Discussing ideas, not people

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25 Mar 2019 22:54 - 25 Mar 2019 22:55 #336234 by Proteus
I think these kinds of things most often come down to presentation (how you communicate "truth" / "correction" / etc). If the intent is to get through to someone, your best chances of success is often learning more about how the other person(s) socially works and learning how to speak their language. If they are someone who you find is more sensitive to approval acknowledgment for example, then learn how to convey your messaged to them with that consideration (as doing the opposite you find makes them just reinforce their position). If someone is more thick-skinned you find, then obviously no need to sugarcoat your communication to them. It's basic social psychology. The point is, if you find yourself baffled and wondering why you keep getting so much flack when you post, it's rarely about who's got the more correct points, but about if your using the correct method to get a through to your audience.

I remember a quote that paraphrased, said that something along the lines of "people will not remember what you say as much as they will remember how you make them feel." Making someone feel willing to listen to your points, therefore seems like a key prerequisite to convincing them to genuinely consider them.

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
Last edit: 25 Mar 2019 22:55 by Proteus.
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25 Mar 2019 22:56 - 25 Mar 2019 22:59 #336235 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Discussing ideas, not people
Trying to nudge the topic away from the problem being discussed to dilute the problem seems disingenuous..... but I'm not discussing the people doing it, rather what they are doing. By the same margin misrepresenting what is being said by someone to pivot more criticality for the sake of argumentative momentum seems to be another way some are trying to marginalize a person who is trying to explore a topic.

I'd say, if they were discussing the ideas and beliefs it would be less of an issue. The problem isn't that people are too sensitive about being questioned, but rather when that creeps over to criticizing the person holding them it just frankly inappropriate in something like a workplace for example. If TotJO just wants to be an internet forum then have at it, but if it ever wanted to be an actual functioning 'organization' then it would have to get past the animal farm level of faux intellectualizing - they are not hard realizations.

Pretending it's the victims fault of abuse for being too sensitive is an old trick. The whole raft of BS thrown around here by some is just run of mill decades old internet trolling. I really doubt anyone is paying that much attention to it, but its a shame its from people in this particular community, for it in particular is vulnerable to being seen as childish to begin with. This doesn't help.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 25 Mar 2019 22:59 by Adder.
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26 Mar 2019 01:47 #336265 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Discussing ideas, not people
Many here would push for using better manners in conversation.

But manners were meant for saving face in a society where reputation is everything.

I find my best friends are those who skip manners and can tell me straight what they think (“dude, gross, you have brocoli in your teeth” is better than a bunch of people smiling and pretending they didn’t notice).

Manners are ONLY useful in protecting negatively affecting the persona.

But mature individuals know the difference between “wearing the persona” and “being the persona”.

I have always found how a person reacts to being called out in public as a good test of character (of course, what I value as good character: self-responsibility, resiliency, and emotional intelligence).

If your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete.

TM: Bruno Moreira (Kyber) | Public Journal
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26 Mar 2019 02:53 - 26 Mar 2019 02:55 #336278 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Reputation is not found in manners. Its found in hard work and in action and in perseverance and the willingness to do things that others are not willing to do, to make the sacrifices others never will. It's an ugly job but it's a necessary job. This is because freedom, either physical, spiritual, mental or psychological will never be found in some socially uniform, politically correct, coddling safe space. Do you know why? Because nature... life itself, does not give a fuck about your wellbeing. That is something each of us has to earn on his or her own and that can only be accomplished by growing a giant rock hard pair and taking extreme responsibility for ourselves.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

Associate Degree of Divinity - Earned July, 2017
Apprenticed to: Alan, Senan, Mendalicious
Tribute to Senan: My Friend
Last edit: 26 Mar 2019 02:55 by Kyrin Wyldstar.

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26 Mar 2019 03:11 #336282 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Discussing ideas, not people
Not sure anyone is disagreeing with you Kyrin, as its more about how its done not if its done. The whole Temple seems suited to creating an environment of stepwise pressuring for growth; initial contact area, pipeline to engage commitment, then personalized focus through that mode. Failing that process for whatever reason doesn't mean it doesn't work, cannot work, or be a good foundation for making it work. The no rules open slather approach is not really the best way to go IMO.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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26 Mar 2019 03:32 #336285 by Deimos
Replied by Deimos on topic Discussing ideas, not people
I always go by the rule of, "It's not what you say, but How you say it". That being said, I'm not saying sugarcoat every single thing, but if you know someone is an emotional person, saying something in, what they will perceive as, a rude or aggressive tone is not gonna win them over. If anything it will simply perpetuate the argument. I support discussions and debates, but the problem is some people do go too far on BOTH sides. Look at the Trump example given earlier. Some people hate Trump just to hate him but it goes both ways. That exact same concept could be applied for all arguments. It takes two to fight.

-Dei'mos

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26 Mar 2019 03:49 #336288 by Kyrin Wyldstar
But is it about winning people over? Or is it about weeding out the weak? Survival of the fittest builds the strongest society and if we can let the weak go the strongest, most capable society will be the one that emerges.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

Associate Degree of Divinity - Earned July, 2017
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Tribute to Senan: My Friend

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26 Mar 2019 04:00 #336290 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Discussing ideas, not people
The strongest societies are actually the most diverse ones, if we're talking about human society, AFAIK going by history. At least after moving into agricultural civilizations. It is different for animals IMO, with reduced faculties because the level of interaction is much lower (as far as would seem evident), in relative terms.

At the risk of being insulted again because of sharing my view on things, I'm not into modelling the peak experience of humanity around animals, rather I think animal models serve more usefully as 'compressed' processes. If we're all thinking at the same speed then its an issue of bandwidth, but since we can multi-task we can segment our bandwidth to functional smaller bands of overall width. So in that regard they are convenient simplifications, but much like thinking gods are human like, it seems just like another anthropomorphising to me and therefore inaccurate.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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26 Mar 2019 04:18 #336291 by Kyrin Wyldstar
The problem in this becomes in trying to arrogantly believe we are actually not animals. The reality is we are just animals, evolved to a specific niche to be sure, that has allowed us to thrive, but we are still only animals. And we function best in competition with our environment and with others of our species and those outside our species. It's why capitalism is the best form of government ever conceived of and why we have gone to the moon and why the United states has become the most powerful nation on the planet.

These are the things that define us as a species and the losers of these competitions are trying to convince us that this is not the most advantageous system available to us. They dont want equal opportunity but equal outcome and that simply goes against the laws of nature that we all not only must abide by but must realize is required for the species to thrive into the future.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

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26 Mar 2019 04:23 #336292 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Discussing ideas, not people
Yeap, which is why I think we can effectively think at different speeds. Not the bioelectricity as much as the information processing. Some reduced models work better when speed is required. Without going all Eight-Circuit Model of Consciousness.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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