Can't be a Jedi if you support Trump...?

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30 Aug 2019 19:22 #342848 by ZealotX

VixensVengeance wrote: Long live Hitlers Ideologies and long live Trump! May he reign forever! I will carry his flag to my death!!


We're probably not going to agree as this Nazi thing has become emotionally charged and is a little radio active right now, but I think some people got a little confused if I'm reading correctly; and I try to. I'm not always right. However, I think there was a bit of disconnect between supporting Trump and voting for Trump. And what is meant by support.

Let me give an example.

Carlos basically said, paraphrasing, yeah I voted for the guy but I don't like him.

This is not, to me, the same thing as being a Trump supporter.

There is no way I believe that every Republican knew that Trump was going to do everything he's doing before they voted for him. In fact, a lot of Republican voters, I know, thought he wasn't serious about even some of the things he was saying on the campaign trail. At no time during the campaign was he taken 100% seriously. So no, I would never ever think that everyone who voted for Trump is also a Trump supporter.

What is a Trump supporter?

A Trump supporter is someone who actively sees everything he's doing and supports it. If you voted for Trump and think he's doing a decent job because you listen to right wing news sources that never report on all the crazy policies that are killing people, harming the environment, misappropriating funds for the border wall, etc. then you may think you support Trump but you're supporting a version of Trump that doesn't really exist (or is at least only a half truth). I'm not mad at those people. I just wish they were better informed and armed with the WHOLE story.

A lot of people think Trump support is the same thing as supporting the party because Trump is the leader of the party. And yeah... Trump and Mitch McConnell have both done a lot of damage to the republican brand by allowing Trump to take over in a sense. So it is "becoming" the party of Trump. However, it's not and shouldn't be taken as being synonymous. So I think people need to slow down and consider that supporting republican policies, or even far right wing policies, isn't exactly the same as support for Trump. That is simply support for any POTUS insomuch that you think he's doing the things you voted for. And in some cases he is and so the Republicans are talking about that and using those things to distract from the more monstrous things the administration is also doing. The left wing media is mostly focused on that and not the kept promises that Republicans are happy about. Each side has about 50% of the picture. My thing is look at the whole picture. Even if the guy is doing some things you like, don't ignore the other things. Because when it was Obama is was flipped. Republicans acted like Obama was the devil and a dictator signing executive order after executive order. The reality?

# President Total Executive Orders
42 Bill Clinton 364
43 George W. Bush 291
44 Barack Obama 276
45 Donald Trump 119

276 in 8 years (and less than GWB) give you an average of 34.5/yr and Trump has 119 in under 3 with an average of 39/yr. Obama wore the wrong pants and Republican attacked him. And it seemed like Republicans wanted everyone to see the threat of Obama and his spending. Obama created a lot of debt but he saved us from a full blown recession and it led to a healthy economy which Trump promptly took credit for as soon as he was sworn in when economics don't work that fast. So if you support a healthy and strong economy, that's great. So do I. That doesn't make a Trump supporter nor does it make you not a Trump supporter. If you like a strong military and you think Trump agrees with that and Trump wants to increase the military budget and he creates "Space Force" (which is ridiculous and protecting satellites should be the job of the "Air Force" but Trump doesn't know how space works... that common support for the military does not mean you are a Trump supporter. No, that means you support the troops. It's not the same thing. One side constantly tries to own certain ideals. One side tries to own patriotism and the Troops but this is hyper partisanism. It's propaganda. You can be conservative and be a Democrat if you want.

Being a true Trump supporter means that you see the WHOLE picture and you're okay with even the bad stuff that, for the rest of us, is what is defining his presidency. So understand, that we're looking at the whole thing in 2 different ways; even the definition of what it means to support Trump.
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30 Aug 2019 19:44 #342849 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

ZealotX wrote:
Being a true Trump supporter means that you see the WHOLE picture and you're okay with even the bad stuff that, for the rest of us, is what is defining his presidency. So understand, that we're looking at the whole thing in 2 different ways; even the definition of what it means to support Trump.



