True Knowledge

More
21 Jun 2019 19:32 #339939 by Victor
True Knowledge was created by Victor
"I only know that I know nothing" ―Socrates (probably).

At first I did not understood that phrase, but a few days ago, I came into a realization that changed my entire views on this topic, and found myself saying it from my own lips. Being that Knowledge is one of the temple tenets, and it's also involved in The Code, I would like to read about how do you see knowledge as Jedi and also welcome you to discuss what you think of my points in the subject if you feel like it.

I'll try to be concise with what I currently understand on this matter:

-The words knowledge, know and known are way overused in our society.

-I feel there are more proper words like: believe, understand, think, aware, etc...

-I think that the person who says "I only know that I know nothing", is taking a stance in life that looks to accept his/her limitations as an human being, and that the one who belives he knows something, or even everything, is only feeding his ego and providing himself with security for his insecurity. It happened that way with me, I think.

-I don't feel that there is true knowledge in any matter, not for me at least. When I started believing in the phrase, the first thing that came into my mind was "Wait...I do know basic stuff like walking, talking, and writing, for example." And imediately a question went into my mind "Do I truly know that stuff? Or I understand all of that in a way that provides me with the ability to do them in the best way I can? If I knew, truly, I would be the best speaker, walker, and writer in the world. But that cannot happen,

-The seek of knowledge is also something I don't believe in. Let's say it happens, and someone does finds knowledge...then what is the only thing thats left after that, but the very own stop of movility, that eventually will end up in a comfort that will lead to the dumbness of civilization? Lets face it, that who thinks he knows, does not truly knows, and by thinking he does and sitting himself in the throne of knowledge, he condemns us all.

I'm new by the way, hi! Well actually I visited the forum back then in 2016 with another account but didn't stayed)
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rosalyn J, Carlos.Martinez3, Kobos, Kelrax Lorcken

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Jun 2019 22:14 #339941 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic True Knowledge
Knowledge is a recursive subject because it all comes down to the point

"(How, why) Do I know what knowledge is"

Quite a few brilliant people over the years have taken problem with that and found it easier to say what something isn't (although negation and non-being have their own baggage).

The way I see it, people's beliefs in things that are supposedly "logical" tend to still have a pathology based in their experiences and prejudices. Why do you believe what you've written? Are you really scared people will discover a monolithic truth that will complete our only reason for existence?

IP Team Lead
TM: Carlos Martinez
ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3, Kobos, Kelrax Lorcken, Victor

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Jun 2019 23:15 #339944 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic True Knowledge
Welcome Victor

There is a lot of things available in the world and most certainly different ways to attain them. We all come from different choices and different paths. Different levels and ways ideas and even how to get to those ideas can become a no no or a glow for some. Which is how we use it. How we choose. Nothing makes potential such a vast possibility as the ever family’s free will to choose. That can be applied to anything at any time anywhere. . . And truthfully for any reason. Life is full of possibilities- as is the path of a modern day Jeddist - where to apply maxims and koans and even codes and - who’s codes - and how ? Then trying to figure out and sort through all we find some days seems like a up hill battle like re filing a library card card catalog it self by letter alphabet instead of the Dewy decimal system. I’ll pass as well on that one. Here’s a old idea - “if you look for the dark you tend to find yourself in the shadows and if it’s light you seek you never really notice - the shadows are there the whole time too. “ what your focus is truly makes the sight you seek and see on a every day basis some times. No one Jeddist shall ever be like any other ... due to choices - availability of resources - location and opportunity. These make the color of mix and the individuality that any Jeddist can have ... if ... they choose. Forms greater or more common can be adapted or even taken - and any mix of that can make even more of a difference too. Truth can be seen from almost 7 billion different ways and shades and even share more than one connection with some or none. We as humans can pick and choose our own value and even when and where to place it. Those words knowledge and wisdom are even subjective to the individual as well. Soo allll that - and we share a label like Jeddist. Hmm makes ya think hu? The best part of all this is - we get to call it what we choose. Jewels or junk.??? Something to think about as well! May the Force be with you and may it continue to be with you as you continue to seek it !

Contact The Clergy
Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The Block
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos, Victor

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
22 Jun 2019 01:00 #339948 by Victor
Replied by Victor on topic True Knowledge
You both do intresting analysis and I agree with your displayed understandings. So...there is not a specific take on knowledge for you Jedi as a community, but a study on itself? If thats so, then I think I could be able to join, being that I study knowledge itself, I don't deny it, I just say I don't know nothing.

Anwering your first question, Rex, my beliefs on what I wrote are most likely based on my life experience and thoughts, but I think it's mostly on thoughts that look into my life experience than life experience per se defining what I believe in. Everyone has a life experience, but not everyone uses their freedom of thought in the same way, so conclusions difer.

Answering the second question...no, I don't think that mankind will actually get to truly know in the pure way of it, at the least myself as an individual wont. What may scare me is people thinking they adquired a monolithic knowledge. That, I think we already do and have done through history, finding out later that we were mistaken and regretting the cost of our actions.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3, Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
22 Jun 2019 01:45 #339949 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic True Knowledge
My inbox is always open friend - even for a single or multi exchange of found ideas ! May the Force be with you ! Look forward to seeing you in the forums !

Contact The Clergy
Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The Block
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos, Victor

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
22 Jun 2019 09:10 #339952 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic True Knowledge
Without trying to sound mean, but I think there is plenty more ego involved in adopting for oneself the saying of a probably fictional character who was claimed by the oracle in the same story to be the wisest man alive because of it, than there is in the humble recognition that yes, actually there are quite a great number of things you know, and probably a good number of things you don't.

Sure, a lot of the time when people say they know something, all it means is that they are rather quite confident in it being the case, eventhough they themselves would insist that it is more than a "mere" belief. Nevertheless, once some mostly incontroversial first principles can be established, a great many things can be derived from them, and to the extent to which we can be confident in the undisputed principles, so, too, we can have knowledge of their consequences.

How silly it can be to say that we know nothing is most obvious in examples of simple arithmetic that can be derived by reason alone. But even in matters of external, natural fact it just isn't the case that we know nothing. You know that the sun will set later tonight. You know this not only because you have observed it doing so for thousands of days already, but because you understand that the kind of cataclysmic change to the earth's spin it would take to stop the sun from setting beyond the horizon later tonight could only come about by an interaction so strong that we would have noticed it incoming or happening by now. Ah, but do we know that classical mechanics is reliable? Yes, we do. We tried relying on it for centuries, and it works. Do we know it is perfectly reliable? No, we know that it isn't, and we know what sort of adjustment is necessary to improve it.

There are, by all means, a lot of things we generally don't know, and a lot of things I or you specifically don't. But there is also a lot that we do. It is not necessary to deny the latter in an effort to recognize the former.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Rosalyn J, Kobos, Rex, Victor

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
22 Jun 2019 13:13 - 22 Jun 2019 13:35 #339953 by Victor
Replied by Victor on topic True Knowledge
Thanks Carlos! May we meet again.

About your first paragraph Gisteron, I said that I never understood that phrase, actually I always hated it. Just recently I found myself getting to that conclusion, I do not "adopt" a saying, I said it myself. And...no, I don't mean to be the wisest man alive, I think thats why I say I don't know nothing, better that than pretending to know everything...so I assume the lowest stance I can take, which is knowing nothing (being knowing everything the highest). I don't wish to be misunderstood here, I do belive there can be truths and people can be close to the truth, I do believe in understanding and learning. I think that this stance may aim me better in life, once asummed I already started acting different, slowly yes. Also, I see humility in this stance (not saying by that that I am humble myself)...there is doubt in it, awareness, yes...but that leads to a bigger sense of responsibility on the take of decisions, and it also provides one with the aceptance of human limitations.

Well, I said that for me it was a stance that a person takes in life...it's mostly assuming that you might be mistaken of almost everything, even on that very own assumption. I'm sorry but I disagree, we all share the same understandings of those examples that you named, and they are most likely to be true, and still I say, how silly it will be to assume that we master something with a purity that provides us with pure knowledge? You say we don't know a lot of things and that we do know a lot of others, what about the things you think you know and don't? Those are the dangerous ones, I think, so I recommend to doubt of everything and always have an eye open.

Thanks for your answer Gisteron, it was good to read your thoughts.
Last edit: 22 Jun 2019 13:35 by Victor.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3, Kobos

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
22 Jun 2019 13:43 - 22 Jun 2019 13:52 #339954 by Victor
Replied by Victor on topic True Knowledge
I wish to clarify that I'm not criticising Knowledge being one of your tenets and part of your code. I wanted to understand if you had a specific take on knowledge or if you just accepted various ones and were open-minded about that, so I would decide easly if I wished to join or not.
Last edit: 22 Jun 2019 13:52 by Victor.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3, Kobos, Kelrax Lorcken

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
22 Jun 2019 14:12 - 22 Jun 2019 14:20 #339956 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic True Knowledge
It is said by some that the nature of any knowledge is by consequence the root of all existence itself, of the which, while we may have some scientific models on to a certain point, we still do not know "why" beyond even that. By this chain of logic, the universal value of any knowledge henceforth is ultimately based after ignorance. I believe this is one of the originally established trains of thought behind the phrase. You may know how the earth formed here, around the the sun for example, but do you why the big bang happened in the first place to eventually bring it about? Or about if any of this has actually happened or if this is all an illusion based simulation? Because if that is the case then what you think you know may not be what you think it is at all. But to this do you even know? Not likely. Such is our reality of experience which we call consciousness, ultimately based in the unknown. That seems to be, in this light, the only thing we can say we know - that whatever this is, we are experiencing it.

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
Last edit: 22 Jun 2019 14:20 by Proteus.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kobos, Victor

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
22 Jun 2019 14:57 #339959 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic True Knowledge
A common theme I see pop up in many religious / esoteric forums is the idea of Absolute Knowledge, this idea that at some point in spiritual study and practice, some great revelation (enlightenment?) will suddenly bring forth a complete and holistic understanding of the universe.

No such thing.

“Ignorance, yet Knowledge” is an acknowledgement that we do not know a lot of things (a starting point of intellectual humility), but that we do strive to learn and know more. Thus striving would be in vain if we were to declare that it is impossible not to know something.

If your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete.

TM: Bruno Moreira (Kyber) | Public Journal
The following user(s) said Thank You: Garm, Carlos.Martinez3, Kobos, Kelrax Lorcken, Victor

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: KobosBrick