Discussing ideas, not people

I'm assuming he means with Ari

FollowerOfDeimos wrote: I'm assuming he means with Ari

But not limited to..

I'm new so I don't know every instance of drama quite yet. School gets in the way of research lol

FollowerOfDeimos wrote: I'm new so I don't know every instance of drama quite yet. School gets in the way of research lol

I'd recommend avoiding learning about it. Not worth anyone's time.

Fair enough. It would be more for clarity and sake of understanding

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Williamkaede wrote:
In the short time I've come back this time I haven't seen you do much more than clash with others. Is this part of your mission?

Im afraid you are going to have to be more specific? What do you mean by "clash"?

All I've really seen you do is needle people and instigate conflict in threads to a point where yet again a thread dissolves into personal attacks. If this is some kind of mission for you, I would be interested in knowing exactly how it fits into being a Jedi, or Jedaii, if that's what we're calling non-committal Grey mediocrity these days.

Not to say that conflict doesn't have its uses, I've seen it wielded by the best, but it requires a subtlety and skill you honestly aren't bringing to the table. I think Rosalyn's previous comment about the hammer is spot on.

FollowerOfDeimos wrote: I'm new so I don't know every instance of drama quite yet. School gets in the way of research lol

I feel that. I'm taking a brief study break and then it's right back to my interpersonal violence essay.

Williamkaede wrote: All I've really seen you do is needle people and instigate conflict in threads to a point where yet again a thread dissolves into personal attacks. If this is some kind of mission for you, I would be interested in knowing exactly how it fits into being a Jedi, or Jedaii, if that's what we're calling non-committal Grey mediocrity these days.

Not to say that conflict doesn't have its uses, I've seen it wielded by the best, but it requires a subtlety and skill you honestly aren't bringing to the table. I think Rosalyn's previous comment about the hammer is spot on.

You are still going to have to be more specific. Making general statements about conflicts and threads is a strawman. I wont defend those generalities.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: All I've really seen you do is needle people and instigate conflict in threads to a point where yet again a thread dissolves into personal attacks. If this is some kind of mission for you, I would be interested in knowing exactly how it fits into being a Jedi, or Jedaii, if that's what we're calling non-committal Grey mediocrity these days.

Not to say that conflict doesn't have its uses, I've seen it wielded by the best, but it requires a subtlety and skill you honestly aren't bringing to the table. I think Rosalyn's previous comment about the hammer is spot on.

You are still going to have to be more specific. Making general statements about conflicts and threads is a strawman. I wont defend those generalities.

As you wish.

A couple of lame shots taken at people in this thread .

And here , with Adder.

Being pissy with council members here .

Trying to use 9/11 as a point and then doing nothing with it, here ? Actually I'm seeing a pattern here between you and Adder. And Arisaig - that's a whole goddamn thread in itself.

Not gonna lie, you've said some stuff I agree with and have discussed elsewhere. Gonna own that. But I really don't think a difference of belief is what's kept you from knighthood twice over.

Williamkaede wrote: As you wish.

Thanks for the detail. Now we can discuss something of relevance. I will endeavor to be as honest and forthcoming in this reply as possible. I am not here to cause trouble or stir the pot, so to speak. I honestly enjoy the interactions I have at this place and I find great pleasure in discussing difficult subjects with others. I have been harsh in my delivery at times and in the past I have been unfair because I carried my own cognitive biases. However I have never stopped trying to learn what those are and correct them. It is why I persist at this temple and it is why I continue to study with those I find worthy and it is why I have recently volunteered to actually assist the temple in its mission to improve training.

Honestly I’m a bit baffled by your choices in these selections but on to your specifics…

Williamkaede wrote: A couple of lame shots taken at people in this thread .

Earlier in this thread I made a claim that “you” was a commonly used term in casual conversation. I was asked to provide sources for this claim. I did that and James came back and said my reply was provocative. I was truly baffled and I simply asked for clarification in this reply, to which I received none, and so I moved on. My reply was not meant to be provocative in any way.

Williamkaede wrote: And here , with Adder.

This is a result of simply frustration on my part. I had asked Adder, several times, to clarify his position by asking specific details and including an exact scenario to which we could come to a common ground. I also had told him that if I had failed to answer any of his questions, something he accused me of, that I would be more than happy to answer them. Over and over he continued to ignore all of my questions, failed to ask any questions he thought I had not answered and ignored my scenario and continued on in his replies as if everything he was saying was in direct response to me. I had asked others in the thread, some of the smartest people I know here, if I was being obtuse, and the consensus was that it was Adder that was making non sequiturs over and over. My frustration got the better of me and I responded over zealously. In fact I sent him a PM later and apologized, however I still feel that thread was dreadfully derailed by him.

Williamkaede wrote: Being pissy with council members here .

