Can't be a Jedi if you support Trump...?

Disclaimer: I don't support Trump. At least in regards to his methods. His concepts, such as strong borders, I do think have merit. His methods, as his boorish nature, I do not support.

With that out of the way, I was watching a channel called Jedi Living. On said channel was a link to his Amazon page for his books, with contained another link to, presumably, his website On said site, someone wrote a piece with the statement, "You cannot be a Jedi and Trump supporter". At first glance, I was skeptical, given that this is a person who does not know me, telling me what I can and can not be. Granted, after some thought, I understood the mindset, given that Trump has said some harsh things over his presidency.

That being said, I do feel the need to mention that this sounds like the Scotsman fallacy. For those unfamiliar, this is where one says some like, "You're not a true X unless you believe Y. Not a verbatim instance, but it still sounds like the fallacy all the same.

What are your thoughts as Jedi on this particular subject matter?

-Deimos

I thought jedi were supposed to be neutral when it came to politics? Only the Sith take sides! Lol

The logic is, I assume as the author didn't go too far into Trumps rhetoric, due to his condescending view on immigrants and the people in the middle east. I personally think both political sides have their own issues, so I don't fully support either. I consider my stance more of an "anti-stupid" one if you will, but I do understand how one could state that Jedi beliefs and Trumps don't mix well.

I am not a jedi but my understanding is they dont take political sides. This person you refer to seems to be biased and under informed, neither should be traits of jedi or sith. For example Trump does not have a condescending view of immigrants. Hell he is married to one for fucks sake!!

Agreed. However I do think his statements towards hispanics, illegal immigrants specifically, did garner some backlash, to which I see why considering he insinuated that illegal immigrants were all rapists and criminals. DISCLAIMER: I don't think he meant it that way, but regardless that's how the left took that statement. So if this person took it that way as well, then I can understand his mindset. It does sound vaguely Sith Empire-ish in the sense that, at least in SWTOR, the Empire does have a sort of downward look toward aliens.

Intent and reception are two different things to be sure. For example I never took his comments in the way the left took them. I feel like I took them in an unbiased way that was based in realistic expectation. Many immigrants that are willing to break the law to cross a boarder illegally will also have less conviction to not break other laws like rape or murder. Makes sense to me. However the left will use the statement to twist it to their own advantage in their efforts to gain otherwise unjust power. My opinion is that it makes the left no different than those breaking the law to cross the boarder.

As for Jedi Living... consider the source. The founder is notoriously left leaning, living in a left leaning state.

You are correct that the statement itself is a fallacy, as it fails to acknowledge the whole range of possibilities as to why someone may or may not choose to support Trump.

Vixens: That being said, I would like to bring up AOC, just for a moment. I happen to watch a conservative YT channel by the name of Hunter Avalone. In one of his videos, he brings up the higher tax debate, which I think is the New Deal, but it could be just AOC in general, so correct me if otherwise. Regardless he points out how the left AND right misuse the higher taxes from the 50's. The left says that the higher taxes, for the rich anyway is what constituted the high economy, which wasn't accounting for other factors, such as not reporting it or simple avoidance. The right, however, claimed that everyone would taxed at the 70% AOC wanted, which is also false.

So stating that only the left has issues is a bit skewed. Assuming that's what you're getting at of course.

Manu: To be fair, he wasn't the one that wrote it. It was just on his site. That being said he does seem left leaning, and CA is very much a left state. I don't really know much about him, as from the videos I've seen he doesn't bring politics in very much, if at all.

VixensVengeance wrote: I am not a jedi but my understanding is they dont take political sides. This person you refer to seems to be biased and under informed, neither should be traits of jedi or sith. For example Trump does not have a condescending view of immigrants. Hell he is married to one for fucks sake!!

Uh... this is not true.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy! Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader: If you're not with me, then you're my enemy. Obi-Wan Kenobi: Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.

Loyalty to the Republic would be choosing a side. Ironically, this is the very conversation people tend to use to say Jedi shouldn't take sides, which, in an argument, is taking a side (or "position").

