Can't be a Jedi if you support Trump...?

OB1Shinobi wrote: Ive seen many articles and videos of leftists fomenting the same kind of bigotry, resentment, mis-characterization of facts and generally faulty-logic that klansmen use to justify hating blacks and jews.

Yep - even speaking as a leftie, I would sadly have to agree with that. Some - and certainly not all - on the left have embraced the same form of fundamentalist certainty and rightness that characterizes klansmen and other brands of religious terrorists. It pains me to see it each time it appears, as an exhibition of that kind of behavior discredits those staunch progressives who are more thoughtful, and able to interact respectfully with others unlike themselves.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Naziism has absolutely no chance of gaining a foothold here, SJWism arguably does.

I think either could happen. There is a growing movement celebrating fascism now in numerous countries - Hungary, Poland, the Nordic countries, France, Brazil, Bolivia, and here in the U.S., among others. In terms of membership, it's no more fringe than the most rigid segment of the SJW community - and is arguably more demonstrative.

OB1Shinobi wrote: INDIVIDUAL Jedi should be free to decide for themselves the nature of their service in the world, and where/how they ought to invest their time and energy. I think this approach results in most of us being at least a little bit political while protecting our shared space from becoming either an all-out political battlefield or gradually shaped into a political echo-chamber.

I would wholeheartedly agree. I have strong feelings about our current political structure, but feel I have zero authority over any other Jedi's political views. That is as it should be.

Omhu Cuspor wrote: Yep - even speaking as a leftie, I would sadly have to agree with that. Some - and certainly not all - on the left have embraced the same form of fundamentalist certainty and rightness that characterizes klansmen and other brands of religious terrorists. It pains me to see it each time it appears, as an exhibition of that kind of behavior discredits those staunch progressives who are more thoughtful, and able to interact respectfully with others unlike themselves.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Naziism has absolutely no chance of gaining a foothold here, SJWism arguably does.

I think either could happen.

Quick note: when i said “here” i meant TOTJO, specifically.

There is a growing movement celebrating fascism now in numerous countries - Hungary, Poland, the Nordic countries, France, Brazil, Bolivia, and here in the U.S., among others. In terms of membership, it's no more fringe than the most rigid segment of the SJW community - and is arguably more demonstrative.

Id like to see actual data on this. I keep hearing it and I'm sure its possible but i mostly only hear it from crazy jerkoffs like antifa and corporate owned, partisan hack networks like CNN. Id especially like the data to account for things like backlash against the anti-white sentiments of the left and unchecked immigration of second and third world muslims into modern, western countries. In fact, people assume the rise in fascism is all angry white men but (and I don't care if people call me an islamophobe) there are strains of islam that are total dog shit (and highly fascist) and which have no place in the civilized world. Imagine the westboro baptist church after 100 years of no legal consequences for their actions....now imagine 5000 wesboro fanatics moved into your city within the last 5 years. Unchecked immigration causes major resentments, most especially if the immigrating people hold vastly different beliefs and values compared to the native population. Not only do certain strands of far-right Islam count as contributing to the rise in fascism but backlash against immigration by the natives of countries with suddenly high influx of extreme islamists may be confused with fascist sentiment.

Terms are being thrown around frivolously. Whats the difference between fascism and nationalism? Is nationalism fundamentally racist or fundamentally civic? Is Trump a fascist? A nazi? Are Trump supporters nazis and/or fascists? Too many people are repeating what theyve heard without understanding what any of it even means.

Wikipedia on Islam terror attacks in Europe
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

From the IRA to the Islamic State: the Evolving Terrorism Threat in Europe
https://csis-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/publication/190103_EuropeanTerrorism_interior.pdf

Sex Trafficking of infidels by ISL
https://www.india.com/news/world/sex-slavery-human-trafficking-key-for-isis-boko-haram-to-lure-militants-and-raise-funds-report-2525852/

What Islamo-fascist sex trafficking looks in the UK
https://gellerreport.com/2019/05/40-arrested-muslim-sex-trafficking-gang.html/

Both the left and right are rotten at the edges. As bad as each other. I'd say a Jedi needs to be impartial; in accuracy, obviously truthful, fairly representative in being balanced in not ingratiating their bias by embellishing details to misrepresent the relevant realities. Not losing touch with reality to become a puppet of ideology basically! Not being discriminatory, not bullying... all the normal adult stuff in a world with less and less adults.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Omhu Cuspor wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Naziism has absolutely no chance of gaining a foothold here, SJWism arguably does.