I see the whole picture and normally I might agree with some of what you said. But no more. I support trump unequivocally at this point. Part of the Sith path is the path of Chaos, the return to the Abyss. If we cant be reasonable enough in this forum to keep from calling each other Nazis just for our views, then I'm advocating that return to the abyss. You don't want to be reasonable and intelligent and civil in your responses (not you particularly but the knights here in general) then lets burn this planet to the ground! I hope Trump nukes this entire planet! I may be dead and in the abyss but that is my home and at least in that regard the VJews will be dead as well.

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam

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30 Aug 2019 19:49 #342850 by CaesarEJW
Bigoted, anti-intellectual, illiterate, narcissistic, dishonest, etc.
I can't support anyone like that.
However, I do not think lesser of his supporters, as long as they are peaceful and rational beings.
I just consider them sadly mis-informed, that is all.
You cannot disparage those that are simply ignorant.
This world needs more understanding, better communication, vastly superior education, and a big 'ol dollop of selflessness to replace all the damn negativity, ignorance, and greed that has become rampant in our society.

“Muddy water is best cleared by leaving it alone.” - Alan Watts
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30 Aug 2019 19:50 #342851 by ZealotX

VixensVengeance wrote: The question then becomes one of Hypocrisy then. Are some insults more cutting than others? Did steam blatantly violate this places terms of service by personally attacking others in a very personal manner and is that viscous attack heinous enough to warrant punishment. I have seen bannings for less here very recently. Why is this act of outright aggression just ignored or only given a slap? because he is a Knight and protected? The moderators here, by direct conversation, have said to me that this was left in place as a means of discussion. So lets discuss it. Is it ok to just call another member here a Nazi? This conversation was civil before a Knight of the order entered, a leader in this community, that has raised hell and wreaked havok in personal attack. Is that just ok?


Actually... if anyone got called a Nazi or nazi sympathizer (which I think involved a lot of misunderstanding which can be exaggerated by passion)... was unfortunately Carlos. So that was like Jedi on Jedi crime right there. Anyone else was kind of lumped up into the sum of "her membership" (referencing the Temple). I don't know who that officially includes or excludes. But it was certainly unjustified. Obviously, Carlos isn't a Nazi and that shouldn't have been said. But I do agree with one sentiment, though. If a person is against Nazi ideology they should be willing to come out and oppose it, not argue on the same side of it or stay silent in the middle of a discussion that involves it. I'm not saying you should join ANTIFA but in many cases Nazi ideology survives (as I've said in other threads) because of isolation. If someone around you has those ideas and you never voice an opinion against them, its more likely that person will be reinforced in that view and be in a position to be influenced into an even more extreme view.

When someone says something we disagree with... wither Jedi, sith, or nazi (not referring to anyone on this site) we should all use our voices (imo) to fight those things. Because silence can be extremely dangerous.
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30 Aug 2019 19:53 #342852 by CaesarEJW
"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"

“Muddy water is best cleared by leaving it alone.” - Alan Watts
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30 Aug 2019 20:02 #342853 by ZealotX

VixensVengeance wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
Being a true Trump supporter means that you see the WHOLE picture and you're okay with even the bad stuff that, for the rest of us, is what is defining his presidency. So understand, that we're looking at the whole thing in 2 different ways; even the definition of what it means to support Trump.



I see the whole picture and normally I might agree with some of what you said. But no more. I support trump unequivocally at this point. Part of the Sith path is the path of Chaos, the return to the Abyss. If we cant be reasonable enough in this forum to keep from calling each other Nazis just for our views, then I'm advocating that return to the abyss. You don't want to be reasonable and intelligent and civil in your responses (not you particularly but the knights here in general) then lets burn this planet to the ground! I hope Trump nukes this entire planet! I may be dead and in the abyss but that is my home and at least in that regard the VJews will be dead as well.


You already know that I'm all for you being yourself. If you are a sith on this site, I fully support being allowed to act that way. If its wrong it should be countered with intellectual arguments and not punishments from on high.