So I think its not saying Jedi don't take sides but rather that Jedi do not assume that either side is 100% correct. So if you apply this to American politics the same way Kenobi applied it to the Republic, Jedi could technically all choose the same political party if they wanted to. At least this idea is not precluded. I'm not saying all Jedi should. But in working together towards the same end, canon Jedi always seemed more like their own party but used whatever systems were already in place to work with. When the Republic went too far astray they were basically all Rebels. But obviously its not like the Republican party has launched an Order 66 style attack on Jediism.

One could draw parallels to Trump's treatment of Muslims though. My thing is that it's always interesting when something's not happening directly to you... a lot of people just don't feel it at all, it seems. And then I hear "Trump sometimes says harsh things".... and I have to take a breath... like what? When inside I'm screaming like HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW BAD HE IS!!!

Sorry. I digress.

There are significant reasons to oppose Trump. These reasons do not extend to being anti-Republican though. If anything Trump is the biggest danger to the Republican party because unlike what happened with the Tea party takeover, Trump has no real ideology of his own. His is a cult of personality. And so people just give him a pass on everything and don't really even pay attention to everything he's doing and how its hurting people; including his own people and people he claimed he was going to help like farmers and steel workers. But real republic values are quickly vanishing. All the stuff about deficits and fiscal conservatism... poof... gone. This is why many Republicans have either abandoned the party in general or just stayed silent.

And it reminds me of how the canon Jedi stayed out of things like slavery on Tatooine even though... if they had ended slavery there would Anakin have gone to the dark side? I don't think so. Because it hit him personally. That was his mother. It's always someone's mother, someone's child, someone's sister. Kids locked up in cages... kids dying in cages.... we don't know them personally but that's someone's child. I don't see how a Jedi could be for that. I can see how a Jedi could be a republican. But I can't see how a Jedi could be for certain policies that cause unnecessary harm to people; and especially to children. We went past saying harsh things in 2016. This isn't the same guy who led lock her up chants and promised to pay legal bills for people in his crowds that beat up protesters. Now the guy targets and sends his FBI after black groups as if they're the biggest terrorists all while pro-white terrorists plot to bomb and shoot up the country and have been responsible for many attacks. Now people are chanting send her back.

And I have to say... this is not normal.

We have a guy in the white house who thinks we should nuke hurricanes and avoid forest fires by raking leaves. Not only did he pull out of the Paris climate accord but he just weakened the endangered species act. WHY?? We're talking about a guy that keeps telling people that Americans aren't paying for tariffs. It's like he was counting on people being dumb and not even Googling anything he says to see if its true.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. This is just what comes to mind recently. Forget grabbing women by the genitals and just kissing them without permission. Forget Trump asking Russia to meddle in the election and the fact that they actually started working on it the same day. What about Trump recently saying that he would accept more help in the future even though it is illegal? I mean... it just never ends with this guy and if Barack Obama had said or done 1/100 of what Trump has.... omg.... I hate to even think about it. So YES... I can understand why a Jedi who follows politics would question how any Jedi could be (specifically) a Trump supporter. Because if you are a Jedi and you're Republican.... maybe you shouldn't be so "absolute" in that position that you support Trump as long as he gives you judges or as long as he gives you (assuming you're rich) a tax break, spending trillions we don't have. Look, I'm not saying you can't be a Jedi and support Trump. I just don't quite understand how one can possibly do that if you hold any Jedi values and actually know what (SPECIFICALLY) Trump and his administration are doing. It defies logic to me.

For example Trump does not have a condescending view of immigrants.

Wow... how did I miss this? I'm curious where you get your news from. Seriously. Like... not even joking.

