Ending the Myth of Racism

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14 Aug 2019 14:23 #341222 by ZealotX
Some may be tired of this subject in general. That's okay. If you don't like it or if it makes you uncomfortable, please understand that I don't have an agenda or any desire to make anyone feel bad. In a way, these discussions from me are a compliment to this community because I feel like this community can handle these discussions and in away that we can heal and grow from. I can't say the same thing about the general masses. But in the scope of spiritual enlightenment and growth, these topics can be part of that journey because spirituality has a lot to do with how you see yourself, and all things being relative, how you see others.

This is also a act of love because I share things with this community because I love you guys and so I wanted to share this video interview with Jane Elliott because I love her, her attitude, and her work. I have so much respect for her and what she says. I wanted to give everyone the opportunity of hearing some of her insights and I'm more than happy to discuss them if you'd like, publicly or privately, or if you want to just take it as rhetorical that's fine too. We're all here to grow and interact with each other on our spiritual journey.

note: Myth of Racism in this context means the existence of different "races"

Part 1:


Part 2:


Part 3:



And if you have another video like this one, feel free to share it in this thread and help to challenge our perceptions and perspectives in a positive way. I'd love to see every issue or controversial subject have a thread kinda like a video diary, raising consciousness about that issue along with healthy discussion.

And as always, if you have any questions, feel free to ask. I promise, if anyone attempts to jump down your throat for asking an honest question I will jump down theirs. I will defend even the most racist person on the planet if they are asking a sincere and honest question. So don't be afraid.
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14 Aug 2019 16:20 #341227 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

ZealotX wrote:
Part 3:


Zealotx, Im actually disappointed in this post, especially in the light of our recent discussion. I understand your position but this woman is the opposite of what you should be advocating to be a spokesperson for your cause. She is a reverse racist and a sexist in the extreme. I wont go into it any further than that except to say that she also makes many minority racist remarks in her comments that Im surprised you did not find offensive. Case in point, I would like you to listen to her comments in the video clip I quoted above from time stamp 6:30 to 7 minutes and then compare what she says to the below video clip.


Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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14 Aug 2019 17:09 #341228 by Phoenix Vidensia
Come now, VV, white people are evil. Heterosexual white males are the devil, especially if they lean right. (Humor)

What did we do now? Oh, right... we enslaved black people or something like that. Funny, since they were enslaving and selling their own people as well. Ah... money... the need of it... desperation. How such things bring people to do such harm to each other.

Still, funny thing about slavery... it’s always a choice. Somewhere, there is a choice, even under the most effective control, it’s still a choice.

Pardon the rambling...

My point may have gotten lost in my attempt at sarcasm and dark humor. Still, I think this whole race mess is ridiculous. People are going to dislike people for various reasons, race is just one of those reasons.

... Meh ...

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14 Aug 2019 17:27 - 14 Aug 2019 17:31 #341229 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Ending the Myth of Racism

VixensVengeance wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
Part 3:


Zealotx, Im actually disappointed in this post, especially in the light of our recent discussion. I understand your position but this woman is the opposite of what you should be advocating to be a spokesperson for your cause. She is a reverse racist and a sexist in the extreme. I wont go into it any further than that except to say that she also makes many minority racist remarks in her comments that Im surprised you did not find offensive. Case in point, I would like you to listen to her comments in the video clip I quoted above from time stamp 6:30 to 7 minutes and then compare what she says to the below video clip.


I'm sorry to disappoint you since I do hold you in high esteem. However, the point that both women made is correct and it is an argument a lot of people have made on both sides of the aisle. Kelly Osbourne cited one specific job and some people didn't like it because they consider that job demeaning... beneath them.

I have a different perspective on that. You see... I know people who do work that would be considered in the same way. My best friend worked for many years as a school janitor. That's a specific job that a lot of people wouldn't choose to do. But guess what? I never looked down on him for doing it. Now he works for the school system in landscaping. Would I want to do those jobs? No. Would he choose to work those jobs (and work 2 jobs to maintain his financial situation) if he had better options? Of course he probably wouldn't.