But you and I have always been able to cut through the BS and have an honest debate on the merits. This seems more like blind rage, ignoring the merits. If someone else doesn't want to be "reasonable and intelligent and civil" in their responses, why should that, if you're stronger than they are, be able to change you and make you unreasonable or unintelligent or uncivil? I'm asking Jedi to sith. Why lower yourself to the folly of a foe? If he is wrong then you'll simply be wrong too. If he is unreasonable then you'll simply be unreasonable too.

Steam used a very raw and passionate argument that was still based on his beliefs that Jedi (because the thread is about Jedi support for Trump, not sith so it was never really directed at you... ...unless you're secretly a Jedi? Not sure if you considered that) shouldn't support Trump and should be against fascism without any equivocation. So likewise, I can't tell anyone how to be sith, but I would have imagined that you would use that passion and given an even more passionate response that was based on your beliefs; actual beliefs. I don't think these are your actual beliefs or else his accusation wouldn't have offended you even slightly. The fact that it did tells me you're not a Nazi. So can we return to having a conversation where, even if you aren't civil, we can at least agree to voice our beliefs?

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30 Aug 2019 20:04 #342854 by ZealotX

CaesarEJW wrote: "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"


Nice, I was trying to think of that exact quote but my brain betrayed me.

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30 Aug 2019 20:15 #342855 by Kobos
This thread has obviously gotten very emotionally charged, as a result I want discussion to continue, I will be removing any praise of Adolf Hitler and issue note this as an issue. Both the intail action and reaction are in the wrong here. Basically play nice or consquences are coming for anyone that continues the idea like this, calling members Nazi's is not okay (without direct evidence of such) and on the same note praising Hitler in any way even in sarcasm as the post suggests is not okay. Have respect for each other.

Much Love, Professionally irritated voice,
Kobos

PS. Zealot I will drop some stuff on AOC and Ohmar later (I do want to have that discussion) when I have some more time and am not at work.

"Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal"-Immortal Technique

You can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile- Men without hats

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
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30 Aug 2019 20:19 - 30 Aug 2019 21:25 #342857 by Brick

VixensVengeance wrote:

Deimos wrote: Okay fair enough. I don't think anyone is saying steamboat is right. At least thats not how I read it.


The question then becomes one of Hypocrisy then. Are some insults more cutting than others? Did steam blatantly violate this places terms of service by personally attacking others in a very personal manner and is that viscous attack heinous enough to warrant punishment. I have seen bannings for less here very recently. Why is this act of outright aggression just ignored or only given a slap? because he is a Knight and protected? The moderators here, by direct conversation, have said to me that this was left in place as a means of discussion. So lets discuss it. Is it ok to just call another member here a Nazi? This conversation was civil before a Knight of the order entered, a leader in this community, that has raised hell and wreaked havok in personal attack. Is that just ok?


Steams post was originally removed by a moderator. Steam and said moderator then had a discussion over PM. For whatever reason, the moderator then thought that it worth reinstating Steams original comment - presumably so that it could be objected to and thus further discussion. Several people have objected to it and stated that they believe Steam is wrong (myself included). How is that hypocritical?

People have been banned for less, true. But that usually comes after several warnings and isn't the just after the first instance. This is the first instance of Steam doing this in quite some time, and as we've seen he has been warned. Should he continue, then he may well be banned for all we know.

No, IMO it is NEVER acceptable to call other members of this temple Nazis. No, IMO it is not OK.

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Last edit: 30 Aug 2019 21:25 by Brick.
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30 Aug 2019 20:22 #342858 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

ZealotX wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote: "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"


Nice, I was trying to think of that exact quote but my brain betrayed me.



You are right, The key to victory is escalation, not dying for your cause but getting the other dumb bastard to die for his. How do you do that? By doing whatever it takes.

You seem incredibly passionate about addressing my posts and yet you have ignored Steams and not condemned or engaged him directly. He may have called Carlos a Nazi but he called anyone that supports Trump a Nazi as well. In fact he used the very idea of this quote. Do nothing against Trump and you are a Nazi. So be it, I will let the hate flow, why not. What difference does it make anyway? Knights are representatives of the very core of what this place stands for right? So this place condones the calling of others names like Nazi. So what reason do I have to act any differently? You can do nothing to stop me short of administrative action.

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam

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