Can gift giving be selfish?

To go even further. Where is the dividing line between mind and brain? Spirit and body? How do you define the individual verses the collective? Where does one end and the other begin?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: To go even further. Where is the dividing line between mind and brain? Spirit and body? How do you define the individual verses the collective? Where does one end and the other begin?

Yes! The question that we should really be asking! Thank you, Kyrin! Indeed, where is the dividing line? Where does one stop and the other start?

Do you know?

I don't.

Who does?

Let me ask you this... where are past, present, and future separate. They can be soon, here, and gone in a matter of milliseconds. Where does one draw the line? How small a fraction of time do we need to individualize them? Or is it all in our heads? Is time, then, irrelevant?

It isn't my point to discuss time, only to point out our way of thinking. We tend to split apart things that are meant to be One. OB1 made the example of two candles. Yes they appear separate. But cannot one candle light another? "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

_Vergere_ wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: To go even further. Where is the dividing line between mind and brain? Spirit and body? How do you define the individual verses the collective? Where does one end and the other begin?

Yes! The question that we should really be asking! Thank you, Kyrin! Indeed, where is the dividing line? Where does one stop and the other start?

Do you know?

I don't.

Who does?

Let me ask you this... where are past, present, and future separate. They can be soon, here, and gone in a matter of milliseconds. Where does one draw the line? How small a fraction of time do we need to individualize them? Or is it all in our heads? Is time, then, irrelevant?

It isn't my point to discuss time, only to point out our way of thinking. We tend to split apart things that are meant to be One. OB1 made the example of two candles. Yes they appear separate. But cannot one candle light another? "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

I asked if there is a difference between spirit and mind, could you respond?

Id then like to ask where spirit and mind come from, but we cant ask this until we at least consider if they are the same thing or not. Are they fhe same thing?

You prefer the question of the difference between the one and the collective. Its curious to me that you say that you dont know but then go on to speak a definite opinion on the question. Maybe we should all preface our questions with the words “in your opinion...”?

In my opinion, the difference between the one and the collective is the boundaries of our physical bodies. Each of us is an individual. We may be connected in any number of ways, but we live and die in our own skin. Republicans are one party, they arent one person. Human beings are one species, we arent all one individual. The Joneses are one family, they arent one single consciousness. We can discuss them as groups - the dogma of the Republican Party or the impact of humans on the Earth or the competitive influence the Joneses have on the neighborhood, but the groups are made of individual people. Individuals can leave the groups and the groups will still continue.

If you disagree thats great, would you be able to explain what you actually think is true? And also maybe what lead you to that conclusion?

I too am talking about the different ways that people think. Youre speaking here in a very vague and mysterious way. You say “your eyes can decieve you, dont trust them” but you offer no alternative.
Dont you trust your eyes for virtually everything that you do? Are you by chance accessing the web in brail? Our bodies are evolved to process information from our environments and the eyes are one of the most important and complex organs for doing so. And youre saying i should stop trusting them? What should i trust instead of my eyes....?

I missed some of the middle posts, but to the OP -

Mothers are always nuts - it is a child's gift to the mother at "family times" to indulge their lunacy.

_Vergere_ wrote: Yes! The question that we should really be asking! Thank you, Kyrin! Indeed, where is the dividing line? Where does one stop and the other start?

Do you know?
I don't.
Who does?

Let me ask you this... where are past, present, and future separate. They can be soon, here, and gone in a matter of milliseconds. Where does one draw the line? How small a fraction of time do we need to individualize them? Or is it all in our heads? Is time, then, irrelevant?

It isn't my point to discuss time, only to point out our way of thinking. We tend to split apart things that are meant to be One. OB1 made the example of two candles. Yes they appear separate. But cannot one candle light another? "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

Those terms are just descriptors we assign as a means to identify different eras. They are not magical and they are not mystical. We are all connected because we experience a common phenomenon we call time. But that connection does not mean we are melded into one thing. We are still individuals and we all still experience time in a subjective manner. It’s only when we can come together and agree on certain aspects of this experience that we can form terms like past present and future. And those terms are used as a matter of context. But they don’t exist outside of our own brains.

Same goes for the candles. There is nothing mystical about them, the fact one can light the other is a matter of physics. The second candle has a wick, fuel source, air is around it, and when the first candle provided heat all necessary conditions for ignition are met. Nothing magical and nowhere in that process does it require that the candles be considered one thing.

This works the exact same for any abstract concept, numbers, laws of logic, morality. None of these things exist as an absolute standard outside of our own brains. They are all experienced completely subjectively and they are all created from within our minds. And we can only utilize them because we agree on them as descriptors of the reality we experience. Once again, nothing magical or mystical in that and no requirement they exist as one thing.

I asked if there is a difference between spirit and mind, could you respond?

Deep question, OB1, and you assume I know the answer. What's your answer?

Id then like to ask where spirit and mind come from

Ever deeper we go. Who can possibly say?

I apologize for being ambiguous, but you have unanswerable questions, or at least questions I can't possibly answer for you. These are things you have to discover for yourself.

My advice: question everything. Come to no conclusions. Embrace the mystery.

_Vergere_ wrote: you have unanswerable questions, or at least questions I can't possibly answer for you. These are things you have to discover for yourself.

I think we can all agree that each one of us has to arrive to our own conclusions.

But I also think Ob1 was asking your conclusions.

Or at the very least how you "embrace the mystery"? What are your thoughts on the mind body issue?

I have no conclusions. There was a time when I did. I thought I had all the answers. But other people expressed their extreme disagreements with my philosophies, and I realized that we're all walking around in the dark in search of some faint light. Most people find it in religion, but for me, the conflict of religions that exist in my life tore me apart until I reached the conclusion that I CAN'T HAVE a conclusion. Why? Because it will be contradicted with someone else's. So who is right and who is wrong? I grew tired of trying to figure everything out.

This is the mystery I spoke of. The idea of NOT KNOWING. Some say that is the beginning of wisdom. It's a scary place, the void of ignorance. It's lonely, but also empowering.

May I ask why it is scary, lonely and empowering all in one? In the time that has made up your mind/spirit (i.e. every moment you have lived and interacted in) there has always been something you did not know. At what point in these moments that you can recall in your own mind can you see the shift between the emotions you stated above.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
kobos