You are reading an incredible amount into this reply that is simply not there. I was simply asking for clarification on a request. That was not a pissy reply in the slightest. It was an honest inquiry. Much of the problem here is what you don’t see behind the scenes and my attempts to keep the membership informed as to goings on. I had been asking for weeks on clarification and I was getting no response. So I thought an open conversation might be the way to go. It was adder that came after me first by making some claim about my belief in rank. I’m not even sure why that was relevant to the conversation. But I realized quickly it was going nowhere and ended the exchange. He came after me and tried to start a fight about rank, not the other way around. I took my request back to PM and got a proper response from Ren on the status. I am working with him on the request now.

Williamkaede wrote: Trying to use 9/11 as a point and then doing nothing with it, here ? Actually I'm seeing a pattern here between you and Adder. And Arisaig - that's a whole goddamn thread in itself.

What was I supposed to do with it in your opinion? I used it to make a point and that point was made. That sometimes logical discussion can’t be had in the face of radicalism. Once again adder was the aggressor here. He came after me in the next post and put extreme words in my mouth. I replied quite reasonably to him in the next post and we went on to discuss the subject a bit. After these last few exchanged with Adder I have stopped responding to him in fact because of his tendency to jump to conclusions as in this case. It’s just not worth it to me to be engaged in things like this.

Williamkaede wrote: Not gonna lie, you've said some stuff I agree with and have discussed elsewhere. Gonna own that. But I really don't think a difference of belief is what's kept you from knighthood twice over.

You have your opinion and I have mine and that is fine. However as I stated before, you only see a small portion of my interactions with this temple. There is an entire other world that you have no visibility into and I think you are making some unfair assessments without even really getting to know me. My views are not the norm of this place in many areas of my life and that has put me at odds with some here. It’s ok though. I have also realized that this is not the place I want to represent as a Knight and I think that is ok as well. I don’t follow the doctrine of this place but that does not mean that I am still not a “Jedi” nor that I can be a valuable contributor to this place in my own right. Many here do just the same thing. My goals right now include helping to develop that non-Knight path to B-div of other Jedi like me at this temple. That and showing people that they don’t have to be cookie cutouts but they can find and become themselves. I find value in that and that is enough for me.

There is a fear that dwells in places and communities who have Jedi as their focus and it is simply this - this cookie cutter fear of we all becoming the same or a fear of each of us not being individuals. The furthest can be evident by the mere reading Of each of our own responses. Such fears drive some away and others to persue their own itinerary. Some explore ideas while others do not. Jedi are smart - haven’t met a daft one yet. When we come to places like this it is really Up to us wether our focus be others, ourselfs or a mix of it all. All in all this place can be the open door we seek and warmth we pass or the closed windows and wet blanket to toss around. In the end it is to every Jedi to have their own balance. It’s encouraging to see both sides at times - the balance and the un balance. To the most recent members to the eldest of em my hope as a continued member is to grow - to build and never tare down. I’ve done enough of that quite literally in my life and I’ve exhausted the taste for it myself- as have a few here as well. Some teach out of many different reasons. Here in the Temple , there is no one like the other. Haven’t met them yet. Can it happen ? Probly but can I get hit by a car as well... chances are pretty equal to both outcomes for me. ( I see an average of 3 accidents when we go into town when we do- some day it may be me) All in all - our balance of ideas not people can be if it from balance as well- just like our forms of martial arts and literature and codes and religion and philosophy and ways and ideas and .... ya get the idea. May the Force be with y’all! May it continue to be with us all as we seek it and may it find us as - AS we seek it !

Well this topic should prove good resource for why things end up on people if anyone is bored enough to go through it... so maybe it is on topic

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: Trying to use 9/11 as a point and then doing nothing with it, here ? Actually I'm seeing a pattern here between you and Adder. And Arisaig - that's a whole goddamn thread in itself.

What was I supposed to do with it in your opinion? I used it to make a point and that point was made. That sometimes logical discussion can’t be had in the face of radicalism. Once again adder was the aggressor here. He came after me in the next post and put extreme words in my mouth. I replied quite reasonably to him in the next post and we went on to discuss the subject a bit. After these last few exchanged with Adder I have stopped responding to him in fact because of his tendency to jump to conclusions as in this case. It’s just not worth it to me to be engaged in things like this.

Well to me it looks like you got angry that you were denied Knighthood a couple of years ago and you've been poking members ever since while complaining about the Council and Temple over all. Then Zenchi stood up and told you off because he'd been through similar things when he was newer here and got pulled up for it, and didn't like what you were doing. Then ren jumped in on your side because he has a prior existing beef with Zenchi, and so Zenchi's Apprentice (now Knight) stood up for Zenchi being ganged up and bullied on by both you and Councillor ren. You yourself have been banned a few times from memory but that was done by Council so I wasn't really following it. So you've been given lots of chances to fit into the Temple, but seem to have troubles doing so. So I tried to not ignore you recently, and answer your questions and reply with you as honestly and fairly as I could on several topics which are important to me, but found you've just been getting worse with the course of probing turning to insulting depending on who gets frustrated first, them or you. And then when challenged about the insults you tend to cry conspiracy and put on the victim outfit. Much like you did when you were denied Knighthood. And now, it' so long running and complicated that anyone who tries to get a handle on it without the full story tends to side on the Jedi'esk position of turning the other cheek.

