Following the Myth

Kohadre wrote:

ZealotX wrote: We know Jedi history isn't real. Obviously. But who said it had to be? Who makes those rules about religion and why would/should we follow them? What child doesn't know the story of the three little pigs? Or could fill in the blanks if you mentioned porridge that was "juuuuust right"? What child doesn't know how to do the hokey pokey? Do you know how old that is? And we keep repeating the story of Santa Claus and have a whole holiday where he try not to go broke buying gifts. Not to mention the tooth fairy.

We do all these things get to be fake as fake can be and yet we seem to be scared to actually use star wars mythology for, from my perspective, the exact same purposes?

From my experience, this has to do more with societal expectations/norms; and localized culture than much of anything else. A Christian celebrating Christmas, probably isn't going to be received that well in an Islamic community where the recognized celebrations center around "Eid al-Fitr" for example.

In certain communities, celebrating any religious holiday that falls outside of the cultural norms can even be taken as an insult; regardless if that was the intention. Even living in the U.S where such differences are meant to be celebrated, I've seen people become violently angry when those celebrating "alternative" religious holidays come into the mix.

An example I can give of this, is certain groups of Christians fighting against the "happy holidays" greeting. People within these groups sincerely believe that the holiday season is meant for Christmas, and Christmas only.

So I believe our fear comes more from our intuitive understanding that society in general tends to be intolerant, or otherwise less than understanding of views and celebrations that go against their own established traditions.

I hear you but Christmas is actually a pagan holy day (sun worship) that was adopted by Christianity. When I was religious I would bring this up a lot because I couldn't understand why Christians would defend it when the bible was clearly against any kind of idolatry or mixing of gentile/pagan practices.

I believe the person responsible for this, in large part, was Constantine. Why? Because he "converted" to Christianity after having been a sun worshiper. However, since it appears that this was in his political best interest, he had a motive to blend paganism (to some degree) into Christianity. This happened so long ago few people even still question it. And this wasn't the only time.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101983605

The "saints", and other christian concepts were used to hide pagan beliefs: The Trinity, "Mother of God", Easter Eggs, etc. Many Christians don't even know where paganism ends and their religion begins. So, I hear you and I'm not saying you're wrong. However, what I am saying is that there isn't an infinite wall of separation between cultures and religions. Religions will adopt whatever they want just like the bible adopted the Epic of Gilgamesh and simply changed it to fit their narrative. This kind of mixing and borrowing has been happening since the very beginning. The more people like something the more willing they will be to adopt it. Who doesn't like star wars? (well... who among us doesn't like star wars?)

We’re based off the philosophy of the Jedi of the movies in the sense we’re Jedi however I feel it’s based on the person the Jedi no a group or a set core philosophy or religious views . There are a mutal agreement on certain things but, you walk your own path and your might be different than mine and vice versa.

Learn to walk your own path.

Euhemerization is the word you're looking for. Christians co-opted many pagan traditions and used them as teaching points for their theology to the point that some of the practices are essentially a part of the Christian tradition. Everything is written in a context and is either based off of or reacting to something else in a certain sense. The Genesis creation myth in Abrahamic religions is almost certainly a polemic meant to contrast the Enuma Elish.

This thread is about litigating why we (at TotJO) don't celebrate life day while wearing brown robes and waving around lightsabers. At this point, I think that all of us TotJO members generally appreciate the value of many other religion's traditions while recognizing the ability of them to be problematic. I also think that the FAQ I copied into the last of these similar threads answers most of the OP

Rex wrote: Euhemerization is the word you're looking for. Christians co-opted many pagan traditions and used them as teaching points for their theology to the point that some of the practices are essentially a part of the Christian tradition. Everything is written in a context and is either based off of or reacting to something else in a certain sense. The Genesis creation myth in Abrahamic religions is almost certainly a polemic meant to contrast the Enuma Elish.

This thread is about litigating why we (at TotJO) don't celebrate life day while wearing brown robes and waving around lightsabers. At this point, I think that all of us TotJO members generally appreciate the value of many other religion's traditions while recognizing the ability of them to be problematic. I also think that the FAQ I copied into the last of these similar threads answers most of the OP

I've never heard that word before so thank you for teaching me something new.

As for wearing robes and celebrating Life day I didn't get that from the OP. It's certainly not what I was thinking in my response. I don't think Jedi should wear robes anymore than Christians should dress like Samson or Elijah. But we know the stories and pass them down as part of a tradition. My real name is theophoric as are many if not most other people. Most biblical writers are said to have written by "inspiration". We too are inspired by star wars. What form that inspiration takes doesn't have to be scripted or enumerated or codified. But if some are inspired by star wars in deeper ways, what's wrong with that? The question of it not being real shouldn't even be part of the conversation just like Noah's ark and whether the flood was global or local isn't what most Christians are thinking about. And that didn't stop Christians from building one in Kentucky.

