Jedi up

Arisaig wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Might be off topic but
“All this to say, to be a Jedi is to live up to something that is defined and refined through such a definition, and because of that refined view, it is not meant for everyone.”
With syncretic ability and choice - aren’t we as the individual allowed to define it ?
I totally understand the collective standards and common beliefs but does that make the other person not a Jedi if they don’t see eye to eye with me ? Hence the question - Jedi up - isn’t that some one else’s definition being imposed on some one else ?

One would think it should be up to the individual, but if everyone is allowed to define anything they want to, words and titles devolve into chaos. We have dictionaries to give us agreed upon definitions of words, not a personal idea of what a word means.

So, no, we shouldn't be allowed to redefine something that is already defined. Many people here have tried to redefine it, to change it from what it was and is for the sake of lowering the standard and fitting what they currently are, rather than making it something to continuously strive for.

Far more simply said then what I said, thank you.

Arisaig wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Might be off topic but
“All this to say, to be a Jedi is to live up to something that is defined and refined through such a definition, and because of that refined view, it is not meant for everyone.”
With syncretic ability and choice - aren’t we as the individual allowed to define it ?
I totally understand the collective standards and common beliefs but does that make the other person not a Jedi if they don’t see eye to eye with me ? Hence the question - Jedi up - isn’t that some one else’s definition being imposed on some one else ?

One would think it should be up to the individual, but if everyone is allowed to define anything they want to, words and titles devolve into chaos. We have dictionaries to give us agreed upon definitions of words, not a personal idea of what a word means.

So, no, we shouldn't be allowed to redefine something that is already defined. Many people here have tried to redefine it, to change it from what it was and is for the sake of lowering the standard and fitting what they currently are, rather than making it something to continuously strive for.

In order for something to dissolve into chaos; there must be a structure for it to lose integrity from. Here at the Temple, it started out for me a designated core lessons to get everyone on the same playing field but everyone's personal experiences and interpretations were different. [We] ,i say the term loosely as I myself have not done so yet, have all gone through the IP that is the core of the Jedi belief but as it goes from there it's very much based on the individual.
Zenchi, as a TM, your lessons for your apprentices are very different from Carlos, Senan, even Rosalyn. So as the individuals come up out of the IP their Apprenticeship changes with their TM. It's all based on the individual direction and decisions the individual makes. That's what makes it accessible to anyone, anywhere. As students come up through the Temple they can choose any path they wish, whether it be a more militant version, a passive version, or a less internet and more world involved version. And there are many side paths and quests that the individual can choose from along the way and what is learned throughout these adventures and lessons is what builds the Jedi character into the person. The release of self, and the taming of the Ego and acknowledgement of the world as a whole: experiencing the inherent worth OF ALL I believe is the core of Jediism. Beyond that, who are any of us to invalidate someone else's truth when none of us have the same lives?
We as humans are decidedly different in many platforms but the only thing we all have in common is that we are Human. Regardless of belief or religion, if we can bring ourselves all to the Human level before we start dictating truths for others the world would probably be a better place. Regardless of your truths and your opinions of WHAT Jediism is, I respect that yours is different than mine because as a HUMAN, we are nothing alike so how could our Jediism be the same?
Have a great day guys!

Athena_Undomiel wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Might be off topic but
“All this to say, to be a Jedi is to live up to something that is defined and refined through such a definition, and because of that refined view, it is not meant for everyone.”
With syncretic ability and choice - aren’t we as the individual allowed to define it ?
I totally understand the collective standards and common beliefs but does that make the other person not a Jedi if they don’t see eye to eye with me ? Hence the question - Jedi up - isn’t that some one else’s definition being imposed on some one else ?

One would think it should be up to the individual, but if everyone is allowed to define anything they want to, words and titles devolve into chaos. We have dictionaries to give us agreed upon definitions of words, not a personal idea of what a word means.

So, no, we shouldn't be allowed to redefine something that is already defined. Many people here have tried to redefine it, to change it from what it was and is for the sake of lowering the standard and fitting what they currently are, rather than making it something to continuously strive for.