No one thinks Trump has a "condescending view" of immigrants in general. He specifically attacks BROWN immigrants. Melania can tan all she wants to but she'll never be a shade that qualifies to be in that group. Melania, most likely, immigrated to the US ILLEGALLY because of the type of work visa she had. And then her parents came because she sponsored them. In other words... "chain migration" which Trump decries. So how is it that his own wife could be guilty of the very same things he complains about other people doing? Did she not come here to work? Is it not work that other Americans could do? Should she have qualified for an Einstein visa?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43256318

Yet, FOR SOME REASON, when human beings from the Southern border come... we need to build a wall. If you think this is about their status as an immigrant... I sincerely question your sight and possibly even grasp on reality. This is about where they are from. We already know how Trump feels about "s-hole countries".

Moreover, do you honestly think that if Melania got fat and ugly that he wouldn't want to divorce her or that he would care if she got deported? Whatever their relationship is, Melania knows more about what it is then we do and she's shown the world how much they mean to each other. Not to mention how often he cheated on her even while she was pregnant. So just because he married an immigrant who... omg just so happened to be a model... like that means something about how he feels about immigrants or immigration. It is hilarious to think he cares beyond how it affects one person; Donald J Trump.

I'd say that the title of this thread is accurate. Trump promotes fascist ideologies, aligning him with the Imperial and First Order forces in the film canon (as they're pastiches of Nazi and neo-Nazi scum), which the Jedi historically opposed (or should have).

RL Jedi have that whole "all people are equal" thing, which also doesn't jive well with a fascist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, misogynist compulsive liar being in charge.

Deimos wrote:
So stating that only the left has issues is a bit skewed. Assuming that's what you're getting at of course.

You are absolutely correct of course. I stated one side because the subject we were discussing was a statement about a specific presidential position. However the right is just as screwed up on just as many issues. The hope with Trump was that he reject the deep state policies of both sides and create some sort of new direction forward.

Is he accomplishing that? I think its really too early to tell, but I will say that his action so far has been positive growth in that direction. I personally agree with many of the policies he has implemented or is trying to implement and I believe the result will be a stronger United States. What remains to be seen is if those changes will become better permanent solutions or they will be dismantled over time again. I feel he is trying to take federal govt back to what it was meant to be and I personally love the fact that he is so politically volatile. He pulls no punches in that regard and that is impressive to me.

ZealotX wrote:

VixensVengeance wrote: I am not a jedi but my understanding is they dont take political sides. This person you refer to seems to be biased and under informed, neither should be traits of jedi or sith. For example Trump does not have a condescending view of immigrants. Hell he is married to one for fucks sake!!

Uh... this is not true.

Its not true that Jedi dont take sides? ok, I stand corrected. I was misinformed apparently. Im not a Jedi so I would not know as well as you.

ZealotX wrote: We have a guy in the white house who thinks we should nuke hurricanes.

I just have to stop you right here though. I actually laughed out loud at this statement!! How can you actually believe this??!! This is not true in the slightest and neither is most of the rest of your post. His wife was always legal despite any attempts to discredit her as well. In fact she is now a naturalized citizen of the US.

As a Jedi, I would say I do my best not to take sides so that I may see the truth more objectively...but I also vote, sooooo...

I think you can't be a student of peace in The Force and agree with some of his policies or methods.. but that goes for the majority of politicians in the sense that most seem to want to impose their ideals on everyone else..
.. and to impose yourself on someone is an act of war, not peace..

Uzima Moto wrote: ...most [politicians] seem to want to impose their ideals on everyone else..
.. and to impose yourself on someone is an act of war, not peace..

I dont see it that way at all. That seems like an extreme absolute view and I thought only Sith dealt in absolutes! :laugh:

Seriously to see politics in terms of peace or war is just not fair. Politicians represent the populations that have elected them and they serve those populations opinions and ideals not their own. I know nothing is perfect but this nation is a collection of views under both individual and group ideals and those we send to government are obligated to serve those ideals in the best manner they are able under the rules of the republic in which they serve.

Ac of War? Not always...should I not be imposing a bedtime on my child? Am I at war with my child, or at least, taking an action of War against them? No, this is conflict(or can be; Sometimes they just do what I ask)but not war. Don't fall for that dichotomy.

In "The Last Jedi" one of the things Rey sees in her vision of the force is the eggs dashed against rocks; was this war?