I think that some of us are scared we wont be taken seriously by other religions if we look too much like a bunch of star wars nerds.

Oh yes! fear and scared are paths to the dark side!

So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth

Know what that means? People dont drink the liquid (join the mythology) because its full of disease (corruption). If you are hot then follow the teachings of the myth as they were meant to be followed! If you are cold then go away and that is fine because you have other things going on. But dont be lukewarm! dont invent your own version and call it this version. That is disease. A friend showed me an amazing site where the teachings are taught in original form as they were meant to be lived. I want to live that way.

As for light sabers, whats wrong with learning a light saber? other religions have the cross or that funny star thing or a pentacle or whatever, so why not a light saber for our myth following? are you ashamed? or lukewamr? I think a temple is in order as well. I found one on amazon for 180 bucks! it can be a traveling tent revival. The jedi recruited. if we weant this to grow lets grow it! we can travel from town to down like jedi did from planet ot planet and find other Jjedi! that is what they did so thats what I do!

Fyxe wrote: Oh yes! fear and scared are paths to the dark side!

So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth

Know what that means? People dont drink the liquid (join the mythology) because its full of disease (corruption). If you are hot then follow the teachings of the myth as they were meant to be followed! If you are cold then go away and that is fine because you have other things going on. But dont be lukewarm! dont invent your own version and call it this version. That is disease. A friend showed me an amazing site where the teachings are taught in original form as they were meant to be lived. I want to live that way.

As for light sabers, whats wrong with learning a light saber? other religions have the cross or that funny star thing or a pentacle or whatever, so why not a light saber for our myth following? are you ashamed? or lukewamr? I think a temple is in order as well. I found one on amazon for 180 bucks! it can be a traveling tent revival. The jedi recruited. if we weant this to grow lets grow it! we can travel from town to down like jedi did from planet ot planet and find other Jjedi! that is what they did so thats what I do!

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It's honestly difficult to tell whether your are being authentic in your posts, or just trolling for a drawn out laugh.

If you want to be a homeless; nomadic, religious vagabond - by all means pursue that interest. Having been a homeless transient myself prior in life however, I can personally assure you that the romanticized vision of "wanderlust" the public has is nothing like what life is like when homeless.

You will be hungry, thirsty, dirty, smelly; and at constant risk of attack from both other homeless individuals, as well as members of the general public. Police will quickly become your personal enemy, as they run you out from town after town.

no body ever said anything about homeless??

none of these poeple were...

https://www.jonasclark.com/americas-greatest-tent-preachers/

and whats more, you are supposed to be like some sort of apprentice or something right? like do you have a trainer? did you go through these lessons of IP? this comes from those very teachings. Why dont you know these things?

Sorry... was that aggressive? dont mean it that way, Im just wondering,

Fyxe wrote: and whats more, you are supposed to be like some sort of apprentice or something right? like do you have a trainer? did you go through these lessons of IP? this comes from those very teachings. Why dont you know these things?

Good questions.

Yes, I am currently within apprenticeship here at TOTJO; specifically under Knight Firewolf.

As a prerequisite to this apprenticeship, yes; I did in fact complete the IP and all it's associated lessons. However, since I joined TOTJO over 6 years ago (time flies) the IP has undergone numerous changes, edits, and adaptations to bring it to it's present format. Because of that, the IP I underwent training in; and the IP that you are undergoing training within are going to have some fundamental differences when compared.

Also, even though I completed the IP in years prior; it does not mean that I agreed with every lesson or element of doctrine it promoted. That's not entirely the point of the IP either, as it's meant more to teach you how to think rather than what to think. Although we have a doctrine here at TOTJO, we do not offer the IP as a means through which to indoctrinate our members.

When I undertook and completed the IP, it was not our intended goal nor purpose to go out into the world and proselytize our beliefs upon the general public in the manner that a Jehovah's witness or other wandering ministry would. The temple at that time had more of a mindset that those meant for a path centered upon Jediism, would naturally find their own way.

There is (or was) not as much of a drive to convert others to our faith either; as we did not offer the salvation that Christianity or other abrahamic faiths would seek to offer. TOTJO has not, and to my knowledge does not promote the worship of a single deity; nor pantheon of deities that would be common to other faiths.

Nor, do we worship the Force; despite having our community centered on the subject.

To assume that I do not "know these things" because I fail to live as a literal, unquestioning embodiment of them is itself a logical fallacy, and again indicates a desire to adhere to what I would describe as "fundamental extremism" Jediism.