I think either could happen.

Quick note: when i said “here” i meant TOTJO, specifically.

Ah, my apologies. I did not read the first appearance of that sentence in the way you intended. I agree.

There is a growing movement celebrating fascism now in numerous countries - Hungary, Poland, the Nordic countries, France, Brazil, Bolivia, and here in the U.S., among others. In terms of membership, it's no more fringe than the most rigid segment of the SJW community - and is arguably more demonstrative.

Id like to see actual data on this. I keep hearing it and I'm sure its possible but i mostly only hear it from crazy jerkoffs like antifa and corporate owned, partisan hack networks like CNN. ... Also, terms are being thrown around frivolously. Whats the difference between fascism and nationalism? Is nationalism fundamentally racist or fundamentally civic? Is Trump a fascist? A nazi? Are Trump supporters nazis and/or fascists? Too many people are repeating what theyve heard without understanding what any of it even means.

These are great challenges and questions. I expect a substantive response requires a fair amount of text, and may also steer us off the topic of this already-ponderous thread. If the assertion that fascism is on the rise can be shown to be valid, we will probably see that Trump is a symptom more than a cause of it and the dialog will evolve in a way that goes way beyond his impact on affairs. Do you think we should start a new thread? If so, I'd be happy to kick it off, or you can if you'd rather.

It'd also be helpful to know what kind of sources you'd consider legitimate. I don't disagree with your assessment of CNN and other major networks, but in other conversations like this I'm in the habit of turning to them as that's what most people I encounter seem to believe is credible. Particularly when it comes to the more tangible questions you've raised, it'd be helpful to understand what kind of sources you prefer.

Finally OB1Shinobi, thank you for the tone of this dialog, In the online world, it is a welcome experience to engage in a dialog where we can challenge one another's assumptions and still be respectful, and both be more concerned with getting at the truth than in proving ourselves right. I suppose that is a part of what Jediism is all about.

Im interested in having the discussion but i am drained already, lol. No way i will open another topic, especially tonight. If you want to open it, please do. I have been pretty busy lately and i cant promise i will reply immediately but I will do my best and i definitely think its a conversation thats worth having.

Fair enough. I may have difficulty getting to this quickly as well, so actually appreciate the opportunity to go at this casual-like.

Malicious wrote: Okay Trump ran on building the wall which is being built even though most Democrats not all but most tried to stop this , tax reductions which he did , more jobs which he did , lowered the unimplemented numbers especially with minorities , crack down on illegal immigration which he did and a few other things that I can't remember . I'm sorry but to the best of my terrible memory I forgotten which candidates I was talking about that in the past went back or did not fulfill their campaign promises .https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.economist.com/united-states/2019/06/08/democratic-presidential-candidates-are-making-promises-they-cannot-deliver

Most of the campaign promises that most of the Democrats running for president in 2020 can't be fufilled like Medicare for all , free college , adding a bunch new justices for the supreme Court ect . First of just a lone the Medicare for all would have a big negative impact on the economy and would make healthcare itself terrible possibly way worse . What kind of doctor that makes a six figure income would go for a plan that makes them only have a five figure income and if they do go for it then the doctors won't have much of a ascentive do it right or good for the matter .

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2017/01/28/why-president-trumps-border-wall-is-an-example-of-bad-leadership/#11f8d64d26cf

[T]he state with the longest Mexican border is Texas - and of its 38 congressional members (36 in Congress, 2 in the Senate and 25 Republican) not one (not one) supports building the wall. The district with the longest border (800 miles) is represented by Republican Will Hurd, who said "building a wall is the most expensive and least effective way to secure the border."

Ignoring all the movie references here (which, in my book, have nothing to do with real-life Jediism): I think a Jedi knight should strive to have a balanced mind, should try to be a role-model to others, a mediator and a man of peace. Is any of this possible if one is involved in politics or radically chooses sides? I doubt it. Personally I know I wouldn't be able to. If others manage to achieve this: hats off!

Jedi Believe wrote: In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.
In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin.

I personally think that a jedi can have whatever political beliefs if it is not physically harming someone and causing violence generated from themselves. However if I had tp pick a certain area of political beliefs it would be independent and you vote on whoever gives the most political beliefs and actions for human rights. As we should think for ourselves and be more than just a party. However thats just my opinion.

