts the needs of one group over the many, especially when the needs of all could be met with simple regulations within the workplace. Simply put, ending police brutality ends police brutality against minorities. That is the goal. Why purposely divide a movement working against police brutality by applying a racial lens? That lends only to ineffectiveness, as we have seen from the BLM movement.
I have no doubt that many BLM supporters have been justly motivated to work for a good social cause. It is naive, though, to think that the causes outlined in the BLM protests will solve the underlying issues plaguing our society. There is a better way.

In addition, I have personally seen a rise in black nationalism since the BLM movement came about. Plenty of people out there today are preaching about how the white man is the most evil thing to face the earth. That is nothing but racism in my eyes.

Yes, it is possible to be racist against people with white skin.
No, people who have white skin are not automatically racist.
No, this does not invalidate the real issue which is police brutality.
If you believe that those three previous statements are false, I would be glad to address any of your specific points and show you how you are wrong. Because you are wrong. You support viewing morality through a racial lens, which is NEVER under ANY circumstances acceptable.

tl;dr: abuse of authoritarian systems to justify violence is the problem. Race has NOTHING to do with it, and if there are racial separations in police brutality it is solved most easily by solving the issue of police brutality -- not "solving police brutality for African-Americans". Even the notion that such a thing would specifically be targeted at benefiting one group over another sickens me to my core.

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05 Dec 2017 14:43 #307591 by Manu
The reason "we" wetbacks don't have a beef with BLM is because we are not their target. White people ARE.

It is unfortunate, black people have had to suffer through so much injustice throughout the history of America, the wounds are still fresh and they want to be heard.

YES, some people are anti-BLM only because they are inconvenienced by people protesting.

But when a group of any sort paints a target on you (white folk), it is only a matter of time before a counter-movement is generated. White people protesting BLM is a result of targeted racism towards white people. Granted, it has not been enough to reverse systemic racism in America, but it is enough to make the "common white folk" wary and even resentful of other people denouncing their "oppression" when they perhaps grew up poor, jobless and powerless themselves.

The problem with police shooting unarmed black civilians is a BIG problem, and it needs to be addressed by an overhaul of rules of engagement that law enforcement uses. The goal, of course, is not to stop black kids from being shot, but ANY kid from being shot by a cop.

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11 Dec 2017 13:53 #308070 by ZealotX
The video is good. I almost couldn't make it through because I didn't know if the conversation was going to be one-sided or not. I couldn't listen to the MAGA guy criticize the "black man" for 6min +. I thought the black guy's response was weak but that's truthfully both perspectives were from the lesser educated class of both races which is where a lot of the friction and problems come from. A lot of the points they're talking about really go way too deep for their level of discourse but this is true too of the larger argument. The people arguing often do not know the deeper story or the last impacts of slavery and white supremacy. The white people who can "get it" are often whites who are educated and more intellectual. These whites aren't the type to isolate themselves from other cultures. If they like Jazz music they'll listen. If they like fried chicken they'll eat it. They aren't defined or limited by race. They are not racists. And yes, I think of pretty much everyone here as falling under that umbrella to different degrees.

Also, before I lose people in the minutia of my response to the video can I please once again point out that MAGA is coming from wealthy whites who want to shift their tax burdens onto the backs of the poor and middle class? Can we all agree that it benefits the wealthy to have a culture war where whites and blacks cast blame at each other? Can we all just take a moment to see that the wealthy elite class has always had a reason to, not necessarily be racist themselves, but to promote racism and racial divisions because it helps to cast the fog of war that disguises CLASS WARFARE. And it is this campaign... to "make America great again" that is being used to justify and support the wealthy elite being given more of America's wealth than ever before as if the rest of us were never part of their success and as if we should be lucky if any of their wealth trickles down to us.
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11 Dec 2017 17:10 #308088 by ZealotX
The Video:

I love how "I'm not racist" gets repeated. This was a good artistic choice because the whole argument and how it is received changes based on this question. What aggravated me a lot during the beginning of the video was how this "White guy" is talking to this black guy like he knows him and, by extension, me. While claiming not to be racist he picked several variables that HE THINKS are common to the black race. This ignores the scores of whites who use and sell drugs, who ignore or abandon their children, who cheat on their wives, who divide or disrupt their families, etc. There are a ton of them but they're simply not the SUBJECT of anyone's attention. Think about it. Black people should not have to defend the actions of poor black people or uneducated black people or black people who have mental health issues or black people who have addictions. Black people have certainly not stated that whites are a problem to society based on all the white drug dealers, white gun dealers, white mafia, white sex slavery, white prostitution, whites on welfare, etc. etc. We don't tie these things to a person's race or ethnicity. We tie them to their humanity. When we start saying "oh he cheated on the test because he's black" or "oh he stole millions from a charity because he's white" or "oh he has 3 mistresses because he's latin" this is based on ignorance. Black people don't do those things. White people don't do those things. PEOPLE do those things. And people just so happen to come in different shades and colors.