VixensVengeance wrote:

ZealotX wrote: We have a guy in the white house who thinks we should nuke hurricanes.

I just have to stop you right here though. I actually laughed out loud at this statement!! How can you actually believe this??!! This is not true in the slightest and neither is most of the rest of your post. His wife was always legal despite any attempts to discredit her as well. In fact she is now a naturalized citizen of the US.

HOW CAN I BELIEVE THIS?

In April he said that “the noise” from the [wind] turbines “causes cancer”
https://time.com/5649313/trump-wind-cancer-iowa/

What I can't believe is that you believe all of his denials. Because as soon as he is revealed to be a moron he walks it back and throws a tantrum. What you don't seem to get is that this is par for the course with Trump. People act like he's being attacked when people are just reporting what he actually said.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/26/politics/nuke-hurricanes-donald-trump/index.html

This is not new and he says so many things that no one ever has to make something up. There are plenty of things he really said, many of which are caught on tape. People on the right seem to do an excellent job at closing their eyes and ears and pretending he's honest. It's truly remarkable... the cognitive dissonance.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/03/media/reliable-sources-06-02-19/index.html

And I don't even need a link to describe what happened at the "Send her back" Trump rally when he later pretended that he did something to stop the crowd from that chant. No, I watched the tape. He paused while they were chanting and he said he sped up. But no, don't believe your lying eyes lol. When Trump lies about Obama getting Putin out of the G8 because Putin "outsmarted him" people on the right just assume he's telling the truth and everything else is "fake news". In reality, "fake news" is merely anything Trump doesn't like or doesn't make him look good. That's why he's even turning on FOX News because eventually they had to report actual reality. This cult of personality is ridiculous. How many so-called policies of Trump do you agree with? Be specific. And tell us if these are Republican policies or specifically Trump policies.

And on the whole "deep state" idea... Look, I'm no stranger to conspiracy theories. I thought a few of them were interesting and I was more into them in my younger days. But you have to realize, at some point, that there is a conspiracy to MAKE UP CONSPIRACIES!! Conspiracies, like everything else, is a product... which begets an industry. That industry can be influenced by outside MONEY. Alex Jones has sponsors. Alex Jones makes tons of money off people believing that SOMEHOW this known conspiracy theorist is just so good at getting information that people just constantly spill their guts to him. AND NO ONE ELSE. Not ABC, CBS, BBC, no... a conspiracy theorist is who you go to in order to drop real information you don't want confused for being a conspiracy theory. Oops? Conspiracy theories utilize fear and the imagination. It's just like seeing shapes in a dark room. Your mind fills in the rest. The dark room is a metaphor for fear of the government. As long as you're afraid of the government it is a lot easier to imagine all these nefarious plots. However the biggest and greatest manipulation of government is carried out in near plain sight in the form of lobbying. It's legal and therefore it is completely unnecessary to use illegal methods of pulling strings.

But let's move on... Melania. Did I not ask you if you thought she deserved the Einstein visa? If you're okay with that then who cares how brown people utilize the system? It doesn't matter. Because what you're saying is that if you have enough money you can simply buy your way around the law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2NHBjHNo_o

ZealotX wrote:

VixensVengeance wrote:

ZealotX wrote: We have a guy in the white house who thinks we should nuke hurricanes.

I just have to stop you right here though. I actually laughed out loud at this statement!! How can you actually believe this??!! This is not true in the slightest and neither is most of the rest of your post. His wife was always legal despite any attempts to discredit her as well. In fact she is now a naturalized citizen of the US.

HOW CAN I BELIEVE THIS?

In April he said that “the noise” from the [wind] turbines “causes cancer”

LMAO yup that one is a puzzler isn't it! No denying that one as he said it in a speech. Although we all do make mistakes right? This may be no different than Obama saying we had 58 States in a speech as well. Would I crucify Obama for this? No, at the most I would say... "oh man, that was stupid" and them move on.

