Discussing ideas, not people

Williamkaede wrote: If you can't be better than this, then there's some serious work to do.

You have definitely gotten that right! If you have a senior member of council telling you something is true and you still deny it as false just to attack another member on this board, well... my mission as a Ranger continues.

Arisaig wrote: He is still a Knight, still about, and still twice the jedi most can hope to be. It's not and insult, it's a fact.

In the end, Kyrin, you are wrong about this.
Accept it.

Ari, um, that's actually an opinion. I know you respect him as he is your TM, (everyone knows how much I look up to mine), but I'm not sure that declaring such things like that around here is going to come off very fair or mature toward others. I'm just trying to give you a suggestion of awareness.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: If you can't be better than this, then there's some serious work to do.

You have definitely gotten that right! If you have a senior member of council telling you something is true and you still deny it as false just to attack another member on this board, well... my mission as a Ranger continues.

As far as the continuing social pattern I've seen thus far, as long as you have this so-called mission, you're probably not going to come off any more convincing or successful than the people you are pinning your mission on.

My comment wasn't remotely restricted to Arisaig or even written with him in mind. I've seen quite a few people come and go from here and it doesn't seem to be doing the quality of this Order any favours. The linked thread has quite a few names on it I'm sad to see have left. I'd be quite interested in knowing what schism TOTJO has been through this time and what site they've joined.

Incidentally - what exactly do you seek through all your instigating?

Proteus wrote:

Arisaig wrote: He is still a Knight, still about, and still twice the jedi most can hope to be. It's not and insult, it's a fact.

In the end, Kyrin, you are wrong about this.
Accept it.

Ari, um, that's actually an opinion. I know you respect him as he is your TM, (everyone knows how much I look up to mine), but I'm not sure that declaring such things like that around here is going to come off very fair or mature toward others. I'm just trying to give you a suggestion of awareness.

Fairness has nothing to do with it, when the person that I have to defend against won't hesitate to stoop to unfairness themselves. Yes, my view is biased, but it doesn't make it wrong.

Proteus wrote: As far as the continuing social pattern I've seen thus far, as long as you have this so-called mission, you're probably not going to come off any more convincing or successful than the people you are pinning your mission on.

Its not a social pattern. Its a defensive posture that I have been forced to undertake. As for my "mission" it is not pinned to anyone. Its the pursuit of truth. I have said this many many times before. Thats all it is. I think its an honest mission and a fair one. Do you see it differently?

I don't think he was saying you're wrong. I think he was saying that the verbage and phrasing was off putting and might come off as, as he put it, immature towards others. Not saying anyone's right or wrong, just saying what I see in this. And I see two differing view points as the focus that can't seem to get along, which saddens me whenever I see two+ people who are very passionate about their beliefs. Can't we all at least try to get alone and see the other side of the fence?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Proteus wrote: As far as the continuing social pattern I've seen thus far, as long as you have this so-called mission, you're probably not going to come off any more convincing or successful than the people you are pinning your mission on.

Its not a social pattern. Its a defensive posture that I have been forced to undertake. As for my "mission" it is not pinned to anyone. Its the pursuit of truth. I have said this many many times before. Thats all it is. I think its an honest mission and a fair one. Do you see it differently?

In the short time I've come back this time I haven't seen you do much more than clash with others. Is this part of your mission?

Our "missions" in a general sense are derived from how we see the world and or how we see the spaces we occuppy, something I like to call narratives.

To an individual with only a hammer, everything is a nail

Williamkaede wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Proteus wrote: As far as the continuing social pattern I've seen thus far, as long as you have this so-called mission, you're probably not going to come off any more convincing or successful than the people you are pinning your mission on.

Its not a social pattern. Its a defensive posture that I have been forced to undertake. As for my "mission" it is not pinned to anyone. Its the pursuit of truth. I have said this many many times before. Thats all it is. I think its an honest mission and a fair one. Do you see it differently?

In the short time I've come back this time I haven't seen you do much more than clash with others. Is this part of your mission?

Im afraid you are going to have to be more specific? What do you mean by "clash"?

I'm assuming he means with Ari

FollowerOfDeimos wrote: I'm assuming he means with Ari

But not limited to..

