Betsy Ross Flag vs Colin Kaepernick (controversial)

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02 Jul 2019 14:06 #340204 by ZealotX
Nike pulls a new 4th of July sneaker featuring the Betsy Ross flag.

twitter.com/search?q=%22Colin%20Kaeperni...A1145909205410304001

Controversy ensues



Was this the right move on the part of Nike?


There seems to be 2 sides:

1. America's history "is what it is", you can't change it, and there's no problem if people have pride in it
2. Aspects of America's history are very offensive to disaffected groups who were either slaves or natives

Which side are you? Does it matter?

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02 Jul 2019 14:45 - 02 Jul 2019 14:53 #340207 by Vaziel_Sorel
I think that overall the choice to remove the Betsy Ross Flag from the shoe was Nike's choice. They are a company and their sole purpose is to make money. If they felt that there might have been any negative backlash over someone's interpretation, they would pull the product. If Nike really cared for the american people, they would stop using overseas labor (which would cause some controversy) and hired more American workers, but this would drive up the cost of their average quality shoes, while decreasing their sales.

Americans need to stop living in the past and look forward. Our past is full of terrible and outrageous events and its best for us to take these events into account and make sure it never happens again.

We can't change the past, but we can shape the future.

It looks like I am on side 1.

Edit: This Betsy Ross Flag vs Colin Kaepernick controversy will cause the extreme sided people to either fly the old flag in protest and others to fly some disgraced version to protest the protesters...
Last edit: 02 Jul 2019 14:53 by Vaziel_Sorel.

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02 Jul 2019 15:40 #340210 by ZealotX
I'm #2

Although a lot of people seem to take the position that opposition to certain symbols and monuments means that people who are offended want to rewrite history. This isn't true. We know what happened all too well. We're haunted by it. We still feel the effects of it. And there is still a legacy that exists, of hatred and animosity that fuels racist attitudes, division, segregation, gentrification, racial bias and excessive force in policing, discrimination in jobs and housing and much more. So as much as certain things are in the past, that past also informs people in the present. It may not inform you or your family and maybe not your friends. Maybe you (not speaking of any specific person but rather in general who fits this stated description) grew up in an area that either had very few black people and no one really talked about them or an area where minorities were common place and accepted. There isn't just one America defined by just your (or my) experience.

When creating a present day product or statue you're bringing that thing or person, into the present. A "memorial" is just that. It helps to keep something in our memory which includes the people who don't like that thing. One certainly wouldn't build a statue of Hitler in the middle of a Jewish community. But we all perfectly understand that. However, when it comes to American figures a lot of us seem to want to give them a pass. Perhaps outside of Hitler's hatred of the Jews he was a great guy who was a good leader and family man. But so what? I don't have to overlook the elephant in the room-his hatred of the Jews which drove him to seek to exterminate them. There were and are people who feel the same way about black people just like they did about native Americans.

If we don't want to sing along with....

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

we risk sounding unpatriotic just because we can actually hear the lyrics. But again, you'd never ask or judge the patriotism of a Jewish person based on them not singing a song about burning people in gas chambers. You would instead be like "why is there a song about burning people in gas chambers and why is it our national anthem?"

If South Africa's anthem talked about freedom but explicitly talked about whites using the term "white devil" that happened to be used throughout world native populations being confronted by aggressive European explorers that would be criticized by the world even if, in that case, there were supporters of the song that felt like it was an accurate telling of their history. Why? Because it would be racist and would affect white South Africans who still have a right to live there without being treated as second class citizens based on history. And in Africa reverse racism CAN exist because the power structure has significantly changed.

www.gov.za/about-government/leaders

"Every body wants a new Confederate flag," Bagby wrote. "The present one is universally hated. It resembles the Yankee flag and that is enough to make it unutterably detestable."

So we wouldn't overlook the whole "white devil" content and say "but the song talks about freedom though". So for me it kind of boils down to, yes there are good and bad parts of everyone's history. Everyone. Every race and culture has done things they really shouldn't be proud of if they are. How do you detangle that history? Or how much do you seem to tout every bit of it as being all the same?

One thing that's not spoken about very much by the people attacking Nike is how this flag is being used presently. It is a historical flag much like the Confederate Battle Flag

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confe...te_States_of_America

The flag is also known as the Stainless Banner, and the matter of the person behind its design remains a point of contention. On April 23, 1863, the Savannah Morning News editor William Tappan Thompson, with assistance from William Ross Postell, a Confederate blockade runner, published an editorial championing a design featuring the battle flag on a white background he referred to later as "The White Man's Flag."[6] In explaining the white background, Thompson wrote, "As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause."

