Discussing ideas, not people

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25 Mar 2019 04:24 - 25 Mar 2019 05:21 #336195 by Proteus
I'm not sure. Perhaps we should be clear on what we mean when we talk about discussing people.

Do we mean simply making personal judgements upon a person's character apart from blowing a whistle when they make a foul with the rules, or does it include talking about them making a foul?

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
Last edit: 25 Mar 2019 05:21 by Proteus. Reason: Foul, not fowl

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25 Mar 2019 04:28 - 25 Mar 2019 06:48 #336196 by OB1Shinobi

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: All to often it is the ideas some have of other people that become the subject of discussion. These ideas are hopelessly skewed due to the limiting nature of this medium but that does not stop them from drawing conclusions and then stalking their quarry endlessly in the name of misplaced justice.


I think quite a many of us here fall into the camp of either “holier than thou” or “smug bastard” and cant help taking shots at the people on the other side. I am a smug bastard through and through and theres two things i can say about us: one of our defining attributes is that we really like to win- or at least we have to show everyone how smart or clever we are lol. The other is that no one gets on our nerves more than the holier than thou types who run around... well i wont call out anything specific, lol. No shots fired at the other camp if i can help it. I will only say its a good idea for us all to ask ourselves which we are.

If this makes me a patriarchal chauvinist pig for saying men and women are different then, guilty as charged. As i was typing this i realized that that i really dont see the women around here falling quite so neatly into these categories.

Anyway.
Ive seen people take shots at you Kyrin when it definitely wasnt necessary or appropriate. Its even seemed to me at times that theres people who are practically obsessive about disliking you, often making unspecific points about “disruptive people” lol and how the rules aren't strong enough or arent being enforced properly... rarely do they actually say your name, which i always take as a sign of pettiness. I believe if its worth saying then you shoulsd be clear about what you mean. I dont harp on this often and im not using it to justify any policy changes or castigations against anyone, so i dont feel im contradicting myself by not calling anyone out personally (and anyway, everyone here knows i will call people out, personally, for the simple reason that ve done it so many times)

I see your point and i agree its valid.

However, things are almost never “either/or” and Ive also seen you take shots at people when it wasnt necessary. I dont read every thread so even when i can tell its something carried over from somewhere else, i have no way to know who started it. All i can see is that youve got some back and forths going with any number of people at any given time and some of those back and forths result in hard feelings. Hard feelings carry over into other threads and create new back and forths which create more hard feelings. I dot deny that theres been plenty of holier than thou types who like to point thier fingers at you and say “theres the bad guy” but it appears to me that you can be quick to say things to people without a full appreciation of the impact that your words will have. As a smug bastard, i constantly have to wrestle with the question “do i want to always be in a battle with the people around me?” Realizing that i dont, ive had to put a lot of work into being more thoughtful about the words i use when i disagree with someone. The bummer is that even with the work, i still come across as a smug bastard, more often than not :laugh:

Beware of unearned wisdom.
-Carl Jung
Last edit: 25 Mar 2019 06:48 by OB1Shinobi.
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25 Mar 2019 04:29 - 25 Mar 2019 06:58 #336197 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Discussing ideas, not people

ren wrote: Is it a sign of malice or mental illness? Or something else.


Something else entirely actually, those people are generally discussing the 'talking about a person' rather then the person who might have done the talking about a person :silly:

Unless they are.... LOL

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 25 Mar 2019 06:58 by Adder.

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25 Mar 2019 05:07 #336199 by ren
Replied by ren on topic Discussing ideas, not people
It includes talking about them making a fowl, whether a fowl was found to be made or not by the fowl watchers. Same applies to fouls and referees, crimes and cops, etc.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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25 Mar 2019 11:32 - 25 Mar 2019 11:33 #336212 by Khaos
Replied by Khaos on topic Discussing ideas, not people


Be humble enough a person to know its not you being discussed

To keep it general enough not to offend anyone, people are very sensitive and in my mind a bit to full of themselves or own ideas not necessarily about the topic being discussed that they cannot do anything but make it about them.

I have seen warnings about discussing ideas and not people when it clearly has not happened, but people are too vain to not be the center of attention by being offended.

Hugs and Kisses.
~Khaos~
Last edit: 25 Mar 2019 11:33 by Khaos.
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25 Mar 2019 16:34 #336222 by Kyrin Wyldstar

OB1Shinobi wrote:
I think quite a many of us here fall into the camp of either “holier than thou” or “smug bastard” and cant help taking shots at the people on the other side.


I agree with everything you have said but I think there is also a third option. The Social Justice Warrior who cant keep ideas separate from people. This place touts the idea that attachment is a bad thing and yet I have never seen a truly detached Jedi. They get so wound around their ideas that they become a part of them so much so that they do not have an identity of self without these ideas. I tend to discuss strong subjects because that's what I like to do. But when those strong subjects are the very ego of the person I'm speaking to, it becomes perceived as a personal attack when it never is.

I support a republican Trump, but people are so attached to their democratic ideas that my support of Trump becomes an attack on them personally and I become perceived a fascist, a Nazi and a bigot. I tell them I dont believe in their psychic powers but instead of accepting my skeptical position on a paranormal claim they feel I have attacked their character in some personal way. I tell them they are wrong on a philosophical point and i become a soul crushing masochist that delights in pulling wings off flies instead of maybe facing the fact their idea is malformed. I say if you believe that you are an alien being from another star system sent here to help mankind evolve, that it might be a symptom of schizophrenia and people loose their shit!