People tend to do those jobs because they don't have better options. There's a white guy who cleans the building at my job everyday. Difference is he probably owns the company and gets paid more than the guy cleaning toilets for Trump. I know an exotic dancer who does the same thing. Many jobs in this country are performed by people who don't necessarily want to do them... but they have to. And doing what they have to, especially as opposed to criminal enterprise, is not demeaning. It's respectable. Saying that someone cleans toilets... or takes their clothes off on stage... you may not choose to do it, but all of these jobs deserve a level of respect. So it depends on the context. Jane Elliot didn't say, oh they're doing menial labor and we need them to keep doing that because that's all they're good for. No, she stated a fact. They are doing menial labor. Companies are hiring to do that menial labor. And if they weren't doing that menial labor then who would? But guess what? The next generation, going to our schools, are probably not cleaning toilets. And either they or their children will probably be doctors and lawyers and other jobs we all wish we had.

What if everyone thought trash collection was beneath them? Fortunately.... yes... "fortunately" for those of us who need our trash picked up, not everyone feels that way about their job. Or even if they do, they do it anyway. It's in our best interest that their circumstances maybe didn't provide them with every option. Because we need people to pick up our trash. At least for now. But I'm not demeaning them at all. I respect them for doing a job that few people, if any, actually want to do. So don't mistake what Jane was saying just because it sounds bad. It's the truth. And it's not only true here. The majority of Chinese workers are below the poverty line. Where do you think Walmart gets its low prices from? But if we never stop to think about those people and what they're doing for so little... how will things ever change? I think you're being too hard on both these women. Neither one were trying to insult anyone.
Last edit: 14 Aug 2019 17:31 by ZealotX.

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14 Aug 2019 17:32 #341230 by rugadd
Replied by rugadd on topic Ending the Myth of Racism
On what level do you mentally interact with people? Some view our entire species as a virus. Any cruelty, any injustice is valid on a human level if you ask the right person. It almost seems pointless.

I imagine the true ideal of discussions like this are asking us to consider what type of person we are, ourselves. Changing someone else just isn't in the cards, not really.

Before anyone says I'm just dismissing everything as pointless, i assure you I am not. We are human, after all, and the greatest achievement we can attain in life is deciding instead of allowing that decision to be made for us.

rugadd
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14 Aug 2019 17:45 #341232 by Phoenix Vidensia
Zelotx, I’ve cleaned toilets, I’ve made crazy good money in film, I’ve worked fast food,, I’ve landscaped, done demolition, worked commission, coordinated weddings, funerals, been a sales manager, decorated cakes, arranged flowers, marketed, made logos and magazine covers... and handled guns. I don’t look down on people for their jobs.

... Meh ...
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14 Aug 2019 18:03 #341233 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Ending the Myth of Racism

Phoenix Vidensia wrote: Come now, VV, white people are evil. Heterosexual white males are the devil, especially if they lean right. (Humor)

What did we do now? Oh, right... we enslaved black people or something like that. Funny, since they were enslaving and selling their own people as well. Ah... money... the need of it... desperation. How such things bring people to do such harm to each other.

Still, funny thing about slavery... it’s always a choice. Somewhere, there is a choice, even under the most effective control, it’s still a choice.

Pardon the rambling...

My point may have gotten lost in my attempt at sarcasm and dark humor. Still, I think this whole race mess is ridiculous. People are going to dislike people for various reasons, race is just one of those reasons.


yeah... I'm trying to appreciate your "dark humor" about slavery. For some reason it fails to land. Perhaps a joke about the holocaust maybe?

I think sometimes, some people try to use humor as a way to deal with their discomfort on a certain topic. The thing though is, you may unintentionally be rubbing salt in people's wounds.

Like Jane said... whites invented the idea about race. So, do you not see the irony in saying that black people enslaved and sold each other. Do you not see it? I can see how it could be confusing so let me say it another way.