In order for something to dissolve into chaos; there must be a structure for it to lose integrity from. Here at the Temple, it started out for me a designated core lessons to get everyone on the same playing field but everyone's personal experiences and interpretations were different. [We] ,i say the term loosely as I myself have not done so yet, have all gone through the IP that is the core of the Jedi belief but as it goes from there it's very much based on the individual.
Zenchi, as a TM, your lessons for your apprentices are very different from Carlos, Senan, even Rosalyn. So as the individuals come up out of the IP their Apprenticeship changes with their TM. It's all based on the individual direction and decisions the individual makes. That's what makes it accessible to anyone, anywhere. As students come up through the Temple they can choose any path they wish, whether it be a more militant version, a passive version, or a less internet and more world involved version. And there are many side paths and quests that the individual can choose from along the way and what is learned throughout these adventures and lessons is what builds the Jedi character into the person. The release of self, and the taming of the Ego and acknowledgement of the world as a whole: experiencing the inherent worth OF ALL I believe is the core of Jediism. Beyond that, who are any of us to invalidate someone else's truth when none of us have the same lives?
We as humans are decidedly different in many platforms but the only thing we all have in common is that we are Human. Regardless of belief or religion, if we can bring ourselves all to the Human level before we start dictating truths for others the world would probably be a better place. Regardless of your truths and your opinions of WHAT Jediism is, I respect that yours is different than mine because as a HUMAN, we are nothing alike so how could our Jediism be the same?
Have a great day guys!

Wasn't Zenchi that you were replying to, but myself.

Yes, beyond the IP is can get more personal. Sometimes not so much, but for my own experience it became an exercise in self reflection, stacking and reforging the blade that is myself, and training to better be able to serve others always, to be an example of what a Jedi could be. I'm not saying I'm perfect, far from it, but I've broken and reforged myself many times over this past year as an Apprentice to Zenchi, and have come out stronger and better each time. You'll better understand it when you undertake your own apprenticeship one day.

Never said we all had to have the same Jediism or Jedi Path, but that many people lower the standard, even for themselves, to be a bar well within reach rather than one trained for constantly yet never reached, save for maybe a finger brushing of said bar once or twice in a lifetime. So, to your question, they're different because I hold my bar well out of reach, a goal to strive for constantly, rather than something someone can sign up to attain.

EDIT: As for the human part, yes, we are all human. But to be Jedi is to not continue as we are, but to strive for more. If I wanted to be less than I am now, I would never have taken the mantle of Jedi up, or would have at least put it down a long time ago. We are all unique, indeed, including how we go about training to become Jedi, and in connection, Knights. But to define it to our own standards is to lower the standard already set before us.

Athena_Undomiel wrote: In order for something to dissolve into chaos; there must be a structure for it to lose integrity from. Here at the Temple, it started out for me a designated core lessons to get everyone on the same playing field but everyone's personal experiences and interpretations were different. [We] ,i say the term loosely as I myself have not done so yet, have all gone through the IP that is the core of the Jedi belief but as it goes from there it's very much based on the individual.

Just to clarify, the IP is NOT the core of the Jedi belief, but rather a process to start an individual in deep thinking and to start opening ones mind to the possibilities, as well as to get an idea of where you stand philosophically and morally as a resume for apprenticeship with knighthood. The "core" of jedi belief if a thing exists would be the doctrine etc.

Athena_Undomiel wrote: Zenchi, as a TM, your lessons for your apprentices are very different from Carlos, Senan, even Rosalyn. So as the individuals come up out of the IP their Apprenticeship changes with their TM. It's all based on the individual direction and decisions the individual makes. That's what makes it accessible to anyone, anywhere. As students come up through the Temple they can choose any path they wish, whether it be a more militant version, a passive version, or a less internet and more world involved version. And there are many side paths and quests that the individual can choose from along the way and what is learned throughout these adventures and lessons is what builds the Jedi character into the person. The release of self, and the taming of the Ego and acknowledgement of the world as a whole: experiencing the inherent worth OF ALL I believe is the core of Jediism. Beyond that, who are any of us to invalidate someone else's truth when none of us have the same lives?
We as humans are decidedly different in many platforms but the only thing we all have in common is that we are Human. Regardless of belief or religion, if we can bring ourselves all to the Human level before we start dictating truths for others the world would probably be a better place. Regardless of your truths and your opinions of WHAT Jediism is, I respect that yours is different than mine because as a HUMAN, we are nothing alike so how could our Jediism be the same?
Have a great day guys!

By recognizing the simple truth no one wants to recognize, sometimes despite everything you learn here and how great members of this community are, perhaps your path is close, but not actually Jediism, but rather something else. It shouldn't be causing an exclusion by any means because we are all in fact on the same planet, but trying to lump yourself under something your not just damages what it actually is imo.

Arisaig, yes I am hoping that Zenchi will continue the discussion on this thread and as his student you know very well that your Master's lesson differ greatly from other Knights here.
I understand fully that the IP is more or less a jumping post, but being able to acknowledge that the interactions we have with each other here shift and mold our definition of Jediism is the point. Each apprentice is as different as their Master, that does not mean that one is more superior than the others.
I am glad that your goal and drive comes from a desire to be a stronger Jedi. That's outstanding and I see you accomplishing your goals (Graduating) And your progress through your individual saber training. You are doing it all right by your path. There is no complaint or disagreement here. Well done Arisaig, keep pushing yourself. The fruits of your labors will be evident.
Be well.

Tellahane wrote:

Athena_Undomiel wrote: In order for something to dissolve into chaos; there must be a structure for it to lose integrity from. Here at the Temple, it started out for me a designated core lessons to get everyone on the same playing field but everyone's personal experiences and interpretations were different. [We] ,i say the term loosely as I myself have not done so yet, have all gone through the IP that is the core of the Jedi belief but as it goes from there it's very much based on the individual.

Just to clarify, the IP is NOT the core of the Jedi belief, but rather a process to start an individual in deep thinking and to start opening ones mind to the possibilities, as well as to get an idea of where you stand philosophically and morally as a resume for apprenticeship with knighthood. The "core" of jedi belief if a thing exists would be the doctrine etc.

Athena_Undomiel wrote: Zenchi, as a TM, your lessons for your apprentices are very different from Carlos, Senan, even Rosalyn. So as the individuals come up out of the IP their Apprenticeship changes with their TM. It's all based on the individual direction and decisions the individual makes. That's what makes it accessible to anyone, anywhere. As students come up through the Temple they can choose any path they wish, whether it be a more militant version, a passive version, or a less internet and more world involved version. And there are many side paths and quests that the individual can choose from along the way and what is learned throughout these adventures and lessons is what builds the Jedi character into the person. The release of self, and the taming of the Ego and acknowledgement of the world as a whole: experiencing the inherent worth OF ALL I believe is the core of Jediism. Beyond that, who are any of us to invalidate someone else's truth when none of us have the same lives?
We as humans are decidedly different in many platforms but the only thing we all have in common is that we are Human. Regardless of belief or religion, if we can bring ourselves all to the Human level before we start dictating truths for others the world would probably be a better place. Regardless of your truths and your opinions of WHAT Jediism is, I respect that yours is different than mine because as a HUMAN, we are nothing alike so how could our Jediism be the same?
Have a great day guys!

By recognizing the simple truth no one wants to recognize, sometimes despite everything you learn here and how great members of this community are, perhaps your path is close, but not actually Jediism, but rather something else. It shouldn't be causing an exclusion by any means because we are all in fact on the same planet, but trying to lump yourself under something your not just damages what it actually is imo.

To clarify Tellahane, I am aware that the IP is a jumping point, a place to get the thought juices flowing. Perhaps core beliefs was the wrong term to use and I apologize for the confusion. However, due to the fact that EVERY Knight and Every Apprentice has completed the IP means that everyone started in the same place. In the IP we are all neutral. For some it's a breeze, for others a struggle. The amount of time it takes one to get through the IP does not make someone more or less Jedi.
You say that lumping myself in with a collective doesn't mean my path is Jedi...you could be right, I very rarely consider myself Jedi, I have too much hate for what I see Jedi as. But what or who dictates what another's path to truth is?