-Koh.

The IP team is supposed to understand how people take ideas away from the IP, so could you walk me through your thought process on how Campbell (I'm assuming since that's the lesson in your journal) lead you to believe an Evangelical, aescetic lifestyle is the way to go?

Fyxe wrote: Well the fact that they consider Jesus real is a mistake like I said. They got poetry and real life mixed up.

I'm a little concerned that you're getting poetry and real life mixed up yourself Fyxe.

You yourself talk about the Jedi from the films as if they really do exist:

Fyxe wrote: I dont think Jedi will come back[...]

For me it means the teachings of the Jedi. The real teachings of the Jedi, not the made up ones.

Suggesting that the Jedi may or may not come back implies that you believe they were here to begin with. They weren't. As for the 'real teachings of the Jedi', the Jedi in the films aren't real, ALL of their teaching are 'made up ones' :laugh:

Fyxe wrote: and whats more, you are supposed to be like some sort of apprentice or something right? like do you have a trainer? did you go through these lessons of IP? this comes from those very teachings. Why dont you know these things?

Like Rex, I too am curious as to how you arrived at these beliefs based on the Campbell videos?

If I may, I'd like to advise that you don't let your beliefs of what Jediism 'should be' become too static this early on in your path. It is worth noting that you're only on the first lesson of the IP at the minute. Perhaps you're views will change as you progress through the rest of the IP? Mine certainly did.

Fyxe wrote: no body ever said anything about homeless??

none of these poeple were...

https://www.jonasclark.com/americas-greatest-tent-preachers/

Nope, I get it. I know exactly what you're talking about because I was raised a denomination that used to have what we called "tent meetings" all the time. It's actually pretty simple and it is part of what increased its membership dramatically. You just pitch a tent in a park or whatever, pass out flyers in the area, and people come to hear the message. It's very simple. I don't know if we're organized enough to actually do something like that but I can't call it a bad idea. The tents we used to use were mostly just rented for a week or two. But you don't have to go so big and there's a lot of options today that didn't exist awhile back which helps to bring down costs.

rabbis were basically traveling teachers so its not far off the same concept.

I just think that in a way we're acting like the "new (religious) kid on the block" and we're concerned with how the others will look at us and how much we look like them. Sometimes you just have to step fully into your path because outside influence causes half-stepping.

Brick wrote: You yourself talk about the Jedi from the films as if they really do exist:

No... come on, guys. Seriously? The title of the thread is "Following the Myth". I don't think the OP is remotely saying the Jedi are real, but rather citing the mythical Jedi from the Films as being the "genuine article" vs what what we are attempting to emulate. This is not to denigrate anyone but rather to give honor to the source material from which we are (and should) draw ideas and inspiration.

And I think some of us are just more honest about it. Personally, I'm influenced by Yoda as much as the apostle Paul. It doesn't really even matter if either of them were real or not. It just doesn't. It's about their perspective which I can judge independently of their credibility. Some people look at you and who you are before listening to what you have to say. I think that's wrong. I'm pretty sure Yeshua/Jesus was a real person but he was made into a myth and did not do all the things people claim he did. Yoda may not be a real person but he was likely based on one. Luke wasn't a real person but was likely inspired by one. See where I'm going? Many myths were inspired by real people and events but the whole story or even the story itself isn't true. But the story itself is just a vehicle for information and wisdom, not to be taken literally. And that IS something I took away from JC (Joseph Campbell).

So when it comes to the teachings of the Jedi, they exist within the realm of the lore or myth. If a shaman tells a story about father sky and mother Earth and uses these allegorical characters to teach parables, it doesn't make the parables any less real. Jesus told stories too but the teachings were real. He simply expressed them through story telling because it was easier for people to understand and they could get emotionally or ideologically invested in it. I think its simply a teaching tool. And art often uses fiction to teach real lessons. It's not meant to take literally but its not meant to discard or discount the lessons either just because it has aliens or killer robots or someone choosing between a red pill and a blue pill. All these things were based on something real. And we use that real source as a source of legitimacy and credibility to support Jediism as more than just "star wars nerdology". So since that is true, it doesn't get negated when you teach lessons using fictional characters. It doesn't lose value when you teach it in parable form. If anything it may gain value; the value of the story itself as it blends all of these ideas together. I can talk about all the positive values of the Jedi but I 100% think it loses value without contrasting it to the Sith. For me at least, I think it is the middle where these two sides clash and collide where we learn the most about each side and can judge their value and substance.