There was no such thing as "black people" as a racial group. So "they" were not doing anything to anyone, much less themselves. People divided themselves into nations and tribes, not colors. So when you take color out of that equation what you see is one nation defeating another or one tribe defeating another. And every tribe wasn't hostile or war like. Many tribes were pacifist. And what you call slavery would be better translated as indentured service.

Allow me to explain further.

When you have a king, the king owns the land, right? The king grants land and titles to knights and noblemen, right? Those people then extract taxes from people living on that land. There was even a time, yes, a time when black Muslims conquered Europe which brought along with it several advancements in math, medicine, and waste/water management.

Now as it was in the bible, these things were common practice in many parts of the world. People who were in debt... people who didn't own land (and therefore no animals) often needed to work for other people... on their land. The man who gave birth to the 12 tribes of Israel in the bible was such a worker. And when the conquered (according to the bible) people those people were either forced to pay tribute or if they fought they took their land and even their women as spoils. And yes, many women, back in those days as well, if they didn't have families to financially support them sometimes turned to prostitution. See the need to survive has always existed but the means aren't always the same.

The problem is assuming that everything that is now called "slavery" and "human trafficking" was the same. Assuming that all slaves were either sold or stolen, that all slaves were unpaid or locked up in chains, that all slaves were whipped and beaten, etc. is simply ridiculous and not an accurate reflection of history. No, chattel slavery in America was special because it was based on race. And because it was based on race it was especially cruel. It wasn't the same as people who looked like each other, selling their workers or servants. In America, slave owners believed their slaves were less than human... 3/5ths to be exact. And so they treated them like animals, raped their slave women, abused and separated families, etc. "slavery" is an English word, not an African word. So saying that "slavery" is the same thing... no, sorry. I cannot agree nor do I think you would agree if given all the facts.

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14 Aug 2019 18:13 - 14 Aug 2019 18:15 #341234 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

ZealotX wrote: I'm sorry to disappoint you since I do hold you in high esteem. However, the point that both women made is correct and it is an argument a lot of people have made on both sides of the aisle. Kelly Osbourne cited one specific job and some people didn't like it because they consider that job demeaning... beneath them.


I think you are missing the point of my post. I was not implying that the job being performed is menial. I respect anyone willing to work hard in any job no matter if its cleaning toilets or the CEO of McDonalds. My point was that in both these cases those jobs were characterized as being primarily performed by minorities, in this case Mexican minorities. How do you ever expect people to stop viewing a "race" of people in a discriminating way if you refuse to even stop stereotyping them into specific roles? Both the women in the video were guilty of this stereotyping. And you notice that in the first case, no one called her out on it, but in the second case she was called out on that stereotyping. Where is the consistency in that?




ZealotX wrote: People tend to do those jobs because they don't have better options. There's a white guy who cleans the building at my job everyday. Difference is he probably owns the company and gets paid more than the guy cleaning toilets for Trump.


Now you are doing it! You claim the black person cant get a better job and so he is forced to be a janitor but the white guy doing the exact same job must own the company just because hes white??!! How can you not see the bias here?





ZealotX wrote: Jane Elliot didn't say, oh they're doing menial labor and we need them to keep doing that because that's all they're good for.


Actually, that is exactly what she implied. She said the economy would be negatively affected if we didn't have Mexican's in this country (minority) picking her avocados! How is that not racist? What would happen if all the Mexicans came here and became doctors. Who would pick her avocados then?





ZealotX wrote: And if they weren't doing that menial labor then who would?


And then comes your reply, which backs up her statements. Another racially motivated statement. Maybe young white females just having gone through puberty would do it. Oh that's not a stereotypical comment at all, right?





ZealotX wrote: I think you're being too hard on both these women. Neither one were trying to insult anyone.