Rogers lobbied successfully to have this alteration introduced in the Confederate Senate. He defended his redesign as having "as little as possible of the Yankee blue", and described it as symbolizing the primary origins of the people of the Confederacy, with the saltire of the Scottish flag and the red bar from the flag of France.[13]


The full debate over flags shows how important they were as symbols. People wanted to fight for a flag that represented them and their interests. And back then a lot of people weren't shy about their racism. And with that same attitude they wanted memorials and monuments for their heroes which forced people who fought against and defeated those "heroes" to still live with their memorialized statues and symbols. The South lost. It lost. That's also history. But a lot of people would seem to like to revise THAT history, selectively holding onto these flags (but not any flags representing some earlier time period under English rule) and seemingly giving them new life and meaning.

www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/07/02...m_term=.356cc225f203

That version of the flag has reportedly been adopted by some white nationalists and other groups that object to America’s growing racial diversity.


It definitely wouldn't be smart for a major corporation (especially one that makes much of its profits from African Americans) to create a product with a symbol used by white nationalist and other groups that are against America's racial diversity.

The fact that this symbol has been appropriated... where was the outrage over the appropriation? They didn't care. But now that Nike is "NOT" doing something for the sake of political correctness (which isn't automatically a bad thing) now people want to speak out, not against the white nationalist groups using the symbol, but against Nike for NOT using it. And so a decision that shouldn't have been controversial... became controversial.
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02 Jul 2019 18:29 #340216 by Vaziel_Sorel

ZealotX wrote: Nike pulls a new 4th of July sneaker featuring the Betsy Ross flag.

There seems to be 2 sides:

1. America's history "is what it is", you can't change it, and there's no problem if people have pride in it
2. Aspects of America's history are very offensive to disaffected groups who were either slaves or natives

Which side are you? Does it matter?


Did I misinterpret this?
I think I am a mix of both then.

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02 Jul 2019 18:41 #340217 by ZealotX

Vaziel_Sorel wrote:
Did I misinterpret this?
I think I am a mix of both then.


When I read what you said it sounded like #2. Keep in mind, #2 isn't saying history didn't happen. It's okay to care that it happened and if people want to have personal pride in whatever part of history that's fine. I don't agree with all of it but I don't have to. I don't have to agree with them that slavery was awesome because it wasn't for me. I mean... obviously. So if they want to make their own shoes with confederate flags and swastikas they should be able to. It's a free country.

But corporate and state sponsored? If a corporation like Papa John's wants to promote racism I just wont buy their pizza. So if the CEO was racist and the board was able to control his twitter account I'd be fine. I'd still buy their pizza. It's actually good. But I have a right to be offended as much as he has the right to say ignorant stuff that offends me. I don't have to be mad or upset to be offended. I can be calmly offended and just not financially support his brand.

What you said was true. We can't change the past. And we shouldn't live in it. But we have to learn from the past so that the future can be better and I think because not everyone sees mistakes of the past as actual mistakes they simply refuse to learn and history ends up repeating itself for far too many minorities.

When a group is together (like a cult or like the KKK) they simply reinforce each other's beliefs. It's not about truth or facts, but rather feelings. And I wish I knew how to insert facts and morality into that equation but I don't know how that is possible when we try so hard not to have those conversations at all because they're uncomfortable and we (as a society) don't like confrontation because we're scared of each other.
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04 Jul 2019 00:03 #340245 by Adder
Reminds me a little of the Eureka Stockade and how the trade union movement here (which is quite strong and interwoven into politics) have long decided to use the flag as a symbol. I feel, just because someone decides to adopt someone elses symbol doesn't mean they suddenly own it. So I'm not quick to just bend over and let folk control the usage and would suggest instead it should perhaps be reclaimed if at all possible!? Such that if the Betty Ross flag is not directly associated with representing slavery or support of it, then I think it's an over-reaction to ban it. If it is, then yea some parts of history don't really need to be waved around so much, even if its on peoples feet.....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_Rebellion

That is all I've got, as I'd never heard of the Betty Ross flag till this thread :D :S

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04 Jul 2019 23:16 #340263 by ren
It's my understanding that it's a genuine historical US flag. I find it staggering that US citizens, who pledge allegiance to their flag, are offended by it.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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05 Jul 2019 22:10 #340278 by Carlos.Martinez3
I am American. I like the Flag. I don’t wear shoes ... “like that.” Not my style but there is a whole culture that drives and thrives from just ... shoes -( both genders- think about it) so don’t expect things like this to be ... small or minute. I got a pair of Vans I buy every year and in different colors ... I just wear em out. I got a pair of boots ... some cool pairs of socks... I know ... but nothing to to the extent that such a thing hits me hard in the closet lol.

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05 Jul 2019 23:04 #340279 by JamesSand


Was this the right move on the part of Nike?



You're talking about Nike.

So...yes. Yes it was.

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06 Jul 2019 16:50 - 06 Jul 2019 16:51 #340287 by VixensVengeance
There is a new US civil war coming. Antifa and the dems on one side and the alt right and repubs on the other. The cold war is already well under way. The problem is that both sides are wrong. No matter which wins the original founding principles of this nation will still be lost.

Solve' et coagula
Last edit: 06 Jul 2019 16:51 by VixensVengeance.

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