What they're trying to do is attack the color of the person by tying it to these things that they don't like in order to justify the fact that they just don't like the color or perhaps more broadly, people who LOOK different from them. Because they LOOK different it becomes easier to assume that they act different. But what you know is only the surface of how you view "those people". If you have a problem with black people you are less likely to have real black friends. I'm not talking about acquaintances or people you have met. Segregation was purposefully done in order to keep blacks and whites separate and this helped us to be able to ignore each other's problems, struggles, etc. Whenever black people crossed that like we were either smacked down, arrested, lynched, hung, etc. And if we fought back we were demonized, slandered, chased out, etc. My best friend's father was driven out of the south by whites who threatened to kill him over an altercation he had where he mistakenly used the wrong bathroom. The guy he fought in the bathroom didn't have to push him or disrespect him. It wasn't his job to enforce any rules or jim crow laws. He did it because, like a LOT of whites, he simply hated black people.

When we say "White Supremacy" a lot of white people get offended because they don't feel personally responsible. They were just born white just like I was born black. And so... I think... they start feeling upset by implication that they are somehow a part of this group of whites who they ethically and morally disagree with to their very core. And at some point they start pushing back against those feelings and those ideas out of a defensive position of not being able to accept that identity as part of who they are. And in that effort they look for blame and they start saying things like "blacks do this" and "blacks do that" and what about this or what about that? Deflections mostly. While I can understand these deflections while you're deflecting your not accepting any responsibility for the current state of the world in which you live. You didn't live back during slavery. You didn't whip anyone. You didn't call the police on runaway slaves. You didn't fight for state's rights to buy and sell slaves. You didn't separate millions of people from their families. You can't be guilty. But in that state of defending your own innocence many fail to see the feelings behind those accusations of racism and the CURRENT state of white supremacy and all the whites who are being defended and protected by this backlash... this counter protest.

When Donald Trump announced that he was recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel do you think he was fully aware of what he was doing? Or do you think he just didn't care about the results or consequences as long as someone told him that's what "We" should do? What does the rest of the world see? Does it see the US throwing its weight around in spite of the lives of actual people? When Trump rejected climate change was that a recognition of the lives of his great grandchildren and what kind of world they would inherit? I bring these things up because people don't seem to realize their own power or how it's felt until it's too late. People have a tendency to be selfish and to think about how their life affects their life. The problem is that in a world ruled by majority rule the minorities have to be protected too-precisely because they don't have the power to look out for themselves. They can't make rules to stop themselves from being exploited just like slaves could not make laws to end lynchings or give them the freedom to drink from any public water fountain. Some of the most basic freedoms and human dignity that whites have had in this country since the beginning were systematically denied to others. So when those minorities struggle, part of that struggle is because they were denied. Part of that struggle is a result of being disadvantaged and judged by stereotypes. When those minorities hate you. It's because of what you, via your majority rule, allowed to happen to them and still allow to happen to them. But at the same time what they don't understand is that, as much as whites want to unify black people through a bunch of negative stereotypes, whites are not unified through a bunch of positive stereotypes.

A lot of people don't spend time thinking about the negative consequences of their actions. However, people who live the results of those decisions have more than enough time to reflect on their condition and all of the causal agents. Those affected by climate change don't have to guess at whether or not it exists. Those affected by racism too... are not imagining it. It's not a question whether or not white supremacy exists. Just because there are no meetings and you're not in on a conspiracy doesn't mean that white people in roles of power never abuse their power according to their own bias and prejudice. Look at the #MeToo movement. This is about powerful people abusing their position and exposing their sexual deviancy in the process. Do you really think whites would simply never exploit their position over blacks in the job market when most corporations and businesses are white owned? And when it comes to the "War on Drugs" is it unreasonable that police officers who are in positions of power would exploit that power based on their own beliefs? Racists want to believe that its "people of color" behind all the drugs. Why? Because whites not only control the law and what's legal but they also have big pharmaceutical corporations that lobby politicians. These drugs are worst than street drugs in my opinion because they're addictive and expensive. But since they're legal no one thinks of the sellers of these drugs as bad people. The responsibility is pushed to the buyer. Buyer Beware.