And yet they so successfully succeeded in insulting others! Accidental or not what is the difference. If I accidentally used a pejorative to describe your person would you be less offended just because it was an accident? Now don't get me wrong, I am not a language cop, I think people should speak their minds and have whatever opinions they deem worthy no matter whether they are totally off their rocker or not. The thing that pisses me off is to take some radically extreme leftist like this intolerant character you posted and try to use her as a voice of reason. Its just not working my friend.

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
Last edit: 14 Aug 2019 18:15 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar.
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14 Aug 2019 18:25 #341235 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Ending the Myth of Racism

rugadd wrote: On what level do you mentally interact with people? Some view our entire species as a virus. Any cruelty, any injustice is valid on a human level if you ask the right person. It almost seems pointless.

I imagine the true ideal of discussions like this are asking us to consider what type of person we are, ourselves. Changing someone else just isn't in the cards, not really.

Before anyone says I'm just dismissing everything as pointless, i assure you I am not. We are human, after all, and the greatest achievement we can attain in life is deciding instead of allowing that decision to be made for us.


I interact with people on whatever levels in which communication is open and honest. You can't change anyone. However, people tend to adapt to their environment. Therefore, you don't have to change anyone. Instead, you make it a choice. Did I make you click the link for this thread? Or did I simply put it in your environment? You clicked the link. I didn't force you. If you watch the videos, well I didn't force you to do that either.

So the proposition is not one of force or trying to change anyone. It's simply adding to the sunlight and the rain and putting nutrients into the ground. The choice is yours.

One of the things that has been discussed is the views of children from majority white schools vs majority black vs mixed. The larger problem, that I see, is isolation. The more any organism is forced to grow in its own bubble, the less exposure it has to things outside its environment, the greater the fear, the apprehension, etc. Look at human attitudes towards the possibility of alien life? What would an alien think if it watched our movies? What would it think if it watched Independence Day?

Some of us fantasize about humanity working together against an alien threat and our image of alien life usually looks nothing like us and is "ugly" to some degree. Because of our fears of their hostility and nature we are willing to act on that fear instead of looking at our own hypocrisy as there are those of us who would want to dissect them as much as there could potentially be those of them who'd like to do the same to us and are just as afraid of us as we are of them. I'm making a point, not saying alien life exists. The point is how would we treat it if it was? Would that depend on their technology and what we could gain?

A lot of people see "others" the same way they see aliens and its unfortunate. If aliens lived among us like that one show a long time ago where an alien was a police officer, we would segregate and at the same time more densely populated communities would have more contact, less fear, and less negative feelings. Some look at black people and want to start a race war, why? Because.... they're afraid of a race war? Doesn't seem to make sense, and yet... this is what we're dealing with.

The subject of race is like a swimming pool with cold water. Some people jump in. Others stick a toe in. Many say, "that water's too cold so I'm just going to stay out" and many look at others in the pool and think about how crazy they are to be in that cold water, rather than that maybe they're not cold after awhile... that they warm up and by actually participating (or swimming) they're providing their own heat which alleviates their discomfort.

But like I said, getting into the pool is always a choice

...unless its not inside your environment.
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14 Aug 2019 19:47 - 14 Aug 2019 20:00 #341238 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Ending the Myth of Racism

VixensVengeance wrote: I think you are missing the point of my post. I was not implying that the job being performed is menial. I respect anyone willing to work hard in any job no matter if its cleaning toilets or the CEO of McDonalds. My point was that in both these cases those jobs were characterized as being primarily performed by minorities, in this case Mexican minorities. How do you ever expect people to stop viewing a "race" of people in a discriminating way if you refuse to even stop stereotyping them into specific roles? Both the women in the video were guilty of this stereotyping. And you notice that in the first case, no one called her out on it, but in the second case she was called out on that stereotyping. Where is the consistency in that?


