Fact Checking Daniel M. Jones and The Church of Jediism

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Yes it makes sense. I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately though, we are forced to label those pictures and the labels that have been chosen here are ones of fictional origin.

The Tao attempts to describe ones perception that some esoteric essence exists and binds the universe. The Tao is a placeholder for that essence. It does not adequately describe that essence because descriptions can never adequately convey ones innate perception of what that essence truly encompasses. But its the best we have.

However what happens when we take up new terminology that describes that essence from a fictional source, we put yet another layer between ourselves and that essence - a fictional layer that cant be removed. Spinner and I have been discussing that. People see that and recognize that layer and it degrades the experience for many of them. I think that is one of the reason that Jediism is looked on by many as less than a serious pursuit.

My question is, how does one get beyond that? My pondering of all this, is simply an exercise in wondering what would need to be done to bring Jediism to the mainstream and allow it to stand on its own without the need for the fiction? I think people like Daniel Jones, as misguided as he may be, may be onto something.

I wonder how you tell people your philosophic worldview without using any reference to the fiction whatsoever and can that description ever be generic enough to be agreed upon by any Jedi practicing today? I think if Jediism cant achieve that in some way, it will never be truly accepted as a legitimate philosophy and instead be relegated to the fringes forever.

I think if there is a universal truth to help maybe sort that out its that ever since the creation of language itself, which is a theory at best, everything we teach to children, everything we teach to each other, teach ourselves is all based off of personal experiences. I know that when I jump gravity will bring me down because I've either seen it or done it. I know that 2 + 2 =4 because I've looked at 2 apples and added 2 more and it ended up equaling 4. But there is nothing that actually can define any of anything we know to be actually 100% true. That being said fundamentally, we learn based off first person, 2nd person, or 3rd person experiences.

If I managed to find someone who knew NOTHING of movies, or star wars or anything, and told them I followed Jedi of a religion, and they spent a week with me, their idea of what a Jedi is like would be entirely 100% of what they witnessed me do, how I act, my choices, my philosophies and so on, and it would have nothing to do with star wars at all because they never heard of it, and perhaps for this scenario I never explained it.

So I think to not necessarily answer your question but suggest a thought process, the only way to evolve Jediism is to separate "distinctly" the Jedi from the movies and the Jedi that we follow in the real world, even if they carry the same name. We need to be seen for what we do, how we act, and so on, and not by what someone else saw in a movie. Ultimately that would be easier if there were no more star wars movies and other things that just make it more difficult but it just is what it is. We need to be more clearly defined for our differences based on our personal examples and experiences.

As for my comments on the leadership of this place, respectfully I would disagree with your statement. These instances are not far and wide, but run rampant. My latest example is the misunderstanding you and I just had. No communication caused distress in a thread.

That's where I got that from. You complained about Leadership abusng their positions and then placed that as an example. I apologize for how that lines up for myself. I don't see another way to see that, until you better explained yourself.

As for the question about you wanting others to match your definition of Jedi, that's how you are coming off Kyrin. When you repeatedly expect others to confess and admit your truth is correct, that's how it comes off. That might not be your intent, but based off of myself and others responses it seems global.

You complained about communication. Yet you yourself struggle to make clear what you mean to say. Let us all slow down and truly understand the points of those whom we speak with, myself included. Communication is never a one way street.

JLSpinner wrote:

As for my comments on the leadership of this place, respectfully I would disagree with your statement. These instances are not far and wide, but run rampant. My latest example is the misunderstanding you and I just had. No communication caused distress in a thread.

That's where I got that from. You complained about Leadership abusng their positions and then placed that as an example. I apologize for how that lines up for myself. I don't see another way to see that, until you better explained yourself.

As for the question about you wanting others to match your definition of Jedi, that's how you are coming off Kyrin. When you repeatedly expect others to confess and admit your truth is correct, that's how it comes off. That might not be your intent, but based off of myself and others responses it seems global.

You complained about communication. Yet you yourself struggle to make clear what you mean to say. Let us all slow down and truly understand the points of those whom we speak with, myself included. Communication is never a one way street.

Wow dude, your way off base and quite frankly out of line. Once again, there is a world of difference between lack of comms and abuse. I never said anything about abuse.

And I have also never defined what a Jedi is supposed to be or tried to impose my definition of that on others.

I convey my points quite clearly. I'm sorry you are having such trouble comprehending them. Sorry that the nature of debate is the defense of your position but your just sounding butthurt when you continue to just make stuff up.

Tellahane, I can get behind your thought process. I think you are right that if you taught an alien about jediism or someone similar they would get it. Unfortunately we live in a world where everyone knows what a movie Jedi is.

So the question then becomes how do Jedi of real life go about separating themselves from movie jedi? Especially since they have been perceived as only serving themselves and not the community, both spiritual and secular and if, as you say, you try to separate your action from your titles? If Jedi don't evangelize are they not doomed to the Fringe?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane, I can get behind your thought process. I think you are right that if you taught an alien about jediism or someone similar they would get it. Unfortunately we live in a world where everyone knows what a movie Jedi is.

