Ending the Myth of Racism

ZealotX wrote: It's not stereotyping any more than saying most of the black people in my home city live on the west side. Is that stereotyping?

No that is a fact. But saying that only Mexicans pick avocados and if they go away there will be no one to do that job is stereotyping and racist. I'm sure she does not see it that way but she is an old woman and from a different time and era. And those that follow her seem to ignore her racist comments because she is always screaming them and is quite bold. The fact that she is doing something others agree with gives them mind to just ignore the incredibly bad comments she also makes.

ZealotX wrote: Illegal immigrants do not have the same opportunities as immigrants with H1B visas. They simply don't.

I almost quit reading your entire response right here. However out of the respect I have for you I did not. BUT THIS IS ONE OF MY VERY POINTS! Illegal immigrants SHOULD NOT have the same opportunities that legal immigrants have!!! How could this not be more obvious??? They are criminals and they need to be treated like criminals, not given a job!!

ZealotX wrote: The reason Kelly said something about Trump's toilets, and I wish I had thought to say this sooner, wasn't that all minorities clean toilets but rather that Trump has been known for hiring illegals to do these types of jobs and that is what the last lady was saying before the clip ended.

Hiring known criminals is also a crime. If trump did this he was in the wrong. Besides that I dont think that is what she meant. She meant that Mexicans clean toilets and that is all they are good for. Does it anger you that I insist that is what she meant even though I cant really know her intent with any clarity because I'm not in her mind? I hope it does, so now you know how I feel when Elliot spouts off her rhetoric that all whites are racist or that Mexicans pick avocados. Its infuriating and I dont care if she is an educator, made a famous experiment or was born on the moon. She is still spouting racist speech, just in the opposite direction.

ZealotX wrote: No, you're confusing ignorance with experience and statistics. So the white guy... is the ONLY guy I ever see doing the cleaning. If he was an employee you'd think at some point you'd see someone else; especially if he goes on vacation, takes sick days, etc. Because he's by himself and isn't a younger guy, its a safe assumption having knowledge of other white people who have talked to me about doing a similar business. As an owner you're going to be making more than an employee which makes cleaning a more attractive proposition.

Is that really a "safe" assumption? Just like its a "safe" assumption that deporting illegal Mexicans will destroy the avocado crops in California? Is it a safe assumption on my part to conclude that my having knowledge of other black people who have talked to me about not graduating high school that blacks are just "generally" not able to pass courses at that level? Its a stupid assumption, right?

And this idea that small business owners make more money than their employees? Have you ever owned your own business before? Do you know how much is invested and how much is expected to be lost each year of a startup or how many of those businesses fail every year because the owners lost all that money.

ZealotX wrote: I wonder what would happen if you unconvinced yourself that she's a racist (even though she said all whites are basically inherently racist) and watched the whole thing again from part 1. And just listen. Don't react. Just listen to everything she says. I'm not saying you didn't before and I'm not saying your reaction isn't natural. But we heard it two different ways so maybe... maybe even her saying all whites are racist is about when your brain switched modes and felt like attacking her. And unfortunately for her, that's normal. She gets racist hate mail all the time, especially under Trump. Why? Because she's an ANTI-racism activist and causes people to confront these issues in a way in which they feel bad and people don't like that. And she's raw and unapologetic. If she meant what you thought she was implying about immigrants... she would have said it. And to you, even I'M sounding racist (I guess), and that amazes me, so again.. can we double check, intellectually, our perspective? Please? Maybe we're both missing something.

Ok well lets do that. How could I unconvinced myself that she is racist?

OK, the rants have abounded here to be sure. And in actuality most of what I said is just me trying to get some examples across the bow of your ship to get you to maybe pay attention. I dont know this woman and because of that I would be remiss to just make a global claim about her in any fashion. I will say that I believe this interview she did was more damaging to the minority cause than it was helpful. This is because she puts no action behind her words. All she is doing is ranting but providing no solutions and all that ranting is doing is polarizing others and creating extremist sides. People like me, who didn't even know her and had no opinion about her, but had a moderate view of the issues with racism in this country, are now polarized to the right in opposition to her extremely radical positions simply because she called me racist. Does that really do any good?

Not in my opinion. As we discussed in PM earlier, we don't need any more town criers for these ideas. We need those willing to act, willing to stand up, willing to do the work and fight the battles that need fought. I understand she is an educator and a diversity training whatchamacallit. But not once did she try to educate anyone in that interview. Not once did she invite people to her training. Not once did she provide any resources, or videos or suggestions on how to better the issue she sees. She was just a billowy windbag full of hot air like anyone else that complains but does nothing to fix it.