It's not stereotyping any more than saying most of the black people in my home city live on the west side. Is that stereotyping? Does mean everyone on the west side is African American? Not at all. You're viewing these statements in absolute terms. No one said that only minorities do those jobs. What we're saying is that minorities have less opportunities and are therefore MORE LIKELY to need to do these jobs as a legitimate source of income. You're not going to fix racism/white supremacy by denying facts. Illegal immigrants do not have the same opportunities as immigrants with H1B visas. They simply don't. My father immigrated to the US from Jamaica. And for a time he worked as a Janitor. But he also went to school, completed a degree, and became a computer programmer.

As his son, my opportunities were better and he made sure that our family owned a computer at a time with many families didn't have one. And now I'm a programmer. The reason Kelly said something about Trump's toilets, and I wish I had thought to say this sooner, wasn't that all minorities clean toilets but rather that Trump has been known for hiring illegals to do these types of jobs and that is what the last lady was saying before the clip ended. Talking about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, not Hispanic people, Mexicans, etc. Illegal immigrants getting hired to work as fortune 500 CEOs simply isn't a thing that exists. There is, in reality, a ladder and they start out at the bottom. I'll refer back to this popular metaphor in a second.

VixensVengeance wrote: Now you are doing it! You claim the black person cant get a better job and so he is forced to be a janitor but the white guy doing the exact same job must own the company just because hes white??!! How can you not see the bias here?


No, you're confusing ignorance with experience and statistics. So the white guy... is the ONLY guy I ever see doing the cleaning. If he was an employee you'd think at some point you'd see someone else; especially if he goes on vacation, takes sick days, etc. Because he's by himself and isn't a younger guy, its a safe assumption having knowledge of other white people who have talked to me about doing a similar business. As an owner you're going to be making more than an employee which makes cleaning a more attractive proposition. Now on the other hand, my best friend is an employee. When I worked at my last job, that's when I saw other black people; at 5:00 when the cleaning staff came (not saying no one else in the company was black). They were employees. The fact is that whites have a TENDENCY to have better/more opportunities (thanks in part to white supremacy) than minorities which is reflected in jobs which is reflected in the wealth gap; creating the experiences and statistics I'm reasoning from.

And let me say this... a job is not a person and doesn't have feelings. You can't stereotype a job (at least the way you mean it). You stereotype people. If I said black people are only employees, that could MAYBE be an attempt at stereotyping. If I said black people tend to be employees, that's not stereotyping. Something that is merely "typical" isn't automatically "stereotypical". A stereotype is "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing." I have to see a lack of black business owners to work to change the conditions to enable more black people to become business owners. So again... we have to see the problem before we can solve it.

However, the jobs that most available to people with illegal status are TYPICALLY the jobs that no one else wants to do. And while you can imagine some white girl who has dreamed of working in a chicken factory since she was 10, when a farm actually decided to hire Americans what they found was that they couldn't find enough. So there's just not a lot of white people calling about working in agriculture. Many of the ones who do either own the farm or their family does.

And please trust that this distinction I'm making between illegal and Hispanic is important and is the reason why many Hispanics (legal status) actually voted for Trump.

ZealotX wrote: Jane Elliot didn't say, oh they're doing menial labor and we need them to keep doing that because that's all they're good for.

VixensVengeance wrote: Actually, that is exactly what she implied. She said the economy would be negatively affected if we didn't have Mexican's in this country (minority) picking her avocados! How is that not racist? What would happen if all the Mexicans came here and became doctors. Who would pick her avocados then?


Geez...

"Jane Elliott is an American former third-grade schoolteacher, anti-racism activist, and educator. She is known for her "Blue eyes–Brown eyes" exercise. She first conducted her famous exercise for her class on April 5, 1968, the day after Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated."

She was talking about how WE, as a society, and the Trump administration, are treating black and brown people. She was specifically talking about the whole "build the wall situation". Again... her words have context. You have to start at 5:10. And hell no, that's not racist. It would hurt the economy because obviously you can severely underpay them, which people do. If they had to pay a US citizen it would increase the cost of the produce because they'd have to pay a competitive wage to entice citizens to do it. She's not saying this is all perfect but rather that we aren't ready for the consequences if we were to send everyone back. WE, collectively, eat those avocados and benefit from that cheap labor. That's what she's talking about. Just like WE, collectively, shop at Walmart and benefit from that cheap foreign labor. WE get all this benefit but WE (not you or I personally) are scared of them taking our jobs.