Everyone is a stretch, theres quite a few people I know who never watched it, granted they all live in the nursing home, or are fairly young, or just don't care for that kind of life and live out on a farm, but safe to say a good amount of 1st/2nd world living societies likely know. 3rd world countries are probably a fair bet exception.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: So the question then becomes how do Jedi of real life go about separating themselves from movie jedi? Especially since they have been perceived as only serving themselves and not the community, both spiritual and secular and if, as you say, you try to separate your action from your titles? If Jedi don't evangelize are they not doomed to the Fringe?

I guess the first question I ask is there actual doom in fringing? It's quite possible that Jediism will always remain a minority population, irregardless of efforts, and perhaps that will end up being it's purpose in life. Those who are close to me and see me away from the forums on a day to day basis know me and often explain me as the person who almost never sais no to helping out this or helping out that or whatever, and always signs up waaay to much on his plate. But those tasks are usually not selfish tasks, volunteering for one ambulance service, working for another full time, while still doing my main income job at home to keep the bills paid(probably the only selfish thing I do), while doing everything here, while also running a small company for a friend of mine as an employee who is using the income for his bills and way of life. Do I go around saying this is what a Jedi does no, I just go and be me, and people use whatever titles they want to use to describe me, and usually, unless I'm generally a "good hard working guy".

I don't go around telling people I do all these things because I'm a Jedi, I just do them because its part of my belief and life philosophy, and if someone were to ask, and they have before I do explain I follow Jediism and I'll go into the details and they thought it was creepy at first but after explaining it was fine, they said it all made sense and haven't really talked to me about it since. The title isn't as important as the work at least in my mind. If people come seeking I'll answer up and help and teach and what have you, but I'm not gonna throw it around in everyone's faces for sake of publicity or overall religious growth. People who need the path are often seeking it, people who are satisfied where they are, don't need it in their face being invasive.

We just simply spread by doing and experiencing and sharing when asked, making ourselves available to be found and continuing on. It may be a slow process but its a process.

No i don't think there is any inherant doom in remaining in the Fringes and maybe your right that it's destined to remain there. If Jedi are cool with that then more power to them. I guess that brings me back around to my original question then. If that is the case, that its ok to remain a fringe following and the works are more important than the titles, why does it matter to you what Daniel jones does? Why does it upset you that he made a poor showing. It does not affect your mission in the slightest does it? If titles don't matter?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: No i don't think there is any inherant doom in remaining in the Fringes and maybe your right that it's destined to remain there. If Jedi are cool with that then more power to them. I guess that brings me back around to my original question then. If that is the case, that its ok to remain a fringe following and the works are more important than the titles, why does it matter to you what Daniel jones does? Why does it upset you that he made a poor showing. It does not affect your mission in the slightest does it? If titles don't matter?

It comes down to the difference in individual beliefs, we all like you and me have different ways of viewing jediism, and some have more attachments to the titles then others. When I look at, such as a perfect example the muslim world is treated by a majority mass. Even though there is a proportional minority of radical muslims causing a lot of the problems in the world, its easy for....less educated people to pass judgement on all who carry the title.

So when I do see "members" of the "jedi community" who carry the title, act in ways that might trigger the overall view of Jediism to be some negative view of some kind, I worry in that those who are just coming into Jediism, or following variant individual beliefs that don't quite align to my own may be treated with some form of hostility at some point, verbal or otherwise. It's a concern and compassion for the overall community I guess if I had to put it down on paper as something generic.

No butthurt Kyrin. Not at all. Actually I've been chuckling through our conversation. The issue here is semantics. Since we can't see eye to eye here I will bow out. Please meditate on our conversation. I will pm you to talk further as this topic is fairly well derailed.

But Tellahane, I don't know, doesn't that seem sorta oxymoronic? Maybe that's not the right word but in any event it sounds like you strive for quality not quantity in the movement. Would you really want paper Jedi? I think you would agree that if someone truly saw the power manifest in their life that spoke to them in a personal way they would see past the bull. A true trial to prove worthyness.

What really defines a Jedi anyway, another issue. Daniel jones consides himself a jedi. Maybe, in your opinion, misguided but what if he is really convinced in his mind he's a founder, what if the media has gotten to him and he's justified things in such a way that he truly believes what he says?Maybe he thinks groups that came before his were not really true Jedi. Would he be Wrong? Do you have the right to tell him he's wrong?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: But Tellahane, I don't know, doesn't that seem sorta oxymoronic? Maybe that's not the right word but in any event it sounds like you strive for quality not quantity in the movement. Would you really want paper Jedi? I think you would agree that if someone truly saw the power manifest in their life that spoke to them in a personal way they would see past the bull. A true trial to prove worthyness.

I do strive for quality over quantity

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: What really defines a Jedi anyway, another issue. Daniel jones consides himself a jedi. Maybe, in your opinion, misguided but what if he is really convinced in his mind he's a founder, what if the media has gotten to him and he's justified things in such a way that he truly believes what he says?Maybe he thinks groups that came before his were not really true Jedi. Would he be Wrong? Do you have the right to tell him he's wrong?

Welcome to the great debate amongst all the Jedi communities, what is the definition ultimately of what Jedi is, and how everyone has such a difference in it, there is no common denominator...that is visible yet...and any attempt to try and form one usually causes such big debates that they break down into nothing productive.

I think, as a theory only, we will see in Jediism what we see in christian/catholic beliefs in that there will be different denominations in it, of which the second you mention that everyone unanimously will start saying how ridiculous that is, but yet here we are.