Honestly, politics is a trade steeped in dishonesty and greed.
Anything political is intrinsically un-Jedi-like, no matter what anus is used as the example.
(there is a reason the Jedi Order and High Council preferred to stay out of the fallacious dealings of the Senate)

Now the issues ineffectively addressed by politics, such as climate change and international diplomacy, those are matters we might concern ourselves with.
These issues exist independently of the morally-decayed realm of politics, and affect us all in one way or another, directly and indirectly.

But the so-called political "leaders", regardless of any partisan affiliation, are as unworthy of respect as the lowliest criminal.
As far as I am concerned, politicians and the media (and it's pundits) are vultures and bottom-feeders, making a dishonest living off of distorting the truth in their own favor and appealing to people's prejudices.

Truth exists independently of the political realm.

CaesarEJW wrote: Anything political is intrinsically un-Jedi-like, no matter what anus is used as the example...
The so-called political "leaders", regardless of any partisan affiliation, are as unworthy of respect as the lowliest criminal.
As far as I am concerned, politicians and the media (and it's pundits) are vultures and bottom-feeders, making a dishonest living off of distorting the truth in their own favor and appealing to people's prejudices.

No anuses to be used here, but it seems a bit reductive and lazy to just typecast every politician as criminal. Is it that only evil people in your opinion become politicians or that becoming a politician makes everyone evil?

To me, it seems more like politicians realize their constituents are too lazy to be educated and involved in the political process. Politicians know they will be elected if they tell us what we want to hear, and we let them do so.

I'm more likely to agree with someone who comes to a totally different conclusion if they do so with strong reasoning rather than someone with similar views to me who does so for the wrong reasons. Jediism (as steam pointed out) is explicitly political, so reading into George Lucas' fiction for counterexamples doesn't abridge what we do believe here.

Cyan Sarden wrote: Ignoring all the movie references here (which, in my book, have nothing to do with real-life Jediism): I think a Jedi knight should strive to have a balanced mind, should try to be a role-model to others, a mediator and a man of peace. Is any of this possible if one is involved in politics or radically chooses sides? I doubt it. Personally I know I wouldn't be able to. If others manage to achieve this: hats off!

ahhh... you say movie references but then you say "Jedi knight". Come now... You're on a website called Temple of the Jedi Order. References should be expected at this point. We simply draw a line distinguishing real world from fantasy. However, drawing parallels and inspiration from fiction is what EVERY religion does. If we do not do this it's almost like denying TOTJO's fundamental identity as a religion.

With that being said, one should seek balance in ALL THINGS. This includes ideology and political views. If one cannot get involved in anything, be it politics, sports, career, activism, marriage, parenthood, etc. without seeking balance then I don't understand how a person calls themselves a Jedi. One of the things I didn't like in Christianity was how many people seemed to act and dress up for that one day a week, and the religion didn't seem to permeate the rest of their lives. They knew how a Christian was supposed to act and that's how they acted when they were in church, and to a certain degree, around other members of that church. This isn't true for everyone, of course. However, the purpose of religion is beliefs and practices that support one's spiritual journey, which... is the growth and maturity of one's character.

The beliefs can be figments of the imagination. The practices can be repetitious cultural events simply invoked almost by muscle memory. But that character... who you are inside... whether hero or villain. That person is who you take with you, no matter who you are, no matter what you do, no matter where you go. There is no escaping that person. And that person interacts with the world around them. That person can either make things better in their environment, or they can make things worse. They can balance situations for greater good, or throw off the balance for self interest.

This question, at its heart, is the idea of what one fundamentally believes as a Jedi. Who are you, inside. Who are you really? Do you know? There are certain things we, as Jedi, not we as individuals, but things we corporately agree upon, as stated in our doctrines. How can one be a Jedi if they reject those principles? And if one says "oh well, I just don't apply those principles to X" then I think it's more than fair to ask why. Wouldn't you agree?

A Catholic priest molests children. Should they be a catholic priest? Are they a Catholic? Are they a Christian? Was this simply a mistake? Or is it a lifestyle they're simply trying to hide? And maybe the Catholic church protects them because, on some level, they understand that such a perversion may be a byproduct of the unnatural celibate lifestyle they impose upon ordained priests; because THEY deemed it to be more holy and sacred and divine, even though the God that they believe in gave men and women clear physical traits, chemical, and psychological programming to be fruitful and multiply.