And no, the immigrant fresh off the boat, isn't necessarily a candidate to take your job. But their kids? Their kids kids? Yes. That's not my concern nor her concern. She's saying that whites will be in the minority and they should be ready for that. To me that's about as not racist as a white person can get. Again, she was speaking to the effect on the economy.

VixensVengeance wrote: And then comes your reply, which backs up her statements. Another racially motivated statement. Maybe young white females just having gone through puberty would do it. Oh that's not a stereotypical comment at all, right?


You keep using the word "stereotypical" but as someone who has been thoroughly stereotyped, that's not what it means. I gave you the definition before just to point out what is required to make something stereotypical. Them doing those jobs has NOTHING to do with their race, color, or ethnicity, but rather their illegal status. It is completely understandable that they would take whatever job they had to in order to survive. Therefore, what I'm backing up is that no one else really wants these jobs. Illegal immigrants are taking them because they want them. They can't get many other jobs because an employer isn't going to take that risk. For what? Someone who can barely speak English(again... ILLEGAL immigrants, not Hispanics)? What other jobs would YOU recommend? Every job I apply to now comes with background checks, credit checks, etc. The jobs we're talking about don't have those because they don't care. Why? Because they're desperate. Most people don't want those jobs; especially not at what they're paying.

Supply and Demand.


VixensVengeance wrote: And yet they so successfully succeeded in insulting others! Accidental or not what is the difference. If I accidentally used a pejorative to describe your person would you be less offended just because it was an accident? Now don't get me wrong, I am not a language cop, I think people should speak their minds and have whatever opinions they deem worthy no matter whether they are totally off their rocker or not. The thing that pisses me off is to take some radically extreme leftist like this intolerant character you posted and try to use her as a voice of reason. Its just not working my friend.


Yeah... taking offense and someone trying to offend are two different things though. You're assuming that she's not fighting for these people you think she was offending. What evidence do you have that they don't understand EXACTLY what she's saying and that they don't like it or agree?? Because that wouldn't make sense, right? For you to be offended on someone's behalf who isn't offended at all. And you're assuming she's intolerant when in fact she is intolerant because she defined it as something NOT TO BE... She said minorities shouldn't have to be tolerated. Because that just means you don't like them but you "let" them exist. No one should have to be merely "tolerated". Her attitude is different because she put herself through her own exercise and was treated badly because she had blue eyes. So again... context matters. For a lot of people tolerance is the goal. But do you understand what tolerance is? Do you understand that it is a low bar? Her goal isn't tolerance. She called race a MYTH that we keep telling ourselves. We are one people. That's what she's saying here. So she gets offended by people being treated differently. You can hear it in her voice. ...well... I can at least.

Please try this....

Because I wonder if your mind wasn't searching for some fault... I could be wrong. But I wonder what would happen if you unconvinced yourself that she's a racist (even though she said all whites are basically inherently racist) and watched the whole thing again from part 1. And just listen. Don't react. Just listen to everything she says. I'm not saying you didn't before and I'm not saying your reaction isn't natural. But we heard it two different ways so maybe... maybe even her saying all whites are racist is about when your brain switched modes and felt like attacking her. And unfortunately for her, that's normal. She gets racist hate mail all the time, especially under Trump. Why? Because she's an ANTI-racism activist and causes people to confront these issues in a way in which they feel bad and people don't like that. And she's raw and unapologetic. If she meant what you thought she was implying about immigrants... she would have said it. And to you, even I'M sounding racist (I guess), and that amazes me, so again.. can we double check, intellectually, our perspective? Please? Maybe we're both missing something.
Last edit: 14 Aug 2019 20:00 by ZealotX.
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