So no I dont believe everything he says. I dont believe everything anyone says, including you, unless I do my own research and come to my own conclusions. So in that regard I find it rather inflammatory that you would imply I am closing my eyes and displaying the level of cognitive dissonance that you find "remarkable".

As for the "send her back" chant, yea Trump did not participate in that and has disavowed it. As for the "send her to jail" chant, well I will personally take up that call! Both the Clinton's should be in Jail for the rest of their lives.

As for policies I agree with, well that's opening a can of worms. How about instead of me making a list, why don't you pick out a few of your pet ones you find issue with and we shall discuss those?

As for my deep state comment, I said nothing about conspiracy and never meant to imply that. If that was the case I apologize. I meant long standing policies of either party that seem to just be assumed and not discussed by the party members. Things like right to life for republicans and right to the body for democrats. I am a right to body person but I am also a right to strong military so I fall in the middle of those issues. However I want to see them discussed intelligently, not just chanted by rote call because of a political affiliation. It seems to happen now more than not.

(BTW, I think Alex Jones is an idiot)

As for Melania's Visa, to answer your question I cant tell you if she deserved it or not because I was not the one required to justify its issuance. However I will defer to the immigration department and support their decision to justly issue such a visa. And I dont consider it illegal so as for the so called "brown people" you mention they still openly broke the law so no I do not have to accept that they just utilize the system any way they please. The fact remains that Melania still utilized a legal system and proper caveats to get what she needed to enter. Short of proof she paid off the system I will not condemn her on speculation just because you say so.

In any event, what if she did use some of her advantage to get what she needed to enter the country? Maybe she was great at BJs or she had someone call in a favor? Even so I know there are a lot of criteria for that sort of visa that includes someone as low as network engineering professionals so I would not see it to far fetched that her sort of profession has provisions for that type of visa. You forget I am not a Jedi, I am sith and I find that sort of power to achieve goals by all available means not only acceptable but desirable.

VixensVengeance wrote:
LMAO yup that one is a puzzler isn't it! No denying that one as he said it in a speech. Although we all do make mistakes right? This may be no different than Obama saying we had 58 States in a speech as well. Would I crucify Obama for this? No, at the most I would say... "oh man, that was stupid" and them move on.

Not aware of that Obama gaff but likely more of a teleprompter issue than actually telling someone in private conversation that he would like to visit all 58 states. That would be, I hope you can agree,... different. In other words, a person can say one thing when they mean another. They can have a slip of the tongue, get tongue tied, or whatever. But I'll remove "sound" from the wind turbines comment. That still leaves the idea that wind turbines cause cancer. That's moronic in my book, sorry. And because I know he's not the smartest tool in the shed that means I don't put other stupidity past his reach.

VixensVengeance wrote: So no I dont believe everything he says. I dont believe everything anyone says, including you, unless I do my own research and come to my own conclusions. So in that regard I find it rather inflammatory that you would imply I am closing my eyes and displaying the level of cognitive dissonance that you find "remarkable".

That's good. What I said, I said actually hoping that it did not apply to you. Trump is definitely leading a personality cult (watch interviews) and many of these people are completely conned into believing everything he says. He thinks he's the chosen one and they do too. So I'm actually pleased to hear you are not quite in that crowd. Usually that crowd is difficult to penetrate with facts because they consider Trump's word fact and actual facts to be fake news. It is incredibly irritating to me. Again, I'm extremely pleased you are not among that group.

VixensVengeance wrote: As for the "send her back" chant, yea Trump did not participate in that and has disavowed it. As for the "send her to jail" chant, well I will personally take up that call! Both the Clinton's should be in Jail for the rest of their lives.

You saw the tape right? He clearly paused and didn't start talking again until the chant started dying down on its own. However, when asked about it he lied and said he started speaking faster in order to silence it. I'm talking about his lies, not saying he joined the chant. He's not the smartest guy but he's not a complete moron when it comes to things he know he shouldn't say when he's already suspected of being racist. (although he did start the whole "they should go back" thing in the first places so..... yeah)

VixensVengeance wrote: As for policies I agree with, well that's opening a can of worms. How about instead of me making a list, why don't you pick out a few of your pet ones you find issue with and we shall discuss those?