I personally have no beef with Kyrin, just with breaches of rules as I see them and only because I've been tasked as Mod for half a decade and more recently as Security Officer. People lie all the time on forums, and this one is no exception, even up to the highest levels. So, and otherwise, I'd just advise people to report it to the appropriate people and not engage troublemakers., but remember sometimes action takes time. The more evidence can be provided of wrongdoings the better.

But at the end of the day its in effect ren website, and what ends up happening is what he wants (if he is bothered to take a position). So if the participation rules no longer reflect the wants of ren and the Council, then I'd hope Council would change the rules and stop wasting everyone's time.

Adder wrote: Well this topic should prove good resource for why things end up on people if anyone is bored enough to go through it... so maybe it is on topic

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: Trying to use 9/11 as a point and then doing nothing with it, here ? Actually I'm seeing a pattern here between you and Adder. And Arisaig - that's a whole goddamn thread in itself.

What was I supposed to do with it in your opinion? I used it to make a point and that point was made. That sometimes logical discussion can’t be had in the face of radicalism. Once again adder was the aggressor here. He came after me in the next post and put extreme words in my mouth. I replied quite reasonably to him in the next post and we went on to discuss the subject a bit. After these last few exchanged with Adder I have stopped responding to him in fact because of his tendency to jump to conclusions as in this case. It’s just not worth it to me to be engaged in things like this.

Well to me it looks like you got angry that you were denied Knighthood a couple of years ago and you've been poking members ever since while complaining about the Council and Temple over all. Then Zenchi stood up and told you off because he'd been through similar things when he was newer here and got pulled up for it, and didn't like what you were doing. Then ren jumped in on your side because he has a prior existing beef with Zenchi, and so Zenchi's Apprentice (now Knight) stood up for Zenchi being ganged up and bullied on by both you and Councillor ren. You yourself have been banned a few times from memory but that was done by Council so I wasn't really following it. So you've been given lots of chances to fit into the Temple, but seem to have troubles doing so. So I tried to not ignore you recently, and answer your questions and reply with you as honestly and fairly as I could on several topics which are important to me, but found you've just been getting worse with the course of probing turning to insulting depending on who gets frustrated first, them or you. And then when challenged about the insults you tend to cry conspiracy and put on the victim outfit. Much like you did when you were denied Knighthood. And now, it' so long running and complicated that anyone who tries to get a handle on it without the full story tends to side on the Jedi'esk position of turning the other cheek.

I personally have no beef with Kyrin, just with breaches of rules as I see them and only because I've been tasked as Mod for half a decade and more recently as Security Officer. People lie all the time on forums, and this one is no exception, even up to the highest levels. So, and otherwise, I'd just advise people to report it to the appropriate people and not engage troublemakers., but remember sometimes action takes time. The more evidence can be provided of wrongdoings the better.

But at the end of the day its in effect ren website, and what ends up happening is what he wants (if he is bothered to take a position). So if the participation rules no longer reflect the wants of ren and the Council, then I'd hope Council would change the rules and stop wasting everyone's time.

Why do you believe it's "rens website"

Tellahane wrote:

Adder wrote: Well this topic should prove good resource for why things end up on people if anyone is bored enough to go through it... so maybe it is on topic

Why do you believe it's "rens website"

Just because I've seen when things come down to the line that is which way it always falls, usually in the face of logic, and he was the only one with full admin access for a very long time. Why is he still even an admin, I thought he was removed....
Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

Adder wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Adder wrote: Well this topic should prove good resource for why things end up on people if anyone is bored enough to go through it... so maybe it is on topic

Why do you believe it's "rens website"

Just because I've seen when things come down to the line that is which way it always falls, usually in the face of logic, and he was the only one with full admin access for a very long time. Why is he still even an admin, I thought he was removed....
Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

Good question to ask him I just work here...

First there have always been multiple superadmins, all with the ability to make backups.
Second I have always respected council decisions.
Third I was not removed. Other things are keeping me busy and I have failed to perform my duties for some time.
Fourth Kyrin can confirm I have asked her to stay away from Zenchi and Ari.
Fifth It is the way you, Adder, unfairly treat kyrin and perform your mod duties that causes me to support her, because she is no less deserving of fairness than anyone else.
Sixth I think kyrin makes valuable contributions and like many others wish the delivery were dramatically different.
Seventh you are completely out of line, get back in it.