Athena_Undomiel wrote: To clarify Tellahane, I am aware that the IP is a jumping point, a place to get the thought juices flowing. Perhaps core beliefs was the wrong term to use and I apologize for the confusion. However, due to the fact that EVERY Knight and Every Apprentice has completed the IP means that everyone started in the same place. In the IP we are all neutral. For some it's a breeze, for others a struggle. The amount of time it takes one to get through the IP does not make someone more or less Jedi.
You say that lumping myself in with a collective doesn't mean my path is Jedi...you could be right, I very rarely consider myself Jedi, I have too much hate for what I see Jedi as. But what or who dictates what another's path to truth is?

To further clarify, the clarify, of the clarify,(lots of clarifying), I wasn't necessairly talking about your specific path but in general

Arisaig wrote: But to be Jedi is to not continue as we are, but to strive for more. If I wanted to be less than I am now, I would never have taken the mantle of Jedi up, or would have at least put it down a long time ago. We are all unique, indeed, including how we go about training to become Jedi, and in connection, Knights. But to define it to our own standards is to lower the standard already set before us.

I feel that discussing this issues we often find ourselves in the dichotomy of A vs B, where:

A =
Make your own path
Jediism is what you make of it
No one owns truth
If you find the Buddha on the road...
Krishnamurti's inside-out approach

B =
Strive to live a path laid out by others
Jediism has clearly defined rules, and you either embody them or you don't
There is a truth, and people are either facing it or running from it
Measurble standards to live up to

It is fairly obvious that in the post-hippie era of find your own truth and social justice / progressiveness, there is a strong leaning to protect approach A as politically correct, and that can get annoying for people who lean towards approach B. And if you've read Krishnamurti's Freedom from the Known, it well explains the risks of approach B and how it can lead to fear, self-righteousness and aggressiveness via exclusion.

I feel there probably is some sort of middle ground.

Personally, I agree with the "spirit of the law" thing, where approach B defines generally held values but not specific beliefs, which fall under approach A.

Example, a generally held value is that most Jedi strive to better themselves. A specific belief is what exactly requires self-betterment.

Thus, no two Jedi are exactly alike. But there should be enough commonalities in general values to make the label worthwhile.

Manu wrote:

Arisaig wrote: But to be Jedi is to not continue as we are, but to strive for more. If I wanted to be less than I am now, I would never have taken the mantle of Jedi up, or would have at least put it down a long time ago. We are all unique, indeed, including how we go about training to become Jedi, and in connection, Knights. But to define it to our own standards is to lower the standard already set before us.

I feel that discussing this issues we often find ourselves in the dichotomy of A vs B, where:

A =
Make your own path
Jediism is what you make of it
No one owns truth
If you find the Buddha on the road...
Krishnamurti's inside-out approach

B =
Strive to live a path laid out by others
Jediism has clearly defined rules, and you either embody them or you don't
There is a truth, and people are either facing it or running from it
Measurble standards to live up to

It is fairly obvious that in the post-hippie era of find your own truth and social justice / progressiveness, there is a strong leaning to protect approach A as politically correct, and that can get annoying for people who lean towards approach B. And if you've read Krishnamurti's Freedom from the Known, it well explains the risks of approach B and how it can lead to fear, self-righteousness and aggressiveness via exclusion.

I feel there probably is some sort of middle ground.

Personally, I agree with the "spirit of the law" thing, where approach B defines generally held values but not specific beliefs, which fall under approach A.

Example, a generally held value is that most Jedi strive to better themselves. A specific belief is what exactly requires self-betterment.

Thus, no two Jedi are exactly alike. But there should be enough commonalities in general values to make the label worthwhile.

Both can exist - it’s up to the individual then... hu?

I might be cynical (i'm being generous to myself there)

The Path A people are probably a bunch of arrogant gits who should really ask if they have any hope of treading a useful path on their own and perhaps should go find someone wiser than them to guide them on their way*.

The Path B people are probably cowards, and build a fortress of rules and examples and inane little phrases to avoid having to ever take risks and make their own decisions.



*The path A people are also quite possibly the more fragile of the two, because they're so worried about losing their sense of "self" that they can't bear the thought of "subjecting" themselves to a higher being/organisation/set of rules what-have-you.



Perhaps as a fun little game (like the masters serving servants at christmas) folk could try living the other concept a few weeks (and try to embrace it, not just wait a few weeks and say "Well I tried it and my life didn't become magical, so it must be rubbish" )