I'm new so I don't know every instance of drama quite yet. School gets in the way of research lol

FollowerOfDeimos wrote: I'm new so I don't know every instance of drama quite yet. School gets in the way of research lol

I'd recommend avoiding learning about it. Not worth anyone's time.

Fair enough. It would be more for clarity and sake of understanding

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Williamkaede wrote:
In the short time I've come back this time I haven't seen you do much more than clash with others. Is this part of your mission?

Im afraid you are going to have to be more specific? What do you mean by "clash"?

All I've really seen you do is needle people and instigate conflict in threads to a point where yet again a thread dissolves into personal attacks. If this is some kind of mission for you, I would be interested in knowing exactly how it fits into being a Jedi, or Jedaii, if that's what we're calling non-committal Grey mediocrity these days.

Not to say that conflict doesn't have its uses, I've seen it wielded by the best, but it requires a subtlety and skill you honestly aren't bringing to the table. I think Rosalyn's previous comment about the hammer is spot on.

FollowerOfDeimos wrote: I'm new so I don't know every instance of drama quite yet. School gets in the way of research lol

I feel that. I'm taking a brief study break and then it's right back to my interpersonal violence essay.

Williamkaede wrote: All I've really seen you do is needle people and instigate conflict in threads to a point where yet again a thread dissolves into personal attacks. If this is some kind of mission for you, I would be interested in knowing exactly how it fits into being a Jedi, or Jedaii, if that's what we're calling non-committal Grey mediocrity these days.

Not to say that conflict doesn't have its uses, I've seen it wielded by the best, but it requires a subtlety and skill you honestly aren't bringing to the table. I think Rosalyn's previous comment about the hammer is spot on.

You are still going to have to be more specific. Making general statements about conflicts and threads is a strawman. I wont defend those generalities.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: All I've really seen you do is needle people and instigate conflict in threads to a point where yet again a thread dissolves into personal attacks. If this is some kind of mission for you, I would be interested in knowing exactly how it fits into being a Jedi, or Jedaii, if that's what we're calling non-committal Grey mediocrity these days.

Not to say that conflict doesn't have its uses, I've seen it wielded by the best, but it requires a subtlety and skill you honestly aren't bringing to the table. I think Rosalyn's previous comment about the hammer is spot on.

You are still going to have to be more specific. Making general statements about conflicts and threads is a strawman. I wont defend those generalities.

As you wish.

A couple of lame shots taken at people in this thread .

And here , with Adder.

Being pissy with council members here .

Trying to use 9/11 as a point and then doing nothing with it, here ? Actually I'm seeing a pattern here between you and Adder. And Arisaig - that's a whole goddamn thread in itself.

Not gonna lie, you've said some stuff I agree with and have discussed elsewhere. Gonna own that. But I really don't think a difference of belief is what's kept you from knighthood twice over.

Williamkaede wrote: As you wish.

Thanks for the detail. Now we can discuss something of relevance. I will endeavor to be as honest and forthcoming in this reply as possible. I am not here to cause trouble or stir the pot, so to speak. I honestly enjoy the interactions I have at this place and I find great pleasure in discussing difficult subjects with others. I have been harsh in my delivery at times and in the past I have been unfair because I carried my own cognitive biases. However I have never stopped trying to learn what those are and correct them. It is why I persist at this temple and it is why I continue to study with those I find worthy and it is why I have recently volunteered to actually assist the temple in its mission to improve training.

Honestly I’m a bit baffled by your choices in these selections but on to your specifics…

Williamkaede wrote: A couple of lame shots taken at people in this thread .

Earlier in this thread I made a claim that “you” was a commonly used term in casual conversation. I was asked to provide sources for this claim. I did that and James came back and said my reply was provocative. I was truly baffled and I simply asked for clarification in this reply, to which I received none, and so I moved on. My reply was not meant to be provocative in any way.

Williamkaede wrote: And here , with Adder.

