Do we "think" in Meditation? [split from Manu's thread on Witchcraft]

Manu wrote:

Connor L. wrote: What I DO have beef with is here supposed authority on meditation. She states that meditation doesn't involve thinking... but, it does in every circumstance. Perhaps she means that we aren't consciously making constructs with our mind (hence, brain doing = thinking).. but, even then... I don't think the wording is good. One can never clear the mind. One can only be with the mind itself. That's where focus is actually born. If she had said that meditation involves honing thinking, then I would have been more lenient on my criticism.

This is certainly worth its own topic, I would be very interested in learning more about focus as it pertains to magickal work. My experience with meditation is more related to what this author describes. And while I realize "thinking" is not turned off, it feels as if it is something different, as if I step out of the typical thinking of observing/evaluating into a different kind of thinking of maybe... feeling/being? I can't quite describe it.

In my experience, focus and anti-focus are the only two avenues where spiritual work is possible.

If one is focused, then one can actively work on the conscious mind. It can bring you stability, like grounding yourself before an intense, physical experience.

If one is anti-focused (or extremely fuzzy and not thinking), then one enters the sort of semi/sub-conscious state. Sometimes known as trance states. A lot of people do subconscious (magical) energy work down there... I've never been able to experience it.. SO, I have no authority to speak on it.

I think most of my best work on exterior things is when I am hyper focused; my meditation and my magick are both stronger at helping me solve things outside myself if I laser-beam onto the situation at hand. It's a very "yang" feeling thing to me, to actively go after a thought that way.

Conversely, I find that my best work on interior things--personal problems, faults in myself, etc.--are done in that anti-focus or "fuzzy" place. It feels more "yin" to me, passively allowing the problem to solve itself while I watch in awe.

My explanation of meditation would be that it is not about the cessation of thinking but rather the gaining of the awareness of our thinking as well as our actions and reactions. Its a state of total focus on specific aspects of our consciousness that we choose. In deep alpha states we are focused inward on the self and those thoughts in our minds, allowing ourselves to explore our feelings on an issue and make decisions on how we might like to proceed, i.e. best courses of action.

We can also be in Gamma states where we are focused outwardly and in a super-conscious state which gives us an awareness of our actions. This is a sort of "moving meditation" in which we achieve a heightened cognizance of our surroundings and of our interactions. For example when we get angry we become aware of that anger and are able to both be angry and step outside ourselves to evaluate that anger and thus be able to make decisions cognitively that will allow us to be constructive (and not destructive) in the expression of our anger.

There are many forms of meditation. The experience of no-self, or lack of ego, or lack of perception, etc. can be had during meditation, and in many of those experiences I'd say that there is no thinking involved -- or mind, really.

I certainly do.

Thoughts and awareness of my physical state.

Thoughts adrift unbidden in my consciousness.

A silent and uncritical presence noticing those thoughts.

I think it honestly depends on how you meditate. If I'm thinking about events throughout my day that brought negative emotion, so that I may clear it from my being, I typically think to myself. But if I am simply relaxing my body and attuning myself to the force in and around me, I typically think of nothing but the force.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: We can also be in Gamma states where we are focused outwardly and in a super-conscious state which gives us an awareness of our actions. This is a sort of "moving meditation" in which we achieve a heightened cognizance of our surroundings and of our interactions. For example when we get angry we become aware of that anger and are able to both be angry and step outside ourselves to evaluate that anger and thus be able to make decisions cognitively that will allow us to be constructive (and not destructive) in the expression of our anger.

Is there a way to know what kind of "state" of brain we're in? Gamma, Delta, etc.

TheDude wrote: There are many forms of meditation. The experience of no-self, or lack of ego, or lack of perception, etc. can be had during meditation, and in many of those experiences I'd say that there is no thinking involved -- or mind, really.

Hm. Lack of perception? As in separating from the physical body? Losing the senses? Could you describe this a little more?

Connor L. wrote:

TheDude wrote: There are many forms of meditation. The experience of no-self, or lack of ego, or lack of perception, etc. can be had during meditation, and in many of those experiences I'd say that there is no thinking involved -- or mind, really.

Hm. Lack of perception? As in separating from the physical body? Losing the senses? Could you describe this a little more?

I wrote briefly about this, which was made into its own thread in the meditation forum. It is a bit hard to explain in-depth, and I've only tried to teach it to one other person (even that took a few months of regular practice).
I'm currently on my phone, but later I will expand on what I mean in that thread, and if you have any more questions about it after that feel free to message me about it.

Connor L. wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: We can also be in Gamma states where we are focused outwardly and in a super-conscious state which gives us an awareness of our actions. This is a sort of "moving meditation" in which we achieve a heightened cognizance of our surroundings and of our interactions. For example when we get angry we become aware of that anger and are able to both be angry and step outside ourselves to evaluate that anger and thus be able to make decisions cognitively that will allow us to be constructive (and not destructive) in the expression of our anger.

Is there a way to know what kind of "state" of brain we're in? Gamma, Delta, etc.

Biofeedback of some kind?

Sure, but I wonder if anybody has made up a chart of that. "If you feel like ____, then you might be in Delta state"

Like this?

Hmmm. Interesting. I need to do some more research on this. I'll be back... later. lol.

Connor L. wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: We can also be in Gamma states where we are focused outwardly and in a super-conscious state which gives us an awareness of our actions. This is a sort of "moving meditation" in which we achieve a heightened cognizance of our surroundings and of our interactions. For example when we get angry we become aware of that anger and are able to both be angry and step outside ourselves to evaluate that anger and thus be able to make decisions cognitively that will allow us to be constructive (and not destructive) in the expression of our anger.

Is there a way to know what kind of "state" of brain we're in? Gamma, Delta, etc.

Absolutely there is. It's about our personal awareness in conjunction with our will. This is the beginnings of Magick.

Attempting to relate to awareness at some more discrete level for me is achieved by understanding awareness in groups associated to their temporal centre of gravity in ones focus, whether its more on the past, present or future, to offer some nature as to how they might flow through different parts of the nervous system and therefore improve efficiencies in them functioning, some useful associations I use at the base level are. and note the various terms only bring some small measure of utility to bridge thoughts, feelings, and ideas;

Past - Orbit - Contemplation - Ziran - Purify - Predominantly conceptual thinking
Now - Spin - Calm Abiding Meditation - Samatha/ShikantazaZuowang - Access - Predominantly feeling and/or no thinking except awareness
Future - Charge - Visualization - WuWei - Strengthen - Predominantly visual-spatial thinking

Noting all efforts are to improve access to the now, but also practises in the other areas need to improve function in the other areas as well so the whole thing can continue to make progress as progress is made. I have the nervous system mediating the spiritual, and the body mediating the nervous system, and so along those same lines the body is very important as well, yes that means health and behaviour, as well as those thoughts and meditative efforts.

Now what is missing of course in those approaches in imagination
This then tends to remain as the familiar manifested nature of a more base awareness, and seen in more complex behaviour as being curious. Hence why dreams are so imaginative, because they are a peeled back more raw flow of awareness.

So while I think we think as a function of awareness or indeed even being alive, the extent of thinking really can benefit from being defined into types and quantities of thinking, which at the lowest level for me is that orbit, spin and charge concept, alluding to some concept of flow in some base, most pure, nature of awareness. From that simple construct then other patterns can further serve to orient around the progression of awareness in complexity to derive efficiencies and ideally capabilities not otherwise easily accessed.

Wait a minute, we have a thread on witchcraft on which I haven't wreaked any havoc yet? :ohmy: :silly: