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12 Mar 2019 15:54 - 12 Mar 2019 15:55 #335443 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Arisaig wrote:
It sorta is, and of course its more complex than the example I gave it. Your country loves war and profit of the rich over the lives and mental and physical well-being of the hard working American.

but, of course, more complex than that. More funded than the next twenty counties militaries combined, while many of those following it also fund a full military, pay their soldiers better, and have healthcare. But whadda I know, eh?


Guess why those countries can do that. yes you guessed it, The United States. Are you suggesting we just pull all those budgets and direct that money inward leaving all those foreign militaries having to actually spend their due on their defense or be invaded and in the process have their internal wealth collapse?

I dont think this discussion was supposed to be about US military defense anyway. :pinch:

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Last edit: 12 Mar 2019 15:55 by Kyrin Wyldstar.

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12 Mar 2019 15:57 #335444 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic US Universal Healthcare

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote:
It sorta is, and of course its more complex than the example I gave it. Your country loves war and profit of the rich over the lives and mental and physical well-being of the hard working American.

but, of course, more complex than that. More funded than the next twenty counties militaries combined, while many of those following it also fund a full military, pay their soldiers better, and have healthcare. But whadda I know, eh?


Guess why those countries can do that. yes you guessed it, The United States. Are you suggesting we just pull all those budgets and direct that money inward leaving all those foreign militaries having to actually spend their due on their defense or be invaded and in the process have their internal wealth collapse?

I dont think this discussion was supposed to be about US military defense anyway. :pinch:


No, it wasn't supposed to be about it. Thanks.

And yes, the States should get their nose outta other countries and fix themselves first. Log outta your own eye before you remove the splinter from your neighbour...

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12 Mar 2019 16:16 - 12 Mar 2019 16:16 #335447 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Arisaig wrote:
And yes, the States should get their nose outta other countries and fix themselves first. Log outta your own eye before you remove the splinter from your neighbour...[/color]


Bold words from one who has inhabited not one but two countries that greatly benefit from the United States protections. Everyone begs the US to help them and save them and when we do its complained about. We don't help we get accused of indifference, we do help we get accused of interference. Well take your medicine world and get over it.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
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Last edit: 12 Mar 2019 16:16 by Kyrin Wyldstar.

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12 Mar 2019 20:57 #335469 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic US Universal Healthcare

TheDude wrote: I've looked into the cost of some hospital supplies; some hospitals charge over 1000x the actual cost of an item (such as an IV bag) in the US. If hospitals and doctors did not charge ridiculously high fees, insurance companies would have to pay them less. If insurance companies didn't have to pay as much, people buying the insurance wouldn't have to pay as much. An affordable and reasonable healthcare system which doesn't require compulsory membership (and thereby respects the autonomy of individuals in the state) is totally achievable, it just requires doctors to take seriously their duty to heal the sick.


This is something I have seen reported by many American friends. The example of hospital supplies, or ambulance rides, for example. Why exactly are they so ridiculously high?

I am sure quality alone does not account for the high price. Also, what stops new and potentially smaller capitalists from wanting to invest? (If I were a capitalist, I would offer more affordable care, getting a huge chunk of the market and still making an interesting margin despite offering low cost).

Long-term consistency trumps short term intensity
- Bruce Lee

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12 Mar 2019 21:57 #335472 by Tellahane
Replied by Tellahane on topic US Universal Healthcare

Manu wrote:

TheDude wrote: I've looked into the cost of some hospital supplies; some hospitals charge over 1000x the actual cost of an item (such as an IV bag) in the US. If hospitals and doctors did not charge ridiculously high fees, insurance companies would have to pay them less. If insurance companies didn't have to pay as much, people buying the insurance wouldn't have to pay as much. An affordable and reasonable healthcare system which doesn't require compulsory membership (and thereby respects the autonomy of individuals in the state) is totally achievable, it just requires doctors to take seriously their duty to heal the sick.


This is something I have seen reported by many American friends. The example of hospital supplies, or ambulance rides, for example. Why exactly are they so ridiculously high?

I am sure quality alone does not account for the high price. Also, what stops new and potentially smaller capitalists from wanting to invest? (If I were a capitalist, I would offer more affordable care, getting a huge chunk of the market and still making an interesting margin despite offering low cost).


It's high because of the number of people who don't pay and/or don't have insurance. Or worse they have government insurance programs such as medicare/medicaid.

For example, We HAVE to as an ambulance service anywhere servicing a 911 area, pick up and treat you, whether you have insurance or not. So if your overdosed as a homeless person in the park, we treat all of that, and we collect no money for it, because they can't pay. So when you do 2-3 of those inbetween a call with someone who has legit insurance and so forth on the regular basis, in order to cover the costs of those other calls you have to raise the costs of your supplies and interventions for billing across the board evenly. Same thing for hospitals. Then you have wonderful programs like state medicaid and medicare programs, who are so underfunded you don't get your costs covered from that either. I can take a transport to a specialist facility 2 hours away, Advanced life support, several meds and interventions going etc, and if they have medicare the cost of that ambulance ride "might" depending on your area be somewhere around $2500-$5000 easily, but medicare will only cover maybe $1500 of it and thats only because of the mileage, a 10 minute transport or down the street, doing all the interventions necessairy for say a possible heart attack, $1500, medicare will maybe pay $200...And we have to accept that because of government laws. So Those who have insurance or can self pay are essentially paying higher costs because of all the people who don't, or can't afford it.