Making America Great Again is about blaming all the problems of America on people who do not share the old white culture's norms and "values". I have to put that in quotes because many people who boast about these values hide their sins. They feel superior and justifiably so attacking homosexuality while they do their own sins in secret. Yes, the bible calls homosexuality an abomination in the same breath as bestiality. However, it also says that "lying lips are an abomination to YHWH". So if you're saying you don't even know the women you molested that's also behavior that is hateful by your God and should not be tolerated by their religion. White supremacy is not a conspiracy. It's a shared point of view; a culturally influenced perspective that gives preference and privilege to other whites over blacks and latinos. Not every white person is infected with this perspective but it's enough that it could elect a president which is more than enough to make millions of black lives that much more difficult. Black Lives Matter. It doesn't mean white lives don't. White lives are never in question. The police officer already knows his own life matters. He doesn't need to be told or reminded. He's going to shoot you if he thinks his life is in danger. So this statement gets twisted by people who don't want to understand and who don't want to look at other whites who may be doing wrong simply because they're white too and don't want to be guilty by association. It wasn't so long ago that black people were slaves merely by the same association so one shouldn't expect black people to be the most sensitive to the plight of white people not to be associated with racism. It is only when whites claim responsibility for racism and see, as a majority, that this is bad and that the lives of all people (including black people) are equal, only then will whites, as a race, be free of racism and white supremacy.

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11 Dec 2017 21:25 - 11 Dec 2017 21:30 #308101 by Adder
There is plenty of types of discrimination, they are not limited to 'race', but the most relevant thing is most of them seem to be as entirely devastating as other each can be, to the individual. I think this is the base reason why people take an equality approach to dealing with discrimination, because it does not pretend that any one type of discrimination is more hurtful or important then the others and does not pretend to know the suffering of others.
It might not be ideal for any one discriminated group for an approach not to focus on them alone, but it is fairer to all victims of discrimination - which is why it tends to be the organizational and policy approach.
And so its exactly that I think what is mostly being complained about with BLM and/or supporters - if/when they venture into asserting discrimination themselves in prioritizing their focus of being discriminated against. At least that is the main weakness I've seen from a distant casual observer - from the point of view that it would interfere with the positive intentions they seem to have ie its not a problem for me, but it is probably a problem for them and because they don't seem to realize it that it then makes it a problem for others, usually. Obviously there are lots of issues and serious problems with other groups in the way they deal with their perception of problems as well..

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Last edit: 11 Dec 2017 21:30 by Adder.

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12 Dec 2017 13:49 #308143 by ZealotX
If that's why people are criticizing BLM then I think that's dangerous. I think it's easy to make this false equivalencies where people like Trump might say there are fine people on both sides. Each side believes in their side. Each party believes in their party. And in many cases people are incited politically by engineered misunderstandings. And by that I mean, bad actors instigating hostility.

Let's say you were a doctor and I came to you complaining about my stomach. "Doc, my stomach is in a lot of pain. What can we do?" If you say, "why are you complaining about your stomach? My stomach hurts too. If you're not going to complain about my health then why should I care about yours?"

Does that make any sense to you? Should that person even be a doctor? I think we can all agree that doctors get paid to take care of the health problems of their patients. When BLM protests they're not protesting white people. They're not protesting against white people. They're protesting against police departments often getting away with murdering black people. And innocent or not, in the justice system a person is innocent until proven guilty and have constitutional rights. When a cop plays judge jury and executioner he's not being a cop and not serving the people. He is rather a rogue agent who is using his badge to do evil against the people and should be stopped. Because he's doing it in the name of the people then the people are responsible for holding him accountable.

So if black people have a problem and they're protesting something specific, what sense does it make to protest their protest because some instigator is saying that they're not being inclusive enough? I apologize for being crass but that's bullshit. It's not even political correctness gone wrong, because the people opposing it are generally right wing republicans. FOX news perpetually opposes BLM while the left doesn't. Is it because FOX news is seeing something left wing outlets are not? Or is it because they're putting a political spin on it in order to instigate and deny the allegations made by the protest. In other words, if your stomach hurts, we don't care. We're the ones punching you in the gut. This is essentially what society is telling black people.