Thank you Zealot, yes that is what I mean. Why not follow the myth of the Jedi as it was written and if source material like from Joeseph campbell is relevant well we should listen to him and try to live as he describes in embracing the myth!

Rex is mean so I will not respond to him so this next part is for Brick. i am not crazy so please dont think that. I am committed. I wonder if you have been doing this so long you have lost your desire for it? In any case what Joseph says is that societies today are moving so fast that they have lost the ability to listen to and learn from their myths. Stuff gets misinterperted like christians have done, adding in all sorts of irrelevant stuff and redefining terms and making things to complicated by trying to force everybody to think like you. And then it gets all messed up and we lose site of the message. He says to keep our myths pure and take them where we can so that we can actually live like we are supposed to live. Old myths are not for us but new ones can be. When you mix all sorts of stuff up your morals get all messed up and just look at how bad the christians are! they hate everybody and are not accepting of others except themselves and they have all these crazy ideas about God.

Thats not for me. I want a pure myth to live by like my people before me did. The last video I watched was about story tellers and how the animals were our friends and showed us great things. And because we lived like the animals did we knew who we were and how to behave. That doesnt happen any more today and we have like a million genders now because no one knows how to be a man or a woman amymore! I think the Jedi myth can show us this again. a lifetime of dedication to a view of life that is pure. I want a pure Jedi life and I think its the most important thing to get out there and show that to everybody so they can know too!

Nope, I get it. I know exactly what you're talking about because I was raised a denomination that used to have what we called "tent meetings" all the time. It's actually pretty simple and it is part of what increased its membership dramatically. You just pitch a tent in a park or whatever, pass out flyers in the area, and people come to hear the message. It's very simple. I don't know if we're organized enough to actually do something like that but I can't call it a bad idea.

That's our main method of getting new memberships for the fencing club....

The hard part is making sure the local council knows the lunatics with swords in the park are not up to mischief....

Oh, as for the main thrust of this thread - May I suggest a "primer" in philosophies? Jediism is not exactly a path itself, but an understanding of paths.

If you head off and read the Tao Te Ching, (or the Tao of Pooh, if you prefer) The Art of War, the Book of Five Rings, something more fun like the 1st Earth Battalion Operations Field Manual, I like The Republic and The Satanic Bible and Beyond Good and Evil but I'm a little "Western" in my Jediism)

I have not read it, but some like "Rules for a Knight" as a modern take...

My intent is not to be a "gatekeeper" as such, but I suppose to assist in introducing why your comments may not be resonating as well as you'd hope with your audience - many here have delved into numerous philosophies as part of their Jedi Journey, and while it may not have made them "wiser" as such, it has made them more "intellectual" in their consideration of things.

I'm not sure how to phrase this...I think the word is somewhere near "Jargon" - in a group of people (lets call them peers for lack of a better word) talking about a matter of common interest, there is an assumed level of background knowledge and understanding.

I'm not saying you have to have that, you can do your path however, but you might find you are understood better by the people you are trying to communicate with if you share the same "foundation" thinking (which is more or less what the IP is trying to achieve)

But I thought the foundation was understood? Isnt it Star Wars mythology?

No, Star wars is the veneer, the latest coat of paint if you will, the sizzle of the sausage.

You have discovered it, and hopefully by the end of this conversation you will ask the questions..

What is a Jedi?

Okay, but Why?

Okay, but Why?

Okay, but Why?

and that will lead you down a path (not necessarily a "Right" path, but hey)

dig through the Myth find out why a Jedi is a Taoist, why a Jedi is a Samurai, why a Jedi is a Knight, why a Jedi is an Ubermensch.....

and then you might see that Star Wars is not any special "Pure" form of Jediism, but part of it, a reflection of it perhaps?

Since I'm at a coffee shop staring at a street - Mazdas are Cars, but Cars are not Mazdas...

every time you see a Mazda you are seeing a car....but nothing about it being a Mazda is it's carness

(Mazda is just a brand of car, in case that metaphor is going absolutely no where)

ANYWAY - Do the IP, if at any stage it's not for you, then godspeed, but I feel many of your questions would be answered there, and my old-as-the-internet trollbells are jingling just a tad, so I don't know how much further I'll go with explaining it (keeping in mind any explanations are mine only, I'm just some guy in a coffee shop, and lack any titles, robes, or jaunty hats to show my authority)

I forgot to mention - much of the "recommended reading" for those on a Jedi Path can be found at

https://templeofthejediorder.org/library

The whole thing isn't exactly mandatory study, but a selection of works found useful by TotJO Jedi for their path, (and sufficiently old as to not require much in the way of expenditure - if you want more contemporary writings, you may have to go into a book shop and hand over some hard-earned)