You can possibly correlate the cost of healthcare to two problems, one being the amount of people who can't financially afford it, and thus a spinning circle that will only get worse, but also pharmaceutical companies who are not only charging out rages prices because they can, but they intentionally come up with and put out more expensive treatments, more expensive devices for "advanced care" and "scientific breakthroughs" and any other catch phrases to get you on board as well.

The whole thing is annoying, but unless the government is going to throw a budget equal to the US military at universal health care I highly doubt it will ever be a thing. They can't even fund medicare now...
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12 Mar 2019 22:41 - 12 Mar 2019 22:41 #335474 by Kyrin Wyldstar
What tella is saying is exactly what I said. Highly regulated requires services to be provided regardless of ability to pay and lack of free competitive market leaves no competition for companies or even doctors or hospitals so they can charge whatever they want and there is nothing to force them to drive down prices or increase quality.

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Last edit: 12 Mar 2019 22:41 by Kyrin Wyldstar.

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14 Mar 2019 05:45 #335550 by Eugene
Replied by Eugene on topic US Universal Healthcare

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote:
And yes, the States should get their nose outta other countries and fix themselves first. Log outta your own eye before you remove the splinter from your neighbour...[/color]


Bold words from one who has inhabited not one but two countries that greatly benefit from the United States protections. Everyone begs the US to help them and save them and when we do its complained about. We don't help we get accused of indifference, we do help we get accused of interference. Well take your medicine world and get over it.



Sweet sassafras, just what tabloids is yer nose stuck in?!:pinch:

To be straight and short, our government even if it "is" founding a major part of NATO, "can" redirect founding to proper healthcare for all. How? the Aussie gave a good example but it's not so much in tanks as it is aircraft. Congress is buying a jet called the joint strike fighter, and even tho statistics show it to be "massively" inefficient for the role's it's meant to takeover, there still going to pay the "$6 million per unit".

Love, is the life blood of the living force; to not embrace it, to scorn it, is only to harm thy self.
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14 Mar 2019 06:57 - 14 Mar 2019 07:24 #335552 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic US Universal Healthcare
The F35 kicks arse! Lockheed Martin should hire me I could sing its praises so loud :D

Defense spending is one of those things.... the US (and 'the West') needs a technological advantage to counter for the numerical disadvantage it has against the pool of other players both individually (in China alone) or as pacts (like the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation). And R&D costs a fortune.... and must be ongoing. Then add to that the higher standards of living required by developed countries in 'the West' and the military is going to be expensive, really expensive. But history tends to tell a story of preparation prevents poor performance, and so when it comes to security its of the highest need. No need for healthcare if your being invaded :silly: And no-one can magic up an innovation advantage to large capability overnight, especially in the time that a large low tech threat can develop increases in its capabilities - the mismatch affords them an advantage, as its just easier to make lots of simple stuff if you have the boots to wield it. Not only that, but having the technological advantage is the same as having the advantage of surprise, which for a good intentioned nation is a good thing (affords fast and effective reaction to surprise), but for a bad intentioned nation its a really bad thing (see Hitler).

Then of course add to that all the other security demands placed on it to support globalization and continued expansion of human rights. It's great to see the finish line but sprinting too soon might put one out the race entirely. It's a long game, something China seems quite good at.

PS: the F35 is going to cost closer to $100 million per unit, but there are various ways to measure cost of course; per flying hour, per jet, per jet plus share of whole fleet program supports etc etc.

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Last edit: 14 Mar 2019 07:24 by Adder.
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14 Mar 2019 15:03 #335570 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Eugene wrote: Sweet sassafras, just what tabloids is yer nose stuck in?!:pinch:

To be straight and short, our government even if it "is" founding a major part of NATO, "can" redirect founding to proper healthcare for all. How? the Aussie gave a good example but it's not so much in tanks as it is aircraft. Congress is buying a jet called the joint strike fighter, and even tho statistics show it to be "massively" inefficient for the role's it's meant to takeover, there still going to pay the "$6 million per unit".


Not buying aircraft is the single worst thing the military could do! Air power and wartime air superiority is the single most important deciding factor in any modern day war. Not keeping a strong air power would be the stupidest thing the US could do. A more effective route would be to actually cut that big govt budget you love so much that is slowly bleeding us dry and instead deregulate and privatize health care.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
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14 Mar 2019 21:24 #335645 by Eugene
Replied by Eugene on topic US Universal Healthcare
I am not saying that we should "ditch" the air force, nor am I saying that we "shouldn't" develop batter defensive system's in which to defend our nation; what I'm saying, is that we can not field an aircraft to take on multiple "specific" roles which it can not handle.

To define what I mean let us look to nature. The peregrine falcon evolved to "dive" at there target clocking in at over 200 mph, the harpy eagle evolved to "dodge" between tree's on it's hunt in the amazon; and then the penguin, evolved to torpedo thru the ocean at over 20 mph.

Each evolved for max efficiency in a specific "way" of hunting, and that is what we should emulate. the F 35/joint strike fighter is thus inefficient for what it's worth, and we can put that money else where.

Love, is the life blood of the living force; to not embrace it, to scorn it, is only to harm thy self.
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