Can gift giving be selfish?

_Vergere_ wrote: Giving anything to anyone is always selfish. Allow me to explain.

When one gives (or more to the point, helps others) it always has an effect on the giver. In a broader sense, considering that we are all a part of a whole, a piece of the universe in which we are united, what you give to others you give to yourself, because you and I, and everyone alive are ONE.

Can you clarify further? Because under this there would be no such thing as selflessness because that would involve sacrifice/giving. And if there is no selflessness how does the opposite exist? So I admit to being confused.

under this there would be no such thing as selflessness because that would involve sacrifice/giving. And if there is no selflessness how does the opposite exist?

Exactly the right question. The answer is the elimination of duality. Selfless/selfish, me/you, good/evil, light/dark...

I don't claim to have evolved beyond duality, but talking about it and putting it into practice certainly helps.

For me - holiday time is tough. What it seems like to my family is every one is way out of balance during these times. Just the way we perceive it. Going to family get togeather sand party’s and things can take its toll on us as a family with different morals and different practices - not wrong just different. My boy asks why can’t I run around like everyone else or do the same things... he’s beginning to understand but the complexity is that every one has so many different ways - how do I be me and allow others to enjoy them selfs during the holidays.? That’s one of those million dolla questions we must be able to answer for ourselfs. My hope is that we all find or make our balance this holiday season - so to answer the question directly - anything can be selfish - intent and applications make things selfish or not in my own practice. Happy holidays and may the Force be with you as you seek or make your balance of it.

_Vergere_ wrote: Giving anything to anyone is always selfish. Allow me to explain.

When one gives (or more to the point, helps others) it always has an effect on the giver. In a broader sense, considering that we are all a part of a whole, a piece of the universe in which we are united, what you give to others you give to yourself, because you and I, and everyone alive are ONE.

I have to say i disagree with practically every idea in this post lol. Nothing personal against you.

1) all actions “have an effect” on the person performing them, that doesnt mean a person cannot act in a selfess way. Being selfless means that you act for the benefit of the other regardless of the benefit or consequences to yourself. Maybe you will be rewarded with a good feeling or with social recognition but thats irrelevant to the original motive - which was the benefit of the other person.

2) we may be “connected” in any number of ways but we are not one identity and there is a huge separation between us. If you stub your toe, not only will it not hurt me but it might even make me laugh. Unless youre not in my field of vision when it happens, in which case i wont even know of it.

OB1Shinobi wrote: I have to say i disagree with practically every idea in this post lol. Nothing personal against you.

Perhaps our differences are merely linguistic. But let me ask you this: where do I end and you begin? Physically, of course you may simply look at your body and see where it ends. What about mentally? Spiritually? Can you see your mind? Can you see your spirit? How far do they reach? How limited are they? ARE they limited?

Almost everything we do is selfish to some degree. This primarily goes for planned actions - when we buy gifts for someone, we tend to have a deep-seated, partly natural expectation that or imagination that when the other person opens the present, that person's joy will make you happy as well. It's very hard work to control these expectations - in Buddhism this is a core concept (Right intention, right thought, right action). If all three of them are completely realized, selfishness is conquered.

However, I do believe that selfishness is innate to us as well, albeit on a different cognitive level - acting without hesitation, for example to save someone from a bad accident by instinctively pushing that person out of the path of an oncoming bus, could be considered truly selfless. This is also very unique to the human species. Similar phenomena can also be seen in other animals, however: the relationship between a mother (and sometimes also the father) and her child is typically a selfless one.

_Vergere_ wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: Can you see your mind? Can you see your spirit? How far do they reach? How limited are they? ARE they limited?

Yes they are absolutely limited in the sense they are not connected. Just as our bodies are limited so are these things. I cant experience your thoughts and if my spirit exists it cant feel your experiences from your point of view. What you are suggesting here is really just meaningless rhetoric.

My question would be... even if it is or isn't selfish... so what?

Is there a point to all of this dissecting other than finding a nitty label to describe the situation?

Manu wrote: My question would be... even if it is or isn't selfish... so what?

Is there a point to all of this dissecting other than finding a nitty label to describe the situation?

Lol, I guess it really doesn't matter. People will be people, and we can never truly understand the motives of other people or their rationale.

_Vergere_ wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: I have to say i disagree with practically every idea in this post lol. Nothing personal against you.

Perhaps our differences are merely linguistic. But let me ask you this: where do I end and you begin? Physically, of course you may simply look at your body and see where it ends. What about mentally? Spiritually? Can you see your mind? Can you see your spirit? How far do they reach? How limited are they? ARE they limited?

Kyrin explained the first part. We may be connected in some way but we are distinct; evidence is that dont know each others thoughts and cant jump into each others experiences, a a general rule.
If the light from two candles overlap, they might be connected but the candles are not ONE light- each is a light, in an of itself.

Now i have a question; do you just take it for granted that there is a difference between “mind” and “spirit”? Can you explain where one ends and the other begins? How do you know?