And yes... there is a balance between masculine and feminine. There is a balance but we are on one side or the other. This is natural. Being completely in the middle, would obviously not be natural. So what makes us one side versus the other? What "force" drives us to be masculine or feminine? And what is the magic of the two coming together? This is why, in my very humble opinion, debates are not to be avoided but encouraged! These exchange of ideas or not unlike the exchange of ideas in nature when bees pollinate flowers. And we all know what happens if they stop. Do you want to live in that world?

Human intercourse is also like this. Not to be crass, but it can be slow and soft. But it can also be fast and rough. It's validity doesn't depend on style but rather on "substance". I think sometimes we think too much on how things look; too much on disagreement as if the act of disagreeing is wrong or bad or something to detest. I think it is the opposite. I love the fact that you may have different views than me. I love the fact that you have different ideas swimming around in your head. I love the fact that my brothers and sisters in the Jedi order are not carbon copies of any one person. It is our differences that are beautiful and those differences need to be expressed just as differences in species are expressed in nature.

Peace is not found simply by ignoring differences and acting as if it doesn't matter. Peace is found through understanding, making sure both sides are heard, respected, and ultimately finding common ground leading to compromise where there is an exchange, not only of ideas, but solutions.

_Vergere_ wrote: Would it be wrong to suggest that Jedi should be apolitical?

In my experience, people who fancy themselves "apolitical" are usually grossly underestimating their own potential for creating an impact in the world.

Of course, I absolutely agree all human beings should be well versed in critical thinking to avoid the mistake of becoming a political party fanatic. It's safe to say that all sides of the political spectrum has their good people, their crazy ones, and their corrupt ones.

In other words, we should each closely examine what we believe and why. But at the end of the day, you take a stand and make a choice. You test it, gather feedback and if needed, shift directions. But burying your head in the sand thinking politics does not affect you or is unimportant is cowardice. And cowardice is convenient... until it's not. And then, it's too late.

Manu wrote: In other words, we should each closely examine what we believe and why. But at the end of the day, you take a stand and make a choice. You test it, gather feedback and if needed, shift directions. But burying your head in the sand thinking politics does not affect you or is unimportant is cowardice. And cowardice is convenient... until it's not. And then, it's too late.

Dude... very well said. Powerful even.

Manu wrote: In other words, we should each closely examine what we believe and why. But at the end of the day, you take a stand and make a choice. You test it, gather feedback and if needed, shift directions. But burying your head in the sand thinking politics does not affect you or is unimportant is cowardice. And cowardice is convenient... until it's not. And then, it's too late.

I agree with ZealotX. That was terrific, Manu.

Thank you.

Vote for Manu.

Alright... So.... about yesterday....


Let's go back to what Kenobi said:
Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy!
Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader: If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.


What we saw at the capitol yesterday was a mob seeking to undo a democratic and fair election. I fully support extensive investigation of voting so that everyone can be on the same page with exactly what happened; so that people aren't doing what Trump did on the phone with Georgia officials, where he seemed to believe and embrace rumors and conspiracy theories (as long as they benefitted him).

But what happened yesterday...

Imagine if you were there, hypothetically inside the fictional Star Wars universe, at the time when Palpatine LEGALLY gained control of the Senate. What would you do? People can pretend not to be political as if it doesn't matter, but it does. It does because it affects the lives of millions of people. What would the United States even be if we allowed a person to simply stay in office because they didn't like the results of the election?

Crazy.

And if he could prove that the election was stolen then he would have proved it in court. You don't get to lose in court and still have your way like you still won; like some kind of child.


We are political in so much that, at the very least, we should uphold and defend democracy. So when it comes to Trump supporters, which has become a cult of personality, we have now seen the full result of how very un-American and undemocratic this can be. The image of a man replacing the American flag with a Trump flag should be seared into our memories forever. As a failure. It should have never gotten that far. And although I do feel like saying "I told you so" like a machine gun aimed at many people who have defended the Trump cult, I will not. Instead, I only ask that those of good conscience, if they see a person under the Trump indoctrination... to intellectually defend democracy and the Constitution of the United States.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zLiYwUG7Uo&ab_channel=CNN

This makes BLM look like cub scouts in comparison

The good news is that Trump resigned in reaction to the property damage and violence. Dealing with absolutes and charging into secure property is not the wisest move no matter what side you are on.