My delivery is something I work incredibly hard on. I'm hoping to further that through a B-Div program. Senan and i were working that as well, unfortunately all things have their season and so new avenues must be found.

Is this the way of the temple? Is the past so important? Has the temple been so horrible devided over some little rift raft? Let's not attack one another. This is a church after all is it not.

ren wrote: First there have always been multiple superadmins, all with the ability to make backups.

Who? Not what I've led to believe. Unless you mean Br John who has admitted more then once he has no IT knowledge and you'd know that does not count. There was Proteus as your assistant for awhile but you told me you didn't give him full access. And it wasn't until recently that Tellahane was able to wrestle a copy from you.

ren wrote: Second I have always respected council decisions.

Well I've seen you bully Mark Anjuu and Wescli Werdast in Council and when it came to you or them Br John always sided with you, seemingly because only you had the keys to the site!

ren wrote: Third I was not removed. Other things are keeping me busy and I have failed to perform my duties for some time.

I was talking about Kyrin being banned, not you. Since you bought it up you did chose to leave for quite awhile, at your own admission, but retained full control and access etc. But its not what I said so has little relevance.

ren wrote: Fourth Kyrin can confirm I have asked her to stay away from Zenchi and Ari.

And?

ren wrote: Fifth It is the way you, Adder, unfairly treat kyrin and perform your mod duties that causes me to support her, because she is no less deserving of fairness than anyone else.

Which mod duties are those ren? Because I was just going through the thread about Kyrin and I had pretty much stayed out of it entirely until about 2 months ago. And then all I did once was a lock a thread from getting out of hand. You seem to be grasping and reaching a bit buddy... prove it or lose it. A lot of people are sick of your BS more then anyone elses.... if your going to join in and escalate things at least put some meat on the bone.

ren wrote: Sixth I think kyrin makes valuable contributions and like many others wish the delivery were dramatically different.

I agree. I've 'thanked' her posts a few times. Relevance??

ren wrote: Seventh you are completely out of line, get back in it.

So its ok for Kyrin and you to throw muck at people but not people to throw it back at youz. Typical. Feel free to clarify otherwise I'll ignore you entirely. I don't mind losing 'Security Officer' or moderation roles one iota if that is what your suggesting, but it was raised that there was an issue between Kyrin and I, and Kyrin had her say so I think its fair I get to point my version also. Unless your referring to my comments about you, so feel free to clarify.

Who? Not what I've led to believe. Unless you mean Br John who has admitted more then once he has no IT knowledge and you'd know that does not count. There was Proteus as your assistant for awhile but you told me you didn't give him full access. And it wasn't until recently that Tellahane was able to wrestle a copy from you.

I'm an outsider looking in. A member of this church. There is others like me who are reading. We do have clergy and council. This is not the place nor the time to bring the past up. From my understanding Twllahane now has a copy. So why bring this up?

Well I've seen you bully Mark Anjuu and Wescli Werdast in Council and when it came to you or them Br John always sided with you, seemingly because only you had the keys to the site!

I Feel bad if this is the case. There is Clergy to talk to about these matters. The council does have a lot of control on what goes on. They are a team and one Council member does not have total control thus is why we have a council. We must have faith in them.

I was talking about Kyrin being banned, not you. Since you bought it up you did chose to leave for quite awhile, at your own admission, but retained full control and access etc. But its not what I said so has little relevance.

Never the less this is not the place for this. I'm not taking sides because I dont know what happened I just really want to make it known that this is not the place nor the time for fighting other Jedi.



And?

Which mod duties are those ren? Because I was just going through the thread about Kyrin and I had pretty much stayed out of it entirely until about 2 months ago. And then all I did once was a lock a thread from getting out of hand. You seem to be grasping and reaching a bit buddy... prove it or lose it. A lot of people are sick of your BS more then anyone elses.... if your going to join in and escalate things at least put some meat on the bone.

You take part blame in escalating things... Be mindful. Remember that nows not the time. A more diplomatic approach will help your cause a lot more.

I agree. I've 'thanked' her posts a few times. Relevance??

is the word relevance needed? I'm sure you have thanked her. There is no need to add anything more to that.

So its ok for Kyrin and you to throw muck at people but not people to throw it back at youz. Typical. Feel free to clarify otherwise I'll ignore you entirely. I don't mind losing 'Security Officer' or moderation roles one iota if that is what your suggesting, but it was raised that there was an issue between Kyrin and I, and Kyrin had her say so I think its fair I get to point my version also. Unless your referring to my comments about you, so feel free to clarify.

It would be a great loss to lose you mainly if the accusations you say are true. I really hope people can over look your comments and some things can get worked out more diplomatically.

Please don't take what i say as taking sides. I just know this is the wrong way to go about doing this.

May the force be with you.

This thread has gotten wildly out of wing. Can we bring it around?