Jedi Philosophy

Why is it that if the Jedi believe in justice but they also say that killers and rapists shouldn’t be killed? You guys really need to reassess your philosophy before I consider joining the order. May the force be with you all and God bless America and the Jedi Order.

I'm sure you've had all the time in the world to judge our philosophy based on all of the conversations you've had with us during the past hour or so since your registration, and came to the conclusion that "us guys" need to reconsider things.

That being said, I have some questions, too:
First of all, where did you read that Jedi believe in justice? The doctrine mentions it once, namely as one of the 21 Maxims. The flavour text to that maxim makes no statement about the death penalty one way or the other. The one line in the entire doctrine that says anything about the death penalty is the second of the "Jedi Believe" section, a section that says nothing about justice.
Secondly, what about the death penalty is so obviously just that anyone who believes in justice must automatically be in favour of it also? Who exactly declared that this punishment was appropriate for killing or rape, what was their reasoning, and how is their opinion obligatory to share in everyone else's conception of justice?
Thirdly, even if one were to grant that there is an inconsistency here - something you have yet to demonstrate - where exactly do you gather that a moral framework must be entirely self-consistent? Most people have a general sense of fairness, and many also generally value life or bodily autonomy (two ideals that are themselves in conflict often enough). Obviously in some cases these two can conflict, like when we consider how to treat those among us who do not respect such things. What is not obvious is that this conflict must be resolved in exactly one way and not the other, even in any one individual case. Why, assuming that killing a murderer is the just thing to do, does that justness matter more in that moment than the murderer's life? For that matter, why would their life be more valuable than justice?

I think it is a bit rash to dismiss an entire discussion and to pretend like the answer is clear and yours is clearly the right answer. People much smarter than either of us have been debating questions like this for millennia by now. To expect a simple answer to such a complicated question I think is at best unwarranted, and at worst - exploitable. Neither the Jedi of this Temple, nor more broadly, are perfect, either individually or collectively, not by any means. If what you seek is the "correct" philosophy, you won't be finding it here. If you are looking for a place that broadly agrees with yours, then, too, this is probably not it. The most I can say to encourage you is that we tend here to not take ourselves so much seriously as to dismiss the other. I find that one should never be quite that sure of oneself, that one wouldn't listen in the hopes of learning more. Nobody will expel you for believing in the death penalty, and maybe through a well-constructed argument some will even come to agree with you, or appreciate your position for the thought that went into forming it, if any did. Likewise, you too may learn why some people think the way you do, or a different way, by making an effort to find out.
Welcome to TOTJO.

I believe that rapists and murderers should be killed. Sex offenders especially ruin the lives of their victims. Murderers end lives. I know the statement you found regarding the death penalty, that the organization doesn’t believe in the death penalty but members are not expected to believe in everything the organization does. However, if this is not correct please let me know and I’ll leave.

I think anytime we consider killing someone "a hard and fast rule" is foolish. Here is an example why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney. I personally lose respect for the character of people who think the right time to end another life is so easy to decide.

rugadd wrote: I think anytime we consider killing someone "a hard and fast rule" is foolish. Here is an example why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney. I personally lose respect for the character of people who think the right time to end another life is so easy to decide.

At the risk of lost respect, I only agree with your option partly.

I agree, that a "hard and fast" decision to execute offenders in the legal system denies both the offender and victim true; lasting justice. I feel that our current legal system is far too emotionally invested in the cases presented to it, and as such that emotional influence does a disservice to all parties involved.

However, where it concerns matters of combat/battle I have to disagree. A split second of hesitation on regards of moral dilemma can result in serious injury or death. In cases such as the above, "shoot first & ask questions later" is a preferred ideology simply out of an imperative to continue living.

I don't differentiate between my own need to continue living and others, so perhaps I am the wrong one too make that point too. Then again, I have zero life threatening combat experiences to reference. I like to think there is always an option, but I am also not foolish enough to think people won't kill each other. We do it all the time, for some pretty dumb reasons. But that is not really what we are discussing. I thought we were talking about the death penalty, not killing each other in general.

EDIT: I thought I might add that I recently retired from tournament fighting and have had my fair share of street level scraps. I understand from personal experience the feelings that are involved in combat. I never once felt i needed to kill the other person, even when i was jumped in an alley. It didn't come to it, but the worse thing i was going to do was kick his knee in so i could get away.

TrentonR wrote: Why is it that if the Jedi believe in justice but they also say that killers and rapists shouldn’t be killed? You guys really need to reassess your philosophy before I consider joining the order. May the force be with you all and God bless America and the Jedi Order.

Welcome to the Temple.
Thank you for the question as well.
In this world you will always be rules, lines, sides and ideas that conflict or even better , work. Some parallel some don’t. With codes and Koans and Maxims out there all from different places and people and cultures and ways- it’s up to US - the WE- to each person - the how - to do it. How we see the day - that’s up and given to each of us. Each Modern day Jeddist can pick and choose the “HOW” of our own choices - RARELY some one else’s.
One of the best but most difficult things for me to understand was- how can I make my choices and ideas when it seems like some days in my circle- I’m the only one and actually - do and live with them. I’m a very” home-ey “ type of person by choice. Can I function when no one else can or everybody else can - can I still learn when I find others don’t or do better than me? Do the things I notice now- keep or hold me?
Big questions
Real questions for real people
Welcome to the Temple again. You ARE a breath of fresh air.
May the Force continue to be with you.

I have no problem with it. There are traumas that people do to others such as rape, throwing acid on peoples faces, etc that should not be excused. And what about the victims justice? The victim must live in hell or end it themselves while their attacker lives a happy life...just goes on their merry way. I don’t think so. People are to concerned over the rights of the perpetrator and not the victim.

So George Stinny's story didn't bother you at all?

*scratching head*

"God Bless America"

That's a common CHRISTIAN phrase. I'm sorry if I find some sort of irony of someone who appears to be Christian saying the day before Good Friday- and just before the weekend of Christ's Resurrection celebration, that he believes rapists and killers should be killed.

Yes, yes, I am fully aware that Christ did not come to change the law (Matthew 5:17). However, there are many other factors to be considered. There were allowances afforded to even murderers- if they could get to a sanctuary city, for example. Or if they repented. Even in the story of Christ saving a young adulterous woman from being stoned, we see that it is not our place to condemn- but instead, Christ directed to forgive when someone asks for forgiveness. And if one does not, God shall not forgive them their own trespasses (Matthew 6:15).

While Capital Punishment may seem like it is the solid punishment, it isn't actually informed by Christian values- for if it were anyone who repented of their sins before they reached their final day, they would be spared the death penalty and even released from prison. Instead, it is based on a blind justice system that is, by its very nature, untrusting of the sincerity of a criminal.

Where, in its theory, I have no problems with Capital Punishment because not all value systems are created equal within a melting pot and it would satisfy most problems; the truth is that it is not executed in practice the way it should be done in theory. But as a Christian, I find that Capital Punishment lacks the same value system God imposes within the OT and Christ teaches into the NT.

So I hope that you'll excuse my laughter, TrentonR, that you would come in with a Christian phrase and in the same post say that you cannot support a group that would allow Rapists and Murders to live- just mere hours from the time that we are called to remember Christ's sacrifice upon the Cross, and mere days before his Resurrection which served as proof that he was indeed the Messiah.