Nope. Can't let you off that easy. I'm not going to play pin the tail on the policy. Whatever policies I name you can just be like "I don't agree with that one but I agree with others". And then I'm doing all this work digging up policies for you to simply disagree with. So nope. What I want to know is what policies of TRUMP, not policies that are staples of the Republican party, do you agree with? Republicans want immigration reform (so do Democrats) but Trump, for example, created the no tolerance policy that locked kids in cages and lost track of their parents.

VixensVengeance wrote: As for my deep state comment, I said nothing about conspiracy and never meant to imply that. If that was the case I apologize. I meant long standing policies of either party that seem to just be assumed and not discussed by the party members. Things like right to life for republicans and right to the body for democrats. I am a right to body person but I am also a right to strong military so I fall in the middle of those issues. However I want to see them discussed intelligently, not just chanted by rote call because of a political affiliation. It seems to happen now more than not.

Okay, I can accept that you didn't mean "the deep state conspiracy" but that is generally what a lot of people understand it to mean when that term is used.

In the United States, the term "deep state" is used to describe a conspiracy theory which suggests that collusion and cronyism exist within the US political system - wikipedia

Also, I agree with right to body and strong military. I simply disagree with wasteful military spending, nuclear stock piles, perpetual wars, etc. Troops need to be used strategically and military equipment should reflect that. We don't need to be spending billions on tanks and air planes when people are dying of hunger and when so many Americans are in poverty. A lot of that "strong spending" simply lines the pockets of cronies in the military industrial complex (and no that's not a conspiracy theory) a la Haliburton and special interests help drive us into conflicts just so that we can spend more on defense contracts. Dems want defense, just not at the cost of too many social programs. We need more balance. I don't mind playing policeman to the world to some extent but we need to take care of people right here and injustices right here at home.

VixensVengeance wrote: (BTW, I think Alex Jones is an idiot)

Actually, I want to agree with you on this but I can't. Alex Jones knows exactly what he's doing. He said in court that he was playing a role on the radio and that it wasn't real. But he'll never tell his followers that because that's his livelihood; lying to them. This is also a big part of my aversion to Trump. He probably wouldn't even be rich at all if it wasn't for lying and conning people.

VixensVengeance wrote: As for Melania's Visa, to answer your question I cant tell you if she deserved it or not because I was not the one required to justify its issuance. However I will defer to the immigration department and support their decision to justly issue such a visa. And I dont consider it illegal so as for the so called "brown people" you mention they still openly broke the law so no I do not have to accept that they just utilize the system any way they please. The fact remains that Melania still utilized a legal system and proper caveats to get what she needed to enter. Short of proof she paid off the system I will not condemn her on speculation just because you say so.

1. It is not illegal to seek asylum. But Trump is against that because he thinks it is a way for illegals to cheat the system. This is the same guy who cheated on his taxes so its not about how clever it is if they can get away with it. 2. I'm going to ignore your answer and ask you again... Melania... EINSTEIN visa.... wtf(what the force)? Seriously? Do you believe captain bone spurs over there also should have been permitted to forego the draft without being considered a draft dodger? Was that not illegal? It's funny how (not you but) people in general often care about what's legal depending on who it impacts.

VixensVengeance wrote: In any event, what if she did use some of her advantage to get what she needed to enter the country? Maybe she was great at BJs or she had someone call in a favor? Even so I know there are a lot of criteria for that sort of visa that includes someone as low as network engineering professionals so I would not see it to far fetched that her sort of profession has provisions for that type of visa. You forget I am not a Jedi, I am sith and I find that sort of power to achieve goals by all available means not only acceptable but desirable.

Now this is a good answer. I wish more sith were giving answers like this. But if that's the case then every illegal immigrant who makes it to the US is also just following good sith philosophy, doing what they have to do, legal or not, in order to break their chains. And if you build a wall they'll simply go over or under it because what they're escaping from and what they're running to is something bigger than a wall. Am I wrong?