This is a result of simply frustration on my part. I had asked Adder, several times, to clarify his position by asking specific details and including an exact scenario to which we could come to a common ground. I also had told him that if I had failed to answer any of his questions, something he accused me of, that I would be more than happy to answer them. Over and over he continued to ignore all of my questions, failed to ask any questions he thought I had not answered and ignored my scenario and continued on in his replies as if everything he was saying was in direct response to me. I had asked others in the thread, some of the smartest people I know here, if I was being obtuse, and the consensus was that it was Adder that was making non sequiturs over and over. My frustration got the better of me and I responded over zealously. In fact I sent him a PM later and apologized, however I still feel that thread was dreadfully derailed by him.

Williamkaede wrote: Being pissy with council members here .

You are reading an incredible amount into this reply that is simply not there. I was simply asking for clarification on a request. That was not a pissy reply in the slightest. It was an honest inquiry. Much of the problem here is what you don’t see behind the scenes and my attempts to keep the membership informed as to goings on. I had been asking for weeks on clarification and I was getting no response. So I thought an open conversation might be the way to go. It was adder that came after me first by making some claim about my belief in rank. I’m not even sure why that was relevant to the conversation. But I realized quickly it was going nowhere and ended the exchange. He came after me and tried to start a fight about rank, not the other way around. I took my request back to PM and got a proper response from Ren on the status. I am working with him on the request now.

Williamkaede wrote: Trying to use 9/11 as a point and then doing nothing with it, here ? Actually I'm seeing a pattern here between you and Adder. And Arisaig - that's a whole goddamn thread in itself.

What was I supposed to do with it in your opinion? I used it to make a point and that point was made. That sometimes logical discussion can’t be had in the face of radicalism. Once again adder was the aggressor here. He came after me in the next post and put extreme words in my mouth. I replied quite reasonably to him in the next post and we went on to discuss the subject a bit. After these last few exchanged with Adder I have stopped responding to him in fact because of his tendency to jump to conclusions as in this case. It’s just not worth it to me to be engaged in things like this.

Williamkaede wrote: Not gonna lie, you've said some stuff I agree with and have discussed elsewhere. Gonna own that. But I really don't think a difference of belief is what's kept you from knighthood twice over.

You have your opinion and I have mine and that is fine. However as I stated before, you only see a small portion of my interactions with this temple. There is an entire other world that you have no visibility into and I think you are making some unfair assessments without even really getting to know me. My views are not the norm of this place in many areas of my life and that has put me at odds with some here. It’s ok though. I have also realized that this is not the place I want to represent as a Knight and I think that is ok as well. I don’t follow the doctrine of this place but that does not mean that I am still not a “Jedi” nor that I can be a valuable contributor to this place in my own right. Many here do just the same thing. My goals right now include helping to develop that non-Knight path to B-div of other Jedi like me at this temple. That and showing people that they don’t have to be cookie cutouts but they can find and become themselves. I find value in that and that is enough for me.

There is a fear that dwells in places and communities who have Jedi as their focus and it is simply this - this cookie cutter fear of we all becoming the same or a fear of each of us not being individuals. The furthest can be evident by the mere reading Of each of our own responses. Such fears drive some away and others to persue their own itinerary. Some explore ideas while others do not. Jedi are smart - haven’t met a daft one yet. When we come to places like this it is really Up to us wether our focus be others, ourselfs or a mix of it all. All in all this place can be the open door we seek and warmth we pass or the closed windows and wet blanket to toss around. In the end it is to every Jedi to have their own balance. It’s encouraging to see both sides at times - the balance and the un balance. To the most recent members to the eldest of em my hope as a continued member is to grow - to build and never tare down. I’ve done enough of that quite literally in my life and I’ve exhausted the taste for it myself- as have a few here as well. Some teach out of many different reasons. Here in the Temple , there is no one like the other. Haven’t met them yet. Can it happen ? Probly but can I get hit by a car as well... chances are pretty equal to both outcomes for me. ( I see an average of 3 accidents when we go into town when we do- some day it may be me) All in all - our balance of ideas not people can be if it from balance as well- just like our forms of martial arts and literature and codes and religion and philosophy and ways and ideas and .... ya get the idea. May the Force be with y’all! May it continue to be with us all as we seek it and may it find us as - AS we seek it !