And not only that. Let's go ahead and double down by finding fault and putting more political spin on a different protest. This time, they're black but they're not BLM. Black NFL players silently protest by kneeling. The first one started by sitting but a white teammate who was former military advised him to kneel instead to honor the troops. He didn't keep sitting after that. He knelt... to honor the troops. He did this because his protest wasn't about the troops or all the good people who work in the military or in law enforcement. He was protesting excessive force and police brutality. But again.... here comes FOX news and the right wing to politically spin his actions as saying something he never said in order to mislead their own people and their own party, hyping them up against these black players and touching upon the hidden racist sentiments they already had. Why do I say this? Because suddenly these Americans start talking about how much money these "black" athletes were making as if they shouldn't complain because of that. Do you know that's like telling the house negro that he shouldn't complain because he should feel lucky and privileged not to be working in the field?? No matter how much better you treat that slave he's still a slave and he still has family and friends that work in the field. They are still HIS PEOPLE. When Moses (fictional character/story or not) returned to Egypt to tell Pharaoh to "Let my people go!" he wasn't a slave and didn't share their experience. He was a "Prince of Egypt". He was raised in the palace, educated in the palace. But he killed (murdered) an overseer because he saw it as wrong and wrong being done to his people. This Christians on the right... they know this story. But for some reason they cannot apply it to black people even though I could argue that everyone in the story, including Moses, was black. And this is my biggest pet peeve against the bible. If something bad was done to them ("God's people") then it was wrong and ugly and sinful. But if they did it to others it was okay and the will of God. People attacking BLM act the same way. "How dare you uppity negros complain with all the money we're giving you?" Really? I didn't know the NFL was a charity. Instead, the games they play are internationally consumed products that are priced according to supply and demand and they're paid accordingly. And if it wasn't for them playing these games all the other people, including team owners, doctors, physical therapists, down to the janitors that clean the stadiums would be SOL. Anything less would be wrong. People want to be free and not see their people suffering. They do NOT need to be inclusive of the people causing them to suffer. During the holocaust I don't think the Jews were that worried about blond Germans on their way to gas chambers. Those who have the power don't need to be included in the protest because they're the ones with the power to fix it without protest. Protest only gets awareness from the majority. If the majority understand that the problem affects them then FIX THE DAMN PROBLEM. But no... they only wanted to be included as a means of counter-protest to justify NOT fixing the problem. This is why there is no organization called White Lives Matter Too or All Lives Matter. These organizations do not exist because they were never serious arguments. They were only counter arguments to protect the corrupt system that allows cops to do the very thing BLM and NFL players are protesting.

And as far as equating suffering? Slaves were whipped until their flesh came off, raped, murdered, sold and separated from family, auctioned naked, killed in mass, denied education, locked up in mass, had towns destroyed by white rioters, etc. etc. with effects and consequences still in effect. Slavery in America lasted over 200 years. That's how long black people were terrorized by white people. Black people haven't even been free for that long. And on top of that, unlike white settlers who got land for free, we have never received reparations (like the natives in America or Canada) even though we were supposed to get "40 acres and a mule". So there is nothing equal about anything and nothing in our history that is equivalent to that in our view. And when people act like it's not a big deal it rubs salt in those wounds and, to us, smacks as a barely human response. And this is the reason why there are black groups who question the morality and even humanity of whites. How can one group of people do so many horrible things to another group and not even care? And then individuals hide behind the majority to escape responsibility for the things this democracy does. Meanwhile, they can't or don't want to answer the question of why the majority makes these decisions. They simply don't want to be responsible.

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12 Dec 2017 22:19 - 13 Dec 2017 00:02 #308202 by Adder

ZealotX wrote: If that's why people are criticizing BLM then I think that's dangerous. I think it's easy to make this false equivalencies where people like Trump might say there are fine people on both sides. Each side believes in their side. Each party believes in their party. And in many cases people are incited politically by engineered misunderstandings. And by that I mean, bad actors instigating hostility.


If your answering my post, do you mean the other side is equality!? For if someone is going to assert systematic or organizational discrimination then it needs to exist in a more tangible way then being even endemic in it's occurrence. In military targeting decision are understood as being necessary, action as proportionate and effects discriminate and what I am talking about here is being discriminate in blame (the opposite being popularly understood as discrimination). What seems to be happening is BLM supporters are arguing some necessity fairly, but as a movement seem to be losing all that ground (valid position) by the existence of questionable proportionality in fixing the problem, and questionable discrimination of who is to blame for the problem, from some parts if not officially.

ZealotX wrote: Let's say you were a doctor and I came to you complaining about my stomach. "Doc, my stomach is in a lot of pain. What can we do?" If you say, "why are you complaining about your stomach? My stomach hurts too. If you're not going to complain about my health then why should I care about yours?"

Does that make any sense to you? Should that person even be a doctor? I think we can all agree that doctors get paid to take care of the health problems of their patients. When BLM protests they're not protesting white people. They're not protesting against white people. They're protesting against police departments often getting away with murdering black people. And innocent or not, in the justice system a person is innocent until proven guilty and have constitutional rights. When a cop plays judge jury and executioner he's not being a cop and not serving the people. He is rather a rogue agent who is using his badge to do evil against the people and should be stopped. Because he's doing it in the name of the people then the people are responsible for holding him accountable.


I'm not talking about what is right with BLM, I am talking about what is wrong, IMO. I don't think anyone here is saying anyone cannot protest or complain, but rather the problems might be in the how. That advice might be helpful, hopefully...
But yea, of course the Doctor analogy makes no sense to me either, but because it seems unrelated to my point ~ I think it would be more like a patient blaming the doctor for the stomach pain because the doctor agrees its there but cannot do anything about it. But again, I was only referencing that which I saw at fault with BLM, not that which I support of BLM.

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Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 13 Dec 2017 00:02 by Adder.

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