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: Zelotx, I’ve cleaned toilets, I’ve made crazy good money in film, I’ve worked fast food,, I’ve landscaped, done demolition, worked commission, coordinated weddings, funerals, been a sales manager, decorated cakes, arranged flowers, marketed, made logos and magazine covers... and handled guns. I don’t look down on people for their jobs.

That's great. You have a very impressive resume as far as life experiences. But the point was that there are jobs that the vast majority of people simply do not want/would rather not have. And employers have a rough time finding people willing to do those jobs for low wages. They give these jobs to illegal immigrants to use them and take advantage of their illegal status. We all do what we have to do in order to survive but I'm guessing that cleaning toilets was not your favorite job from that list. Yes, there would be citizens that would do these jobs if they had to but they usually don't; not enough to fill all the jobs currently being given to illegal immigrants.

ZealotX wrote:

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: Zelotx, I’ve cleaned toilets, I’ve made crazy good money in film, I’ve worked fast food,, I’ve landscaped, done demolition, worked commission, coordinated weddings, funerals, been a sales manager, decorated cakes, arranged flowers, marketed, made logos and magazine covers... and handled guns. I don’t look down on people for their jobs.

That's great. You have a very impressive resume as far as life experiences. But the point was that there are jobs that the vast majority of people simply do not want/would rather not have. And employers have a rough time finding people willing to do those jobs for low wages. They give these jobs to illegal immigrants to use them and take advantage of their illegal status. We all do what we have to do in order to survive but I'm guessing that cleaning toilets was not your favorite job from that list. Yes, there would be citizens that would do these jobs if they had to but they usually don't; not enough to fill all the jobs currently being given to illegal immigrants.

It wasn’t the worst job either...

VixensVengeance wrote: No that is a fact. But saying that only Mexicans pick avocados and if they go away there will be no one to do that job is stereotyping and racist. I'm sure she does not see it that way but she is an old woman and from a different time and era. And those that follow her seem to ignore her racist comments because she is always screaming them and is quite bold. The fact that she is doing something others agree with gives them mind to just ignore the incredibly bad comments she also makes.

I swear on all that is holy and sacred that she did not say only Mexican pick avocados. She didn't even say there would be no one to do that if they left. Again she was talking about ECONOMICS which means that companies wouldn't necessarily get replacement workers at the same PAY RATE which would increase the cost of avocados. That's what she's talking about; the economics of it. She didn't say there would be no more avocados at all lol. That would be ridiculous. It's the cost that concerns us just like it was the economics behind slavery that led to the civil war; not the idea that if blacks didn't pick cotton no one else would. It's about the MONEY!

ZealotX wrote: Illegal immigrants do not have the same opportunities as immigrants with H1B visas. They simply don't.

VixensVengeance wrote: I almost quit reading your entire response right here. However out of the respect I have for you I did not. BUT THIS IS ONE OF MY VERY POINTS! Illegal immigrants SHOULD NOT have the same opportunities that legal immigrants have!!! How could this not be more obvious??? They are criminals and they need to be treated like criminals, not given a job!!

See... You're saying that like we're disagreeing on this point. I never said illegal immigrants should have the same rights. But they're not being given "Regular jobs". They're being exploited. Because they're illegal they're being paid way less than the legal minimum wage. These wages are far below what citizens or legal residents would typically work for; hence... "jobs no one else wants to do". Saying that isn't the same as saying "no one else will pick avocados" but rather "no one else wants to pick avocados at $5/hr." It might even be lower than that. I don't know. I think you get the point though. The economic impact is similar to what Walmart is doing with cheap foreign labor. We all benefit from it in reduced costs. If you increase the cost of produce that has huge implications. The US already subsidizes farmers because it understands the economic ramifications. These employers are certainly at fault but that there is an economic benefit is undeniable. Trump shouldn't even deny it because he's hired a lot of them himself. They also pay taxes. So its a bit more complicated than them simply being criminals to me.

ZealotX wrote: The reason Kelly said something about Trump's toilets, and I wish I had thought to say this sooner, wasn't that all minorities clean toilets but rather that Trump has been known for hiring illegals to do these types of jobs and that is what the last lady was saying before the clip ended.

VixensVengeance wrote: Hiring known criminals is also a crime. If trump did this he was in the wrong. Besides that I dont think that is what she meant. She meant that Mexicans clean toilets and that is all they are good for. Does it anger you that I insist that is what she meant even though I cant really know her intent with any clarity because I'm not in her mind? I hope it does, so now you know how I feel when Elliot spouts off her rhetoric that all whites are racist or that Mexicans pick avocados. Its infuriating and I dont care if she is an educator, made a famous experiment or was born on the moon. She is still spouting racist speech, just in the opposite direction.

It's not if Trump did this. We know he did. And that IS what she meant because we already know he does this because there have been reports in the media about it. All of this guys's business practices are now pretty much known. So yes, he talks one way to his base and he's never going to talk too much about where his own products are made, how many jobs he's shipped over seas or how many illegals he hires. This is a guy that basically admitted to paying as little taxes as possible. Reports show he's cheated on his taxes too. This is a man who is going to save money whether its legal or not and that started with his father, Fred. People on the left know all about this man and his business practices. And so it may sound like inside jokes but when she said that I instantly knew what she was talking about because we're both reacting to the same information. So that is 100% why she said that and what she was talking about; because Donald Trump hires illegals to staff his properties.

Now that I have a good idea what your thought process was, I can understand how you thought that's what they both meant. But I'm telling you, in all sincerity, that because I am I guess you'd call a liberal progressive or whatever, I understand more of what they're saying because we speak the same liberal dialect if that's what you want to call it. There are things Trump says and does that we're reacting to that his supporters are not and usually ignore. So when you hear our reactions it may not sound right or you may not understand what we're saying or why. But if you ask me I will always explain it for you as best I can. Because at the end of the day its all about understanding. We can disagree. But we should always try to understand each other.

VixensVengeance wrote: Is that really a "safe" assumption? Just like its a "safe" assumption that deporting illegal Mexicans will destroy the avocado crops in California? Is it a safe assumption on my part to conclude that my having knowledge of other black people who have talked to me about not graduating high school that blacks are just "generally" not able to pass courses at that level? Its a stupid assumption, right?

lol, again... that's not what she meant. It's not that no one would pick avocados. No one would work at the same PAY. That's the difference and distinction.

VixensVengeance wrote: And this idea that small business owners make more money than their employees? Have you ever owned your own business before? Do you know how much is invested and how much is expected to be lost each year of a startup or how many of those businesses fail every year because the owners lost all that money.

Yes, I have. It's risky. But the reason people take that risk is because the pay off is typically more than being an employee of the same business. If employers didn't make a margin over what their employees earn well there would be no reason to hire anyone because you would make no profit. In order to make a profit a company has to earn more than its employees. Right? Now if you're a business owner, you have overhead an assets and credit. You have to market and advertise and all that. But businesses are able to pay for all these things because they don't charge minimum wage for cleaning. They may pay an employee that, but that's not how much they're charging a business or homeowner to do the work.

VixensVengeance wrote: Ok well lets do that. How could I unconvinced myself that she is racist?

OK, the rants have abounded here to be sure. And in actuality most of what I said is just me trying to get some examples across the bow of your ship to get you to maybe pay attention. I dont know this woman and because of that I would be remiss to just make a global claim about her in any fashion. I will say that I believe this interview she did was more damaging to the minority cause than it was helpful. This is because she puts no action behind her words. All she is doing is ranting but providing no solutions and all that ranting is doing is polarizing others and creating extremist sides. People like me, who didn't even know her and had no opinion about her, but had a moderate view of the issues with racism in this country, are now polarized to the right in opposition to her extremely radical positions simply because she called me racist. Does that really do any good?

Jane's work is out there. There are videos. She has a website. The interview was not for that purpose. She was answering the interviewers questions. The interviewer was already familiar with her work. So was I. I'm not new to Jane Elliott. I know her through her work and this is not the first videos I've seen her in. She does more doing than talking. But everyone's not a smooth talking politician. Like I said before, she's raw. She tells it like it is. She's done more to combat racism than I'll do in 10 lifetimes, I'm sure. She's influenced hearts and minds by showing them how it feels to be the "other". That's what her Blue eyes brown eyes exercise was about. She tackled in a way that very few people ever have and identified deeper issues, psychology, that underpins the whole notion of race and racism. Research her. That's how you will "unconvince" yourself that she's a racist. But you have to understand where she's coming from and not take her in sound bytes.

Get know Jane

https://youtu.be/fF9s0as_d_4

In our home we use the word “blind hate.” Truthfully - racism - mine - personally - WAS taught to me. It no longer lives in the life of me or my family. Blind hate sucks.Blind hate hurts. Racism is a hard cup to serve for the masses and an even harder pill to swallow for ourselves. My sister ( wife’s sister) generation ( is not even picking up the words we once used. I never will and will never teach em to any one. To combat hate ... you gotta ... have a game plan. It’s cool and fun to notice it but ... what then ? What do you do when you notice it? What’s your game plan ?

is that really you CM3

ZealotX, I would be willing to pay more for avocados if it meant we were actually enforcing our immigration laws and giving only legal residents those jobs to pick avocados even at higher wages. Is picking avocados or farming not a “regular job”? If it’s not a regular job then what kind of job is it? I didn’t know we had categories I guess…

However, even if its not a regular job, if you’re a young black man in the Ghetto and, as you have suggested in the past, can’t get a “regular job” then maybe if we got rid of the illegal immigrants the young black man could get one of these “special jobs?” picking avocados at a higher wage and then they would not have to sell drugs, right? I would support and even encourage such an endeavor to help lift those in poverty out of their plight. Hell of a lot better than increasing my taxes to be put to wellfare. Someday they might be able to own their own avocado ranch this way and as for the illegal immigrant’s status, it really is as simple as them being criminals and taking jobs from legal Americans whether they are regular or special jobs.

So would you support such an endeavor as I describe above?

As for all the Trump rhetoric I truly don’t see the point. Do you actually think he personally hired the guy that cleans his toilet? Also don’t you also try to pay as little in taxes as possible? I know I do! So how is he wrong for doing that when you or I are not?

It’s also not necessarily a fact that business owners have to make more than their employees in order to be in business. Have you ever watched Gordan Ramses Kitchen Nightmares? LOL just one example but those owners are typically in a staggering amount of debt! I mean up to a million dollars and still paying their employees out of borrowed money for years on end. The percentage of businesses that actually make a fair profit is few and far between. And yes you are right the risk is great and the work incredibly hard for an owner. Much harder than an employees and the reward for that is meager to the extreme most times for the owner as well.

When it comes to people, first impressions are everything and Jane made a very bad first impression on me through that interview. After watching that interview I don’t care to research her any further. I think I have a pretty good idea of who she is and what she is about. That is my point. Your choice of videos to further your cause is very poor. However, I will watch your latest posted video in an effort to better understand her positions. I shall follow up later as it seems to be an hour long and I don’t have time right now.

VixensVengeance wrote: ZealotX, I would be willing to pay more for avocados if it meant we were actually enforcing our immigration laws and giving only legal residents those jobs to pick avocados even at higher wages. Is picking avocados or farming not a “regular job”? If it’s not a regular job then what kind of job is it? I didn’t know we had categories I guess…

However, even if its not a regular job, if you’re a young black man in the Ghetto and, as you have suggested in the past, can’t get a “regular job” then maybe if we got rid of the illegal immigrants the young black man could get one of these “special jobs?” picking avocados at a higher wage and then they would not have to sell drugs, right? I would support and even encourage such an endeavor to help lift those in poverty out of their plight. Hell of a lot better than increasing my taxes to be put to wellfare. Someday they might be able to own their own avocado ranch this way and as for the illegal immigrant’s status, it really is as simple as them being criminals and taking jobs from legal Americans whether they are regular or special jobs.

So would you support such an endeavor as I describe above?

As for all the Trump rhetoric I truly don’t see the point. Do you actually think he personally hired the guy that cleans his toilet? Also don’t you also try to pay as little in taxes as possible? I know I do! So how is he wrong for doing that when you or I are not?

It’s also not necessarily a fact that business owners have to make more than their employees in order to be in business. Have you ever watched Gordan Ramses Kitchen Nightmares? LOL just one example but those owners are typically in a staggering amount of debt! I mean up to a million dollars and still paying their employees out of borrowed money for years on end. The percentage of businesses that actually make a fair profit is few and far between. And yes you are right the risk is great and the work incredibly hard for an owner. Much harder than an employees and the reward for that is meager to the extreme most times for the owner as well.

When it comes to people, first impressions are everything and Jane made a very bad first impression on me through that interview. After watching that interview I don’t care to research her any further. I think I have a pretty good idea of who she is and what she is about. That is my point. Your choice of videos to further your cause is very poor. However, I will watch your latest posted video in an effort to better understand her positions. I shall follow up later as it seems to be an hour long and I don’t have time right now.