People have this idea that everyone should just be accepting of any idea they have without question and when that does not happen it becomes an attack on their ego instead of a critique of an idea. I'm sorry but I don't have to accept everyone's ideas just because they said so. The problem is the world does not work this way and people should not have to tip toe around bad ideas just because it might dent a fragile psyche. The only way that psyche will ever get stronger is by exposing it to the truth. It's sometimes a painful process but a necessary one for growth. The first step is to recognize that twinge when you experience it and then evaluate it objectively for what it truly is instead of viscerally reacting and rejecting it out of hand, then doubling down on that attachment by turning it into a personal attack as a means to avoid that pain.

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25 Mar 2019 19:28 #336227 by Tellahane

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:
I think quite a many of us here fall into the camp of either “holier than thou” or “smug bastard” and cant help taking shots at the people on the other side.


I agree with everything you have said but I think there is also a third option. The Social Justice Warrior who cant keep ideas separate from people. This place touts the idea that attachment is a bad thing and yet I have never seen a truly detached Jedi. They get so wound around their ideas that they become a part of them so much so that they do not have an identity of self without these ideas. I tend to discuss strong subjects because that's what I like to do. But when those strong subjects are the very ego of the person I'm speaking to, it becomes perceived as a personal attack when it never is.

I support a republican Trump, but people are so attached to their democratic ideas that my support of Trump becomes an attack on them personally and I become perceived a fascist, a Nazi and a bigot. I tell them I dont believe in their psychic powers but instead of accepting my skeptical position on a paranormal claim they feel I have attacked their character in some personal way. I tell them they are wrong on a philosophical point and i become a soul crushing masochist that delights in pulling wings off flies instead of maybe facing the fact their idea is malformed. I say if you believe that you are an alien being from another star system sent here to help mankind evolve, that it might be a symptom of schizophrenia and people loose their shit!

People have this idea that everyone should just be accepting of any idea they have without question and when that does not happen it becomes an attack on their ego instead of a critique of an idea. I'm sorry but I don't have to accept everyone's ideas just because they said so. The problem is the world does not work this way and people should not have to tip toe around bad ideas just because it might dent a fragile psyche. The only way that psyche will ever get stronger is by exposing it to the truth. It's sometimes a painful process but a necessary one for growth. The first step is to recognize that twinge when you experience it and then evaluate it objectively for what it truly is instead of viscerally reacting and rejecting it out of hand, then doubling down on that attachment by turning it into a personal attack as a means to avoid that pain.


And who has the right to say that any given idea is bad for them? Perhaps it's not an issue of requiring one to tip toe but to respect that people can make their own choices and decisions to follow their ideas instead of evangelizing differing views upon them forcefully?

But then you can get into many philosophical discussions about when it's appropriate to intervene or not, usually drawn with a line of physical self harm or physical harm to others but can one try and correct someone else's belief? Or respect it?
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25 Mar 2019 20:47 #336230 by Kyrin Wyldstar

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
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25 Mar 2019 21:34 #336231 by Gisteron

Tellahane wrote: And who has the right to say that any given idea is bad for them?

Who has the right not to? "Oh, you're drinking battery acid, are you? Alright then. I respect that." What could possibly be a less empathetic, more selfish than that? People might be in plight or peril or thinking in ways that may lead them or others to it down the line, but heaven forbid we compromise our own feeling of humility by speaking up. Is this really how you feel? Sure, I have every right to withhold this critique from you. I have every right to not talk to anyone. Surely, you cannot be suggesting that this is what we do, can you? That we just abstain from life altogether?


Perhaps it's not an issue of requiring one to tip toe but to respect that people can make their own choices and decisions to follow their ideas instead of evangelizing differing views upon them forcefully?

Discussion is not force. Debate is not force. As long as we can talk still, there is no excuse to resort to more "forceful" means, but once we erase that line, then arguing against the latter becomes equivalent with it and hypocritical thusly. I frankly much rather we kept the distinction between force and dialogue.


But then you can get into many philosophical discussions about when it's appropriate to intervene or not, usually drawn with a line of physical self harm or physical harm to others but can one try and correct someone else's belief? Or respect it?

Yes. No belief is inherent. If we say people are incorrigible, cannot be reasoned with, then indeed force becomes the only way to resolve issues. It is the difference between thinking your opponent is wrong and thinking they are evil. In the former case discourse might promise a solution. In the latter, only battle. I still believe that diplomatic solutions are both possible and preferable, naive though thinking so may be...

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25 Mar 2019 21:41 #336232 by Tellahane

Gisteron wrote:

But then you can get into many philosophical discussions about when it's appropriate to intervene or not, usually drawn with a line of physical self harm or physical harm to others but can one try and correct someone else's belief? Or respect it?

Yes. No belief is inherent. If we say people are incorrigible, cannot be reasoned with, then indeed force becomes the only way to resolve issues. It is the difference between thinking your opponent is wrong and thinking they are evil. In the former case discourse might promise a solution. In the latter, only battle. I still believe that diplomatic solutions are both possible and preferable, naive though thinking so may be...


And how would you describe the process of achieving diplomatic solutions? what is your ideal methods